Wraf Abuse!
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Wraf Abuse!
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Sexual Harrasment
Is there a non sequiter in the argument to revise the system? Had the respondants in the survey attempted to use the extant system, or did they choose not to complain because of other concerns (fear of career reprisals, ineffectiveness of the 'system', or a perception that the incident did not warrant reporting?). It is, nonetheless, a chilling report which will have far-reaching consequences on personnel management within the Services in general and the RAF in particular.
I can hear the usual calls of 'this is PC gone too for!' Grow up guys - we are in the 21st Century and anyone in the Services, and elsewhere, for that matter, should have the right to work and enjoy their life without fear of harrasment (a tenet of the UN Charter (1946), by the way). Let's drop the sad crew-room banter and think how you would feel if it was your wife/girlfriend (if, that is, you have one) that was subjected to such abuse. Not so funny, is it?
CC
I can hear the usual calls of 'this is PC gone too for!' Grow up guys - we are in the 21st Century and anyone in the Services, and elsewhere, for that matter, should have the right to work and enjoy their life without fear of harrasment (a tenet of the UN Charter (1946), by the way). Let's drop the sad crew-room banter and think how you would feel if it was your wife/girlfriend (if, that is, you have one) that was subjected to such abuse. Not so funny, is it?
CC
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Looks like redress policy will soon be challenged in the high courts
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/p...post?id=277373
It is worthy of note that whilst people experience unacceptable behaviour, the majority tolerate it and do not complain especially because they feel it will not be taken seriously or will effect their career.
That factor is about to be tested in the court, with members of the Armed Foerces planning to appeal for a judicial review of the MoD redress procedures, which they claim have allowed a culture of bullying and abuse to take hold in all three services. One member of the paratroop regiment is to make a catalogue of claims that he was abused and bullied into leaving the Army.
Butt the crux of his complaint to be served in legal papers this week will say that his real problems began when he complained
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/p...post?id=277373
It is worthy of note that whilst people experience unacceptable behaviour, the majority tolerate it and do not complain especially because they feel it will not be taken seriously or will effect their career.
That factor is about to be tested in the court, with members of the Armed Foerces planning to appeal for a judicial review of the MoD redress procedures, which they claim have allowed a culture of bullying and abuse to take hold in all three services. One member of the paratroop regiment is to make a catalogue of claims that he was abused and bullied into leaving the Army.
Butt the crux of his complaint to be served in legal papers this week will say that his real problems began when he complained
Last edited by the_grand_dad; 23rd Jan 2005 at 12:29.
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Norvenmunky, casper and pohm
Sexual harassment rarely has anything to do with sexual attraction and everything to do with the abuse of a power relationship and bullying. The bully merely uses matters sexual as the weapon rather than violence or the threat of violence.
It does the RAF no credit whatsoever and the need to be rid of it has sod all to do with being PC and everything to do with civilized respect for colleagues.
As to 'mingers', I suggest you grow up. You will eventually learn that beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. After all, one of the sexiest women in the world is a 67 year old granny: http://www.askmen.com/women/singer/27c_tina_turner.html just as the reputedly sexiest man in the world is also a senior citizen (Shir Shean Connery).
Sexual harassment rarely has anything to do with sexual attraction and everything to do with the abuse of a power relationship and bullying. The bully merely uses matters sexual as the weapon rather than violence or the threat of violence.
It does the RAF no credit whatsoever and the need to be rid of it has sod all to do with being PC and everything to do with civilized respect for colleagues.
As to 'mingers', I suggest you grow up. You will eventually learn that beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. After all, one of the sexiest women in the world is a 67 year old granny: http://www.askmen.com/women/singer/27c_tina_turner.html just as the reputedly sexiest man in the world is also a senior citizen (Shir Shean Connery).
What a load of pious, uptight nonsense!
I think some on this thread are taking themselves too seriously. I have been in the military (full-time) for approx 5 years, and I have seen no scope for harassment of any kind.
NOBODY tolerates it, I repeat NOBODY. EVERYONE knows their rights these days, from the hairiest chiefs right down to the spotty 16 year-old school leavers.
If you can't have a little black humour here and there, what can you have?
I think some on this thread are taking themselves too seriously. I have been in the military (full-time) for approx 5 years, and I have seen no scope for harassment of any kind.
NOBODY tolerates it, I repeat NOBODY. EVERYONE knows their rights these days, from the hairiest chiefs right down to the spotty 16 year-old school leavers.
If you can't have a little black humour here and there, what can you have?
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I have been in full time for over 17 years. I have seen good honest humour but I have also seen huge amounts of abuse of rank, mainly by Officers. and then the abuse of power to cover it up. so lets not think we live in the a world where It never happens.
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Interesting views here.
I have just completed 22 years in the RAF and believe me I have witnessed in my time some unspeakable acts of bullying and harrassment.
As a young LAC I witnessed females sexually harrassed by lecherous SNCOs and work colleagues; these young girls didn't know who to turn to half the time, were scared sh!tless of the perceived repurcussions, and so simply left. Even in my basic training our Flight JNCO used to roll into the block sh!tfaced after the NAAFI shut and throw his weight around. Nobody said anything because it was all too difficult and after all we were just trainees so who would believe us anyway?
Organisations like the Armed Forces have always unwittingly allowed some of the misfits of society to hide and wreak whatever emotional havoc they can on the vulnerable by virtue of their superiority in rank. Yes things are changing and people do know their rights better but astonishingly there are still large numbers of people in authority who pay lip service to the whole EO/E&D thing. You only have to read some of the bleatings on these fora to see that, and disgustingly it seems that the majority of posters are currently serving commissioned officers!
I myself have been victim of an officers 'wit', he regretted it very quickly when I redressed him and won. However I know it stuffed up my career and the whole nasty experience altered my outlook on the Service permanently, it changed my perspective and destroyed any enthusiasm and loyalty I once had so I have now gone.
Yes things are improving but remember what may be black humour or banter to one may be something very different to an other. Get with the programme gentlemen, this is serious stuff and not for flippancy. Some of the comments here have no place in a modern RAF.
I have just completed 22 years in the RAF and believe me I have witnessed in my time some unspeakable acts of bullying and harrassment.
As a young LAC I witnessed females sexually harrassed by lecherous SNCOs and work colleagues; these young girls didn't know who to turn to half the time, were scared sh!tless of the perceived repurcussions, and so simply left. Even in my basic training our Flight JNCO used to roll into the block sh!tfaced after the NAAFI shut and throw his weight around. Nobody said anything because it was all too difficult and after all we were just trainees so who would believe us anyway?
Organisations like the Armed Forces have always unwittingly allowed some of the misfits of society to hide and wreak whatever emotional havoc they can on the vulnerable by virtue of their superiority in rank. Yes things are changing and people do know their rights better but astonishingly there are still large numbers of people in authority who pay lip service to the whole EO/E&D thing. You only have to read some of the bleatings on these fora to see that, and disgustingly it seems that the majority of posters are currently serving commissioned officers!
I myself have been victim of an officers 'wit', he regretted it very quickly when I redressed him and won. However I know it stuffed up my career and the whole nasty experience altered my outlook on the Service permanently, it changed my perspective and destroyed any enthusiasm and loyalty I once had so I have now gone.
Yes things are improving but remember what may be black humour or banter to one may be something very different to an other. Get with the programme gentlemen, this is serious stuff and not for flippancy. Some of the comments here have no place in a modern RAF.
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Seriously agree with An Teallach, it seems a fair few people need to grow up around here. 
Great advertisement to any females out there thinking of joining the RAF in particular, doubt there'd be any at all if they read the original article! Makes my blood boil!
Great advertisement to any females out there thinking of joining the RAF in particular, doubt there'd be any at all if they read the original article! Makes my blood boil!
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I think a lot of people need to grow up around here.
PC Harassment has be come a Convenient excuse for those that cant hack banter. AND MARK MY WORDS THATs ALL IT IS: BANTER, JOKES, TAKING THE PISS, HAVING A LAUGH. We all do it, females, coloured, disabled. Its those that cant take it that moan.
Message for you DK388 - I would love to know where you have be stationed - "lecherous SNCOs", "officers 'wit', he regretted it very quickly when I redressed him and won".
Come on, have you been serving in the IRAQI air force for the last 22 years. You make it sound like a regime that i certainly have not witnessed.
It sounds like to me that you really could not join in the banter and you hated everybody else that did.
I have been in the RAF for 28 years, I have been around the world several times, been to war twice (In two different countries) and spent a total of 12 years away from my wife and family.
In that time i have serverd with females and coloureds of all ranks and i have found them totally enthusiastic and not full of the harrassment hatred that some would like us to believe.
My daughter is joining the mob soon and I am really proud that she is doing so. I also know that she has a wit and a humour that will carry her through with no problems. If I was scared that she would be abused, harrassed or what ever, do you think I would let her join.
On a final note, I am a Welsh man and constantly have to put up with the "BANTER" of English men taking the P??SS out of me.
Is that harrassment or PC acceptable at this moment in time.
The minute I get serious about somebody taking the mickey out of me and my sheep mates, is the minute that I will get quite worried.
The military have to be full of black humour and banter - its what gets us through the hard times in life. And we are all in it together. (except those that dont play their part of course).
.
PC Harassment has be come a Convenient excuse for those that cant hack banter. AND MARK MY WORDS THATs ALL IT IS: BANTER, JOKES, TAKING THE PISS, HAVING A LAUGH. We all do it, females, coloured, disabled. Its those that cant take it that moan.
Message for you DK388 - I would love to know where you have be stationed - "lecherous SNCOs", "officers 'wit', he regretted it very quickly when I redressed him and won".
Come on, have you been serving in the IRAQI air force for the last 22 years. You make it sound like a regime that i certainly have not witnessed.
It sounds like to me that you really could not join in the banter and you hated everybody else that did.
I have been in the RAF for 28 years, I have been around the world several times, been to war twice (In two different countries) and spent a total of 12 years away from my wife and family.
In that time i have serverd with females and coloureds of all ranks and i have found them totally enthusiastic and not full of the harrassment hatred that some would like us to believe.
My daughter is joining the mob soon and I am really proud that she is doing so. I also know that she has a wit and a humour that will carry her through with no problems. If I was scared that she would be abused, harrassed or what ever, do you think I would let her join.
On a final note, I am a Welsh man and constantly have to put up with the "BANTER" of English men taking the P??SS out of me.
Is that harrassment or PC acceptable at this moment in time.
The minute I get serious about somebody taking the mickey out of me and my sheep mates, is the minute that I will get quite worried.
The military have to be full of black humour and banter - its what gets us through the hard times in life. And we are all in it together. (except those that dont play their part of course).
.
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Srennaps
Believe me, I would be the first to rage against the PC brigade. However, I would suggest that there is a huge gulf between banter or 'avin' a larf and sexual harassment.
This thread is about the latter. Calling a Taff (or, indeed a Jock - yes, it has happened to me too, many times) a sheepshagger is one thing. Sexual harassment is quite another.
Believe me, I would be the first to rage against the PC brigade. However, I would suggest that there is a huge gulf between banter or 'avin' a larf and sexual harassment.
This thread is about the latter. Calling a Taff (or, indeed a Jock - yes, it has happened to me too, many times) a sheepshagger is one thing. Sexual harassment is quite another.
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Hey, for what it's worth banter's what makes the air force. creeping PC-isms drive me up the wall. I can banter as well as most (although obviosuly hindered by learning some of my worst banter from the Marines!). I think we need to be able to take more than the average girlie - we might be anywhere in the world alongside other services and other people and we might be being shot at (I have been).
No problem.
I have also had one flt cdr attempt to rape me twice and had one sqn cdr rape me. I was younger and less wise, and didn't report anything because I (misguidedly) thought my career mattered more. All water under the bridge - thankfully - now but don't you ever confuse banter with nasty violent sexual abuse which is still a feature of the RAF (no it's not just the Army). If you don't understand the difference, you need to have a long hard think.
No problem.
I have also had one flt cdr attempt to rape me twice and had one sqn cdr rape me. I was younger and less wise, and didn't report anything because I (misguidedly) thought my career mattered more. All water under the bridge - thankfully - now but don't you ever confuse banter with nasty violent sexual abuse which is still a feature of the RAF (no it's not just the Army). If you don't understand the difference, you need to have a long hard think.
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I think this article should be taken with a pinch of salt, as should most articles written by those "in the know" about HM Forces. It all depends on what you call sexual harrassment, for example is telling a blonde joke harrassment? I would say no, but to whoever made the survey it probably counts as such.
Despite my light hearted comment above I would hate to think that anyone in the forces is subject to real harrassment, though I'm not so naive to pretend that people aren't bullied somewhere in their jobs. I've shown this article to a couple of girls I work with and they both laughed and dismissed it as sensationalist propaganda.
But then again, an article on the forces just getting on with their jobs in a professional manner just doesn't make headline news these days.
Despite my light hearted comment above I would hate to think that anyone in the forces is subject to real harrassment, though I'm not so naive to pretend that people aren't bullied somewhere in their jobs. I've shown this article to a couple of girls I work with and they both laughed and dismissed it as sensationalist propaganda.
But then again, an article on the forces just getting on with their jobs in a professional manner just doesn't make headline news these days.
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Ah Teallach
WHY???? is it different.
20 years ago it was totally acceptable to watch "Love Thy Neighbour" now it is not.
In another 20 years I will be able to take an english man to court for harrassing me.
Think man, and think further than the PC world that we live in.
If sexual harracement was a real problem I am pretty sure that you would not see all the female RAF personnel enjoying themselves in the NAFFI, Skyways, SGts and Officers Mess. And from where I sit they still do. LETS PUT THIS PROBLEM INTO PERSPECTIVE.
WHY???? is it different.
20 years ago it was totally acceptable to watch "Love Thy Neighbour" now it is not.
In another 20 years I will be able to take an english man to court for harrassing me.
Think man, and think further than the PC world that we live in.
If sexual harracement was a real problem I am pretty sure that you would not see all the female RAF personnel enjoying themselves in the NAFFI, Skyways, SGts and Officers Mess. And from where I sit they still do. LETS PUT THIS PROBLEM INTO PERSPECTIVE.
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bird99. You have my deepest sympathy but it saddens me to think you felt unable to take the appropriate steps.
WRT the 'survey' I wonder what sort of results would be obtained if it had been carried out in another male-dominated section of society such as a large bank, newspaper, or a football club? I am also intrigued by the general nature of the statement from Sky News. In typically vague manner, the original article stated that
Out of a survey of 2500, over 1000 were 'sexually harassed':
So over 500 were:
Once? Twice? Degree of seriousness? What is a sexually explicit remark? What constitutes harassment "Would you like to come out for a drink with me?"?
There is also no mention of the time period to which the survey applied. Ask an SAC if they have been shouted at unfairly in the last 5 years, the answer is probably going to be yes; haven't we all had group bollockings?
Now I am not suggesting that sexual harassment or bullying is acceptable, but I work in very close proximity with men and women from LAC up to wg cdr, and I genuinely do not believe that the problem is endemic in my part of the Service, despite what the article implies.
It is easier now than ever before to talk to someone about a problem you are having with an individual or group of individuals if you believe you are being bullied or harassed, but this brings me on to another point:
WE ARE AN ARMED SERVICE.
Being told to do something you don't want to do or don't like doing does not constitute harassment or bullying. Being punished informally for a misdemeanour (eg turn up late for work, your 'turn' to hoover the crewroom). Being shouted at for being somewhere you shouldn't be (or not being somewhere you should), is not bullying.
Some of our people are joining the RAF (and I dare say the other Services) with completely the wrong impression of what to expect, and I don't believe that the initial trg they get helps.
WRT the 'survey' I wonder what sort of results would be obtained if it had been carried out in another male-dominated section of society such as a large bank, newspaper, or a football club? I am also intrigued by the general nature of the statement from Sky News. In typically vague manner, the original article stated that
Out of a survey of 2500, over 1000 were 'sexually harassed':
Most of them were said to have been groped or subjected to sexually explicit remarks or gestures
subjected to sexually explicit remarks or gestures
There is also no mention of the time period to which the survey applied. Ask an SAC if they have been shouted at unfairly in the last 5 years, the answer is probably going to be yes; haven't we all had group bollockings?
Now I am not suggesting that sexual harassment or bullying is acceptable, but I work in very close proximity with men and women from LAC up to wg cdr, and I genuinely do not believe that the problem is endemic in my part of the Service, despite what the article implies.
It is easier now than ever before to talk to someone about a problem you are having with an individual or group of individuals if you believe you are being bullied or harassed, but this brings me on to another point:
WE ARE AN ARMED SERVICE.
Being told to do something you don't want to do or don't like doing does not constitute harassment or bullying. Being punished informally for a misdemeanour (eg turn up late for work, your 'turn' to hoover the crewroom). Being shouted at for being somewhere you shouldn't be (or not being somewhere you should), is not bullying.
Some of our people are joining the RAF (and I dare say the other Services) with completely the wrong impression of what to expect, and I don't believe that the initial trg they get helps.