Wraf Abuse!
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Then the law is an ass.
What year did we loose the ability to decide for ourselves a course of action appropriate to the matter at hand?
How would you deal with a person who arrived late?
What year did we loose the ability to decide for ourselves a course of action appropriate to the matter at hand?
How would you deal with a person who arrived late?
Nixor ut Ledo
Join Date: Nov 2003
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hyd3failure Please read and note what glum has written.
Whilst I really don't want to get personal if you are an example of what the RAF is today then thank God I left in 1993.
PC, whilst in the main having very laudable aims, has unforeseen consequences. Glum has pointed out some. Your path will lead to everyone being charged no matter how trivial. And while my nickname at Wittering was "Charge the bastard H......." I really wouldn't wish your course on anyone.
Whilst I really don't want to get personal if you are an example of what the RAF is today then thank God I left in 1993.
PC, whilst in the main having very laudable aims, has unforeseen consequences. Glum has pointed out some. Your path will lead to everyone being charged no matter how trivial. And while my nickname at Wittering was "Charge the bastard H......." I really wouldn't wish your course on anyone.
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Hey hey hey....this isn't my fault. I don't write the law. Im sorry guys but thats the way it is. Seeing as you left in 1993 you won't have had the pleasure of being subjected to brief after brief on Equal Opportunities, diversity, equality etc etc etc.
Now, what would I do? Well the one thing I would not do and that is to administer my own form of "informal punishment".
I would use my leadership and management skills to ascertain WHY the chap was late. I would counsel him/her and find out what the problem was. I would then explain why we have to rely on the punctuality of our team in order to get the work done. I would explain that he/her had let the side down and then I would explain that provided I received an assurance that it was a one off event then I would allow them to return to work and forget the matter. Should the person be late again then there would have to be a charge to show them that there is a real need for punctuality.
Now, what would I do? Well the one thing I would not do and that is to administer my own form of "informal punishment".
I would use my leadership and management skills to ascertain WHY the chap was late. I would counsel him/her and find out what the problem was. I would then explain why we have to rely on the punctuality of our team in order to get the work done. I would explain that he/her had let the side down and then I would explain that provided I received an assurance that it was a one off event then I would allow them to return to work and forget the matter. Should the person be late again then there would have to be a charge to show them that there is a real need for punctuality.
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My old man was a chief in FAA in the 70's. He told me some good advice about punishment when I got my hook up in the RNR, and in summary it was this...
1/ Praise in public - rebuke in private
2/ If a bloke does something to cause discord amonst his oppo's then let them sort it out
3/ If a bloke on your team ain't pulling his wieght then make him SLJR - he can't complain if those tasks are part of the section's remit can he?
BTW as for lateness - I did a weekend cruise back in 1990. Had a good run ashore Saturday Night (Rothesay!) all of us happy in the knowlege that we were less than 3 hours staeming from the home port. One fella decided to make a night of it and got in tow with one of the local Gargoyles
Needless to say said chap turned to the next morning 1 HOUR LATE 
And his punishment was this....
a/ Fined 2 days pay - he'd just worked his weekend for nothing.
b/ a severe picturising from the rest of the crew - Thanks to ship movements on the clyde we were 4 HOURS LATE
c/ A dose of the RAF from said Gargoyle
How that for punishment!
1/ Praise in public - rebuke in private
2/ If a bloke does something to cause discord amonst his oppo's then let them sort it out
3/ If a bloke on your team ain't pulling his wieght then make him SLJR - he can't complain if those tasks are part of the section's remit can he?
BTW as for lateness - I did a weekend cruise back in 1990. Had a good run ashore Saturday Night (Rothesay!) all of us happy in the knowlege that we were less than 3 hours staeming from the home port. One fella decided to make a night of it and got in tow with one of the local Gargoyles
Needless to say said chap turned to the next morning 1 HOUR LATE And his punishment was this....a/ Fined 2 days pay - he'd just worked his weekend for nothing.
b/ a severe picturising from the rest of the crew - Thanks to ship movements on the clyde we were 4 HOURS LATE
c/ A dose of the RAF from said Gargoyle
How that for punishment!
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Hyd3,
I didn't leave in 1993, am still receiving the queen's shilling and have also been to EO, diversity etc briefs ad nauseum.
I however still believe we need the minerals to dish out the odd bo!!ocking and, when called for, administer informal punishment.
Have you never heard of the term "keeping things in house."
Also, your last post does seem fairly binary in its response to incidents. Council - Charge.
Where does the Axminster Shuffle, Severe Listening Too, Hairdrier enter into it? Surely this is another stage in a graduated level of disipline, as reponses befitting the crimes.
Personally would take a cr@p shift or good old 50 push ups/10 laps over charge/1021. I'm sure most of the members of the services would.
Those that wouldn't shouldn't be in the business!
Turbs
I didn't leave in 1993, am still receiving the queen's shilling and have also been to EO, diversity etc briefs ad nauseum.
I however still believe we need the minerals to dish out the odd bo!!ocking and, when called for, administer informal punishment.
Have you never heard of the term "keeping things in house."
Also, your last post does seem fairly binary in its response to incidents. Council - Charge.
Where does the Axminster Shuffle, Severe Listening Too, Hairdrier enter into it? Surely this is another stage in a graduated level of disipline, as reponses befitting the crimes.
Personally would take a cr@p shift or good old 50 push ups/10 laps over charge/1021. I'm sure most of the members of the services would.
Those that wouldn't shouldn't be in the business!
Turbs
Last edited by TurbineTooHot; 25th Jan 2005 at 09:36.
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Hyd3; you forgot to mention that it is in your best interests to minute the counselling conversation in the individual's file. A second stage is then open to you - you can write down a bollocking (sorry, direct and succinct counselling), haul them in to your office, read it verbatim to them, hand them a copy, get them to leave and place a copy on their file. You now have an established audit trail for any further disciplinary action in the event they reoffend and, frankly, it shakes them up more than any amount of appealling to their better side about teamwork and focusses their mind on the fact that the behaviour will not be tolerated. After that, you are in to informal and formal warnings and charging them! Just make sure that you have your system and apply it equally to all subordinates, without any hint of favouritism.
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Hyd3.
Chap, which way are you actually standing on this little side arguement.
I must be too simple to spot if and where the irony lays in your last couple of threads.
Just wondered,
Turbs
Chap, which way are you actually standing on this little side arguement.
I must be too simple to spot if and where the irony lays in your last couple of threads.
Just wondered,
Turbs
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Ladies & Gentlemen
Have been in Aunty Betty's flying club rather a long time and am pleased that I have never had to charge anybody. I have, however, heard rather a lot. A large number of the charges I heard could have been avoided through the appropriate use of good leadership or minor sanctions. When I was a lad I was offered extra duties and was grateful that my record remained clean.
The Army have recognised this and from Jan this year they have introduced the ability for NCOs upwards to award minor sanctions to juniors. The new system appears to be well regulated with checks and balances in place. However, the sanctions are administrative and do not blight an individual's record. Offences deemed worthy of minor sanctions include absence from place of duty up to 48hrs, lateness etc etc. If you check the MOD web and search for AGAI 67 you'll find it in Annex C.
As a parting thought you may wish to know that at certain establishments, RAF personnel are subject to giving and receiving minor sanctions under this AGAI.
Time will tell if it will work.
Have been in Aunty Betty's flying club rather a long time and am pleased that I have never had to charge anybody. I have, however, heard rather a lot. A large number of the charges I heard could have been avoided through the appropriate use of good leadership or minor sanctions. When I was a lad I was offered extra duties and was grateful that my record remained clean.
The Army have recognised this and from Jan this year they have introduced the ability for NCOs upwards to award minor sanctions to juniors. The new system appears to be well regulated with checks and balances in place. However, the sanctions are administrative and do not blight an individual's record. Offences deemed worthy of minor sanctions include absence from place of duty up to 48hrs, lateness etc etc. If you check the MOD web and search for AGAI 67 you'll find it in Annex C.
As a parting thought you may wish to know that at certain establishments, RAF personnel are subject to giving and receiving minor sanctions under this AGAI.
Time will tell if it will work.
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I would use my leadership and management skills to ascertain WHY the chap was late. I would counsel him/her and find out what the problem was. I would then explain why we have to rely on the punctuality of our team in order to get the work done. I would explain that he/her had let the side down and then I would explain that provided I received an assurance that it was a one off event then I would allow them to return to work and forget the matter. Should the person be late again then there would have to be a charge to show them that there is a real need for punctuality.
Would someone who was late due to a hangover receive your counselling? Christ... the underlying thing about the military (jn my opinion) is discipline, without it you cannot function effectively. Don't counsel them, rollock them and send 'em out to do something particular nasty to act as a deterrent for next time! If the worst they're going to get is a '...Ok, and you pwomise not to do it again?' then wheres the motivation to be on time a month down the line??
Whilst I understand the point you're trying to make, it also sounds like some people have a very unusual idea of logic.
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Crossbow my Bonny Lad
Don't get too excited, even though you may be on your way to a Burns Supper tonight.
In the good old days, if you made a complete arse of yourself by fighting in the NAFFI, being late for work or getting caught out of bounds, ( or all of them) you were offered the choice of a weeks Key Orderly or being charged with 3 days jankers on your slop chit.
I always chose the former! (informal punishment)
There again, under todays rules, I could elect ( foolishly) for a Court Martial, which I might win, and screw the MOD for some compensation
What do you want - summary punishment - hang them at dawn?
Diplomacy and Tact cost nothing - sadlly today, it's missing, particularly in middle management
Love many. Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe!
And don't get caught - that's the problem for todays youngsters
Don't get too excited, even though you may be on your way to a Burns Supper tonight.
In the good old days, if you made a complete arse of yourself by fighting in the NAFFI, being late for work or getting caught out of bounds, ( or all of them) you were offered the choice of a weeks Key Orderly or being charged with 3 days jankers on your slop chit.
I always chose the former! (informal punishment)
There again, under todays rules, I could elect ( foolishly) for a Court Martial, which I might win, and screw the MOD for some compensation
What do you want - summary punishment - hang them at dawn?
Diplomacy and Tact cost nothing - sadlly today, it's missing, particularly in middle management
Love many. Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe!
And don't get caught - that's the problem for todays youngsters
