UAS 's to close (Merged)
Interesting to note that BA have recently offered contracts to ab-initio pilots at Jerez before they have even flown their IRs!
It won't be long before the current pick up in airline recruiting filters all the way down to cadet level. When that happens, the RAF will have huge difficulties competing against the airlines for pilots......
Catch 'em young - or lose 'em forever. And yes, it'll cost you. But not much.
It won't be long before the current pick up in airline recruiting filters all the way down to cadet level. When that happens, the RAF will have huge difficulties competing against the airlines for pilots......
Catch 'em young - or lose 'em forever. And yes, it'll cost you. But not much.
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Kippers,
Fully aware that there is a syllabus - just how many people do you know who stick to the syllabus? Most spacies just want to go upside down..... fair do's but not on thier tenth trip in a row eating tax payers money to go on an aero's trip which could have been used far more wisely as a UAS stude's trip instead of (i use this term tenderly...) wasting)?) a trip? Bit of a joke really when there are UAS studes wanting to do a tri which they have been waiting to do for 2 weeks due WX and then they turn up ready to go, WX is great but some cadet is hogging the airframe to go upside down.
ATC and UAS's should NOT mix like that. Either donate some airframes solely for ATC flying or stick 'em all on the vigilant; imho it's more than suitable for teaching them to fly! Will make them better pilots as it's harder to land
Just a thought, not a dig!
Fully aware that there is a syllabus - just how many people do you know who stick to the syllabus? Most spacies just want to go upside down..... fair do's but not on thier tenth trip in a row eating tax payers money to go on an aero's trip which could have been used far more wisely as a UAS stude's trip instead of (i use this term tenderly...) wasting)?) a trip? Bit of a joke really when there are UAS studes wanting to do a tri which they have been waiting to do for 2 weeks due WX and then they turn up ready to go, WX is great but some cadet is hogging the airframe to go upside down.
ATC and UAS's should NOT mix like that. Either donate some airframes solely for ATC flying or stick 'em all on the vigilant; imho it's more than suitable for teaching them to fly! Will make them better pilots as it's harder to land
Just a thought, not a dig!
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While not directly to do with UASs, but linked, what grips me most is that many AEFs are manned by ex-mil pilots who have left for the airlines !!!!!!!!!!!!! Or ex-senior officers
How many of you out there are scraping to get hrs for licences?
As an ex-spacey I think AEFs are a great recruiter and they should continue in some form, even if it means contracting civvy flying clubs.
But we've got the manning wrong. Priority should go current serving aircrew and not those who jumped ship.
How many of you out there are scraping to get hrs for licences?
As an ex-spacey I think AEFs are a great recruiter and they should continue in some form, even if it means contracting civvy flying clubs.
But we've got the manning wrong. Priority should go current serving aircrew and not those who jumped ship.
Twinact....judging by your locstat and your handle, you'd be a Chinny driver....who spend long periods of time away...and find it difficult to devote the requisite time to an AEF...I know... I've done it and only scraped enough time off to JUST maintain currency. The baby boomers are just about to hit retirement age, that should free up some slots. Some just left when their time was up...hardly jumping ship.
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Hueymeister,
Thanks, correct on both counts. I don't resent those who have made the decision to leave - we all have sometime! But the system doesn't support current serving aircrew. Airline pilots have their schedules months in advance, we're lucky to know what's happening next day.
Its probably too late judging by the theme here, AEFs, and UASs, will be lucky to make through the next round of spending cuts.
Thanks, correct on both counts. I don't resent those who have made the decision to leave - we all have sometime! But the system doesn't support current serving aircrew. Airline pilots have their schedules months in advance, we're lucky to know what's happening next day.
Its probably too late judging by the theme here, AEFs, and UASs, will be lucky to make through the next round of spending cuts.
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Some of us didn't get in first time around and had to go to uni - trust me, i didn't want to go to uni! 
It was only a suggestion, I'm not holding - i know there are a few post Linton flying on AEF's but why can't more holding officers do it?
It was only a suggestion, I'm not holding - i know there are a few post Linton flying on AEF's but why can't more holding officers do it?
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For the record, there are, to my knowledge, 2 holding pilots (waiting for Valley) on an AEF. They have been personally sanctioned by GCFT (they don't have the required qualifications to be an AEF pilot), and are filling their boots.
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OK – I’ll bite again.
Working backwards through the posts:
a. Yes there are some pilots holding and flying on AEFs now. I have one right now and 2 more with effect from next Wednesday. Why not more? The system has only just recently reverted to (more or less) what it used to be many eons ago, in that pilots who achieve a high average pass or better at Linton can fly air cadets. Prior to that, pilots had to have a minimum of 500 hours first pilot before being allowed to fly cadets. It stemmed from the need for (in my view slightly over-protective in the past) duty of care to the young cadets. The change is welcomed by me at least, as I now have a constant source of readily available pilots, even when the airline pilots and/or the serving RAF pilots are going through one of the many and frequent ultra-busy periods when they find it difficult to find the time to attend the AEF.
b. The breakdown of pilots on my outfit is: 12 ex-Service, current airline pilots; 12 current RAF/RN/Army pilots; and 12 fully retired pilots. Airline pilots do NOT have their schedules “months in advance”; most of them are lucky to get a month ahead to plan their AEF flying availability.
c. The flying commitments required for an AEF pilot are to remain current (31 day currency) and to achieve a minimum of 50 hours per year. That may not sound very much, but when you are flying 20 minute sorties it can sometimes be difficult to achieve. I find that – because of their tight commitments to their main job in today’s busy times – the current serving officers are the ones who have the most difficulty maintaining currency and achieving the minimum number of hours. The fully retired – and this includes your “ex-senior officers” – are (generally) the ones best to rely on for short-notice filling in on days when there is a shortfall of pilots available. Also remember that these pilots are basically unpaid volunteers.
d. I would be amazed if the reason that the “UAS studes wanting to do a trip that they have been waiting to do for 2 weeks” do not get their trip is because “some cadet is hogging the airframe to go upside down”. All UASs have priority over the AEFs with whom they share the airframes and so it is considerably more likely that it will be the AEF sorties that are cancelled, all other things being equal. However, it is sometimes true that the AEF is flying aircraft when the UAS is not. This can be for a variety of reasons, most of which are usually weather driven. To teach – for example – straight and level or climbing and descending will require a clearly defined horizon, something that is not necessarily required for AEF experience flying. Next time you dip out on your trip, a pro-active request for the reason on your part may go some way to better understanding, although a good UAS will have already explained the reason to its student(s).
e. Approximately half of the pilots on my AEF are ex-QFIs or current QFIs (not necessarily on the Tutor) and so are perfectly capable of “teaching” the rudiments of flying to air cadets. The other non-QFIs are also - in my opinion - similarly well equipped to teach the basics. They all have considerable "hands-on" experience with generally somewhere between about 3000 and 15000 flying hours, probably just enough to be able to get across to a youngster how it is done in basic terms! Bear in mind that cadets are actually supposed to get one 20 minute trip per year each, and this is what the AEF flying task is calculated on! This is – of course – hardly conducive to a steady and progressive working though a “flying training syllabus”. It does – however – permit the teaching of the basics and the achievement of the “catch ‘em young” requirement, and I see my job as primarily “hooking” youngsters into an everlasting interest in aviation. If it is thought that we are “not even close to providing interesting and rewarding flying” to cadets, then those that think that have never seen the joy and excitement exhibited by most cadets, especially on their first ever trip. One of the most satisfying aspects of flying air cadets is to take a young (remember they can fly at the age of 13 and a quarter) and frankly extremely nervous - sometimes almost terrified – cadet, and instantly converting them on trip one to someone who can’t wait for his or her next trip. To see them walking back to the hangar from their trip and making like a Harrier pilot on Friday night with his/her hands is reward enough.
f. On our AEF, the cadets receive a 10 minute briefing from me, then they see the video, and then they are each individually briefed by the pilot with whom they are planned to fly on just what is going to happen on their trip and what they are going to be taught.
I think that’s enough for now.
Working backwards through the posts:
a. Yes there are some pilots holding and flying on AEFs now. I have one right now and 2 more with effect from next Wednesday. Why not more? The system has only just recently reverted to (more or less) what it used to be many eons ago, in that pilots who achieve a high average pass or better at Linton can fly air cadets. Prior to that, pilots had to have a minimum of 500 hours first pilot before being allowed to fly cadets. It stemmed from the need for (in my view slightly over-protective in the past) duty of care to the young cadets. The change is welcomed by me at least, as I now have a constant source of readily available pilots, even when the airline pilots and/or the serving RAF pilots are going through one of the many and frequent ultra-busy periods when they find it difficult to find the time to attend the AEF.
b. The breakdown of pilots on my outfit is: 12 ex-Service, current airline pilots; 12 current RAF/RN/Army pilots; and 12 fully retired pilots. Airline pilots do NOT have their schedules “months in advance”; most of them are lucky to get a month ahead to plan their AEF flying availability.
c. The flying commitments required for an AEF pilot are to remain current (31 day currency) and to achieve a minimum of 50 hours per year. That may not sound very much, but when you are flying 20 minute sorties it can sometimes be difficult to achieve. I find that – because of their tight commitments to their main job in today’s busy times – the current serving officers are the ones who have the most difficulty maintaining currency and achieving the minimum number of hours. The fully retired – and this includes your “ex-senior officers” – are (generally) the ones best to rely on for short-notice filling in on days when there is a shortfall of pilots available. Also remember that these pilots are basically unpaid volunteers.
d. I would be amazed if the reason that the “UAS studes wanting to do a trip that they have been waiting to do for 2 weeks” do not get their trip is because “some cadet is hogging the airframe to go upside down”. All UASs have priority over the AEFs with whom they share the airframes and so it is considerably more likely that it will be the AEF sorties that are cancelled, all other things being equal. However, it is sometimes true that the AEF is flying aircraft when the UAS is not. This can be for a variety of reasons, most of which are usually weather driven. To teach – for example – straight and level or climbing and descending will require a clearly defined horizon, something that is not necessarily required for AEF experience flying. Next time you dip out on your trip, a pro-active request for the reason on your part may go some way to better understanding, although a good UAS will have already explained the reason to its student(s).
e. Approximately half of the pilots on my AEF are ex-QFIs or current QFIs (not necessarily on the Tutor) and so are perfectly capable of “teaching” the rudiments of flying to air cadets. The other non-QFIs are also - in my opinion - similarly well equipped to teach the basics. They all have considerable "hands-on" experience with generally somewhere between about 3000 and 15000 flying hours, probably just enough to be able to get across to a youngster how it is done in basic terms! Bear in mind that cadets are actually supposed to get one 20 minute trip per year each, and this is what the AEF flying task is calculated on! This is – of course – hardly conducive to a steady and progressive working though a “flying training syllabus”. It does – however – permit the teaching of the basics and the achievement of the “catch ‘em young” requirement, and I see my job as primarily “hooking” youngsters into an everlasting interest in aviation. If it is thought that we are “not even close to providing interesting and rewarding flying” to cadets, then those that think that have never seen the joy and excitement exhibited by most cadets, especially on their first ever trip. One of the most satisfying aspects of flying air cadets is to take a young (remember they can fly at the age of 13 and a quarter) and frankly extremely nervous - sometimes almost terrified – cadet, and instantly converting them on trip one to someone who can’t wait for his or her next trip. To see them walking back to the hangar from their trip and making like a Harrier pilot on Friday night with his/her hands is reward enough.
f. On our AEF, the cadets receive a 10 minute briefing from me, then they see the video, and then they are each individually briefed by the pilot with whom they are planned to fly on just what is going to happen on their trip and what they are going to be taught.
I think that’s enough for now.
Years ago I did a little bit of cadet air experience flying in my spare time whilst flying HM's tin triangles at Sunny Scampton. Interestingly, I found the ATC lads were keen as mustard, whereas some of the sullen CCF (RAF) kids were as keen as, well, mouse turds.
One CCF (RAF) child announced that his father flew 747s for ba. Splendid, I thought, he'll have half an idea about flying. WRONG - little bugger hadn't a clue and simply wasn't interested. But that wasn't quite as good as a tale told to me by the AEF guys at White Waltham when I was a UAS student... One day, it was the turn of Eton College to go flying. One pompous little prick, after about 5 minutes in the back of one of HM's Thundermunks, piped up with "You can take me back now, pilot, I've seen enough....." 20 minutes, much aerobatics and a few honk bags later, they returned to WW.....
It would be an utter tragedy if AEF flying were to stop..
But Wholi', old blue-noter, for f***'s sake don't let the little lads behave like H*rr**r pilots
Only kidding
One CCF (RAF) child announced that his father flew 747s for ba. Splendid, I thought, he'll have half an idea about flying. WRONG - little bugger hadn't a clue and simply wasn't interested. But that wasn't quite as good as a tale told to me by the AEF guys at White Waltham when I was a UAS student... One day, it was the turn of Eton College to go flying. One pompous little prick, after about 5 minutes in the back of one of HM's Thundermunks, piped up with "You can take me back now, pilot, I've seen enough....." 20 minutes, much aerobatics and a few honk bags later, they returned to WW.....
It would be an utter tragedy if AEF flying were to stop..
But Wholi', old blue-noter, for f***'s sake don't let the little lads behave like H*rr**r pilots
Only kidding
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On our AEF, the cadets receive a 10 minute briefing from me, then they see the video, and then they are each individually briefed by the pilot with whom they are planned to fly on just what is going to happen on their trip and what they are going to be taught.
Incidentally that is a system I haven't seen at any other AEF, but I did find extremely good. I think all were better off for it. Perhaps not for the horse like dog though
Back on to the subject for a moment; If the UAS's were to reduce to a 10 hr/per year flying experience type profile, what would become of the excess capacity in the system? Is there any PFI penalties for under utilisation of the fleet, or would there be a change in contract terms, an extended period of EFT, etc? Or, would it signal an expansion in UAS recruitment?
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Incidentally that is a system I haven't seen at any other AEF, but I did find extremely good. I think all were better off for it. Perhaps not for the horse like dog though
Back on to the subject for a moment; If the UAS's were to reduce to a 10 hr/per year flying experience type profile, what would become of the excess capacity in the system? Is there any PFI penalties for under utilisation of the fleet, or would there be a change in contract terms, an extended period of EFT, etc? Or, would it signal an expansion in UAS recruitment?
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Well Travelled Nav wrote:
"It doesn't matter how good your arguments are to keep the UAS system, I hear that the senior officer carrying out the study hates the UAS system.
Why ?
Apparently because his son failed to get in on 3 separate occasions."
As you've decided to get personal with your comments now, I guess I'll have to straighten some of your facts out - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and all that.
Failed to get into what on 3 separate occasions? Getting into the UAS, or the RAF? I applied for the UAS once. I was accepted. I spent 3 years on East Midlands UAS, and completed the entire EFT syllabus. During this time I never once went to Cranwell for selection. I did, however, apply for the RAF during my final year at University, and attended OASC after completion of the UAS flying. This was a mistake if I wanted to join the RAF as a pilot. I obviously passed an aircrew medical to get into the UAS, but on attending OASC I was told I did not meet the required eye sight limits to be a pilot. So 3 years on the UAS, completed EFT training (with "two 5's" on FHT), and told I can't join as a pilot as my eye sight wasn't good enough. (As an aside, I believe the eye sight limits changed some time during my UAS time with the introduction of Typhoon approaching. Also I subsequently found out that as I had completed EFT I should have been assessed on the old eye sight limits, and so should not have failed the medical. Getting rid of good pilots from the UAS system on stupid medical reason (arms too short etc) just because you have to be medically fit to fly any RAF aircraft as a pilot is a whole different subject though.) So I hope that straightens that one out for you a little at least.
You obviously like your anonymity on these type of web forums like everyone else, but when you post completely inaccurate facts some of us are then forced to not remain behind ours.
As for the other points in your post, they are not for me to comment on as I have little knowledge on them. Maybe something you should bear in mind before posting in future.
"It doesn't matter how good your arguments are to keep the UAS system, I hear that the senior officer carrying out the study hates the UAS system.
Why ?
Apparently because his son failed to get in on 3 separate occasions."
As you've decided to get personal with your comments now, I guess I'll have to straighten some of your facts out - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and all that.
Failed to get into what on 3 separate occasions? Getting into the UAS, or the RAF? I applied for the UAS once. I was accepted. I spent 3 years on East Midlands UAS, and completed the entire EFT syllabus. During this time I never once went to Cranwell for selection. I did, however, apply for the RAF during my final year at University, and attended OASC after completion of the UAS flying. This was a mistake if I wanted to join the RAF as a pilot. I obviously passed an aircrew medical to get into the UAS, but on attending OASC I was told I did not meet the required eye sight limits to be a pilot. So 3 years on the UAS, completed EFT training (with "two 5's" on FHT), and told I can't join as a pilot as my eye sight wasn't good enough. (As an aside, I believe the eye sight limits changed some time during my UAS time with the introduction of Typhoon approaching. Also I subsequently found out that as I had completed EFT I should have been assessed on the old eye sight limits, and so should not have failed the medical. Getting rid of good pilots from the UAS system on stupid medical reason (arms too short etc) just because you have to be medically fit to fly any RAF aircraft as a pilot is a whole different subject though.) So I hope that straightens that one out for you a little at least.
You obviously like your anonymity on these type of web forums like everyone else, but when you post completely inaccurate facts some of us are then forced to not remain behind ours.
As for the other points in your post, they are not for me to comment on as I have little knowledge on them. Maybe something you should bear in mind before posting in future.