Military Ac 'emergencies'
Thread Starter
Military Ac 'emergencies'
Is there a large amount of paperwork to fill out if you utter the words 'MAYDAY or PAN'. Example, very recently VC10 diverts to Wiltshire airbase with fuel transfer problem, no emergency declared. ATC then learn that there is either smoke and fumes in the ####### or smoke 'down the back'. Captain asked again any emergency, no. Captain then asks for Crash crews to be on standby, but no emergency, crew taken to SMC. Wouldn't it have been easier to say PAN x 3 and land. Thoughts from our aircrew brethern.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From your story, He did land though didn't he ?
Don't know too much about the 10 but would have thought that if he could make Wiltshire he could make his home base and unless it's dire, he'd go home.
As with all these, unless you are in the cockpit and know the full story, then the facts get lost in translation.
Don't know too much about the 10 but would have thought that if he could make Wiltshire he could make his home base and unless it's dire, he'd go home.
As with all these, unless you are in the cockpit and know the full story, then the facts get lost in translation.
I think his point is thus; all he really needs to do is land a little quickly, get away from the jet, and have everyone who might have breathed in something a bit funny checked by a doc.
However, if he shouts pan three times to declare an "emergency," which gets him his priority, he's then faced with reams and reams of paperwork, incident reports, details etc etc.
If the paperwork's getting so ridiculous that people are loathe to declare a pan, then that's a bit troublesome really.
However, if he shouts pan three times to declare an "emergency," which gets him his priority, he's then faced with reams and reams of paperwork, incident reports, details etc etc.
If the paperwork's getting so ridiculous that people are loathe to declare a pan, then that's a bit troublesome really.
True, but that's annoying enough, isn't it....? After finding your Sqn SFO to check your wording and add his signature, you need the Boss's auth, then up to OC Ops, then find the right person in Eng Wg to get it faxed off before some spurious deadling expires.... 
The point is, it's obviously annoying to some, as some people don't declare them for these reasons. I've filled out a couple and they're not that bad, but I remember eeking my way back to base with an undercarriage snag once. The captain gets a call from ATC saying his pan is acknowledged, as his "emergency" was phoned through from the unit we were operating when it happened. His first words weren't that he was glad they knew, or that there'd be a DAO mate rushing to the tower, or that at least we'd have priority; it was "sod it, I was hoping to avoid the paperwork..."
If the paperwork's of the sort where people can't be bothered to do it, then it's going to be one of the things they think about when wondering if a couple of little captions are worth declaring a pan for; when they should be thinking about what's safest!
The point is, it's obviously annoying to some, as some people don't declare them for these reasons. I've filled out a couple and they're not that bad, but I remember eeking my way back to base with an undercarriage snag once. The captain gets a call from ATC saying his pan is acknowledged, as his "emergency" was phoned through from the unit we were operating when it happened. His first words weren't that he was glad they knew, or that there'd be a DAO mate rushing to the tower, or that at least we'd have priority; it was "sod it, I was hoping to avoid the paperwork..."
If the paperwork's of the sort where people can't be bothered to do it, then it's going to be one of the things they think about when wondering if a couple of little captions are worth declaring a pan for; when they should be thinking about what's safest!
This problem has always been there. First it becomes a balls-ache to fill out the paperwork, nobody does and incidents go unreported. Then IFS (or WTF they're called nowadays) gets a new boss who throws his teddies out because no-one reports anything. So The New Way becomes 'open and honest reporting'. Right up to the time that some inadequately-testiculated little nerd takes over as OC-whatever at station level, and worries that too many IRs will mean that his ego-tripping career path might be inconvenienced by the truth. So 'management' decides that all IRs will henceforth be vetted by some wet-behind-the-ears Sqn 'Exec' - and it goes back to being a balls-ache to fill out the paperwork. Nobody does and incidents yet again go unreported. Then a new person takes over at IFS and asks Why Is No-one Reporting Anything?
Get the picture?
Get the picture?
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm confused why the declaration of an emergency might not be made to avoid paperwork. The humble incident report is part of an aviation professionals responsibility to complete whether or not an emergency was declared and its' purpose is to improve flight safety. An emergency is normally declared in order to obtain the required priority to either recover the aircraft safely or to alert rescue resources or both. If neither is required there is no point declaring it.
Anybody who cannot be bothered to complete flight safety related paperwork should not be flying military aircraft.
Anybody who cannot be bothered to complete flight safety related paperwork should not be flying military aircraft.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: England
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As tradewind says, it’s not reams of paper work; it’s one incident report and it takes less than 5 minutes to complete (quicker if you use an Intranet template, which you then pass paperless onwards).
And the whole point is that you give your problem visibility that will perhaps prevent a re-occurrence or assist others faced with the same or similar situation.
It’s what professional aviators are paid to do.
And the whole point is that you give your problem visibility that will perhaps prevent a re-occurrence or assist others faced with the same or similar situation.
It’s what professional aviators are paid to do.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Always taught my students to declare Pan if in doubt - better to get ATC working with you (and any help reqd) than to get held off because the CFI is late for his slot to make LL entry...meanwhile the prob is guaranteed to mushroom!
And if it IS a real prob, then the reporting chain can give it some visibility so hopefully any trends can be identified before some poor s*d gets the same prob at night with a xwind on limits etc!!!
And if it IS a real prob, then the reporting chain can give it some visibility so hopefully any trends can be identified before some poor s*d gets the same prob at night with a xwind on limits etc!!!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: my sordid mind
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With regard to the incident in question, it is not outside the realms of human imagation to envisage a situation where there are indications of an incipient problem on board an aircraft but it is not possible to ascertain for sure whether the indications are genuine.
To that end the aircraft is not therefore in an emergency situation but would like to make a precautionary landing to have the indications checked by the proper equipment such as might be found in crash trucks.
If in order to do this the aircraft has to use an alternative airfield than the home base because of a flying embargo imposed for extremely sensitive reasons, then that is exactly what should happen.
The option of using home base would have existed throughout the recovery due to the proximity of the A/Fs in question.
By declaring an emergency in this situation and returning to home base would have caused a largely unecessary disturbance (VC10s are not known for their stealth landing abilities) to an event that should not be interrupted.
It is my opinion that correct decisions were taken throughout, and a unverified problem was not allowed to cause distress to others at a very difficult time.
With regard to paperwork, I regard it as a totally irrelevant consideration. It takes less than 5 mins to do and is usually finished on the bus before even getting to the Sqn or Ops. It is vital to do as it makes sure that whatever problem caused the situation is fully investigated and you're not leaving your mates up the muddy creek by not reporting it. IRs are part of everyday life in aeroplanes this old and I can not think of a single pilot, nav, eng that would skip it because they can't be bothered.
Emergencies are declared when necessary, but wolf is never cried without good reason. Long may this continue if we expect to recieve the excellent service from ATC when one does need help that badly.
Dunc
To that end the aircraft is not therefore in an emergency situation but would like to make a precautionary landing to have the indications checked by the proper equipment such as might be found in crash trucks.
If in order to do this the aircraft has to use an alternative airfield than the home base because of a flying embargo imposed for extremely sensitive reasons, then that is exactly what should happen.
The option of using home base would have existed throughout the recovery due to the proximity of the A/Fs in question.
By declaring an emergency in this situation and returning to home base would have caused a largely unecessary disturbance (VC10s are not known for their stealth landing abilities) to an event that should not be interrupted.
It is my opinion that correct decisions were taken throughout, and a unverified problem was not allowed to cause distress to others at a very difficult time.
With regard to paperwork, I regard it as a totally irrelevant consideration. It takes less than 5 mins to do and is usually finished on the bus before even getting to the Sqn or Ops. It is vital to do as it makes sure that whatever problem caused the situation is fully investigated and you're not leaving your mates up the muddy creek by not reporting it. IRs are part of everyday life in aeroplanes this old and I can not think of a single pilot, nav, eng that would skip it because they can't be bothered.
Emergencies are declared when necessary, but wolf is never cried without good reason. Long may this continue if we expect to recieve the excellent service from ATC when one does need help that badly.
Dunc
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: East of Gibraltar
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think some of you may have missed the point here. Declaring a PAN or a MAYDAY does NOT require you to fill in an incident report automatically. The emergency which requried you to declare a PAN or MAYDAY does.
If you even think you may have a problem, declare!! You can always downgrade the emergency later if it does not turn to s**t. If the captain of the VC10( and it is a big IF) has had fumes in the cockpit requiring everyone to be checked by the docs, he should (and it is a big SHOULD) fill in an IR.
If the paperwork is stopping people declaring emergencies or telling anyone that they had a problem, then there IS a problem and something should be done. Complain to your SFSO and get the system changed. If problems are not shared, one day someone will have a major problem and crash because a known fault has gone unreported.
I know it is more paperwork, but if you have a probelm with the reporting system, fill in a Human Factors Report. They CANNOT be ignored.
If you even think you may have a problem, declare!! You can always downgrade the emergency later if it does not turn to s**t. If the captain of the VC10( and it is a big IF) has had fumes in the cockpit requiring everyone to be checked by the docs, he should (and it is a big SHOULD) fill in an IR.
If the paperwork is stopping people declaring emergencies or telling anyone that they had a problem, then there IS a problem and something should be done. Complain to your SFSO and get the system changed. If problems are not shared, one day someone will have a major problem and crash because a known fault has gone unreported.
I know it is more paperwork, but if you have a probelm with the reporting system, fill in a Human Factors Report. They CANNOT be ignored.
A VC10K4 once returned with 'suspected fumes' in the back when the rear cabin filled with mist.
But they weren't fumes at all. It had been a damp, soggy day and when the cabin pressurisation was fully enabled on climb out, the mass of air in the back rapidly cooled - and a nice cloud of strato-FunBus formed in the back until the air had circulated!
This used to be mentioned in ground school, but as time went by it had been forgotten. The captain in question said he'd never heard of it and tried to blame everyone else for not telling him....
I had smoke on the flight deck a few times - and the odd smoke detector alert. But never both at the same time!
All of which were duly IR'd!
But they weren't fumes at all. It had been a damp, soggy day and when the cabin pressurisation was fully enabled on climb out, the mass of air in the back rapidly cooled - and a nice cloud of strato-FunBus formed in the back until the air had circulated!
This used to be mentioned in ground school, but as time went by it had been forgotten. The captain in question said he'd never heard of it and tried to blame everyone else for not telling him....
I had smoke on the flight deck a few times - and the odd smoke detector alert. But never both at the same time!
All of which were duly IR'd!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Wishing I was on LOA
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Say What??
To Pan or not to Pan, this is the question. Not wishing to sound like an IFS loser, but anyone that has been to BP for any of the FS courses will know:
To quote JSP 550, the following occurences should be reported: Air Incident, Air Accident, Ground Accident and Ground Incident;
occurrences that represent an actual or potential FS hazard;
errors by aircrew, controllers or logistics personnel that significantly reduce the levels of safety normally expected; abandoned take-offs or unintentionally leaving a runway, taxiway or aircraft operating surface in the event of a serious system or component malfunction; significant loss of thrust/engine power;
significant failure or unforeseen degradation of any safety critical system; flying control system failure or malfunction, or UFCM however momentary; any item that becomes detached from or falls from an aircraft; injury to any personnel incurred during the operation of an aircraft; equipment failure or deficiencies causing significant concern to the user; flight simulator occurrences which may be of benefit to the wider flying community, but excluding those of a Health and Safety at Work nature; etc, etc the list goes on. But I'm spent.
Suffice to say, if you have to declare an emergency it must have been an actual or potential FS hazard and you will have to fill-in one of those complicated and tedious incident signals; you know, the one with the template, where you go to the TV with the keyboard and you fill-in the blanks (don't worry no joined-up writing), press print and hand it to the engineers. Who then pass it up the chain for you, until it reaches command Flight Safety and IFS/WTF. A sad and tiring waste of 4 minutes I know.
Even if you don't declare the magic phrase, as our 4-engined friend decided not to, you still have to fill-in an Incident report! Still, it was an old aeroplane, and there weren't that many on board....
Oh, an IR is required 'when an individual in direct support of aircraft operations has been adversely effected by injury; incapacitated due to illness, the use of drugs or alcohol; or affected by noxious fumes or food poisoning. This includes aircrew or support personnel who, for any reason, are required to report to a medical officer after an incident'. Questions?
To quote JSP 550, the following occurences should be reported: Air Incident, Air Accident, Ground Accident and Ground Incident;
occurrences that represent an actual or potential FS hazard;
errors by aircrew, controllers or logistics personnel that significantly reduce the levels of safety normally expected; abandoned take-offs or unintentionally leaving a runway, taxiway or aircraft operating surface in the event of a serious system or component malfunction; significant loss of thrust/engine power;
significant failure or unforeseen degradation of any safety critical system; flying control system failure or malfunction, or UFCM however momentary; any item that becomes detached from or falls from an aircraft; injury to any personnel incurred during the operation of an aircraft; equipment failure or deficiencies causing significant concern to the user; flight simulator occurrences which may be of benefit to the wider flying community, but excluding those of a Health and Safety at Work nature; etc, etc the list goes on. But I'm spent.
Suffice to say, if you have to declare an emergency it must have been an actual or potential FS hazard and you will have to fill-in one of those complicated and tedious incident signals; you know, the one with the template, where you go to the TV with the keyboard and you fill-in the blanks (don't worry no joined-up writing), press print and hand it to the engineers. Who then pass it up the chain for you, until it reaches command Flight Safety and IFS/WTF. A sad and tiring waste of 4 minutes I know.
Even if you don't declare the magic phrase, as our 4-engined friend decided not to, you still have to fill-in an Incident report! Still, it was an old aeroplane, and there weren't that many on board....
Oh, an IR is required 'when an individual in direct support of aircraft operations has been adversely effected by injury; incapacitated due to illness, the use of drugs or alcohol; or affected by noxious fumes or food poisoning. This includes aircrew or support personnel who, for any reason, are required to report to a medical officer after an incident'. Questions?
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Tx, USA
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How 'bout this then.....
You have an 'incident', ATC reports your plight (or lack of) as a State 2, you land, you fill out some forms and the wider aviation community learn from what you did, or didn't do!
Not trying to play devil's advocate here, but it would probably alarm most people how many 'incidents', worthy of being learnt from, go unreported. I fear that the 'blameworthy' culture is a big factor.
BD
You have an 'incident', ATC reports your plight (or lack of) as a State 2, you land, you fill out some forms and the wider aviation community learn from what you did, or didn't do!
Not trying to play devil's advocate here, but it would probably alarm most people how many 'incidents', worthy of being learnt from, go unreported. I fear that the 'blameworthy' culture is a big factor.
BD
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
BD
Is there not a distinction between fear of blame and the can't-be-arsed cultures? I would've thought self/crew discipline and pride were factors that shunned the latter. And I'd suggest that the former, regardless of percived management attitudes, is a matter of personal integrity. All old-fashioned stuff, but I would hope it's still around.
Ultimately it's all about improving safety - for yourself and others.
Is there not a distinction between fear of blame and the can't-be-arsed cultures? I would've thought self/crew discipline and pride were factors that shunned the latter. And I'd suggest that the former, regardless of percived management attitudes, is a matter of personal integrity. All old-fashioned stuff, but I would hope it's still around.
Ultimately it's all about improving safety - for yourself and others.
Thread Starter
As a humble non flyer my main point , by declaring an emergency if the circumstances are correct then we can give the instant aid of 'SQUAWK 7700'. This aids the ac, the ATC unit and any other units in your path. I appreciate that there are times when things are not right, and you would just feel better if there were people aware, however more and more aircrew seem to prefer to sneek back and hope that they get away with it. A broad statement but how many of out there have done it.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I love it when aircrew obviously have som problem, don't want to declare anything; But ned to fly the shortest possible way to be able to make it home....... (flat out refuse to join as nr.2 etc)
Has happened to me 2 times, a Lynx Mk.86 and, well, a BAe product.
Sound like a bit of 7700 to me....
Has happened to me 2 times, a Lynx Mk.86 and, well, a BAe product.
Sound like a bit of 7700 to me....
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: my sordid mind
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This supposition is quite amusing from a distant point of view.
The facts of the case are clearly not in the public domain and as such I will limit my comments, suffice to say none of the crew required any medical attention, the Docs turn out to these events as a matter of course and were stood down on arrival.
An IR was completed as routine, like any incident, hence the name I guess.
The whole thread seems a little irrelevant.
If the point is to criticise aircrew for attempting to avoid completing IRs after incidents, then it is clearly flawed, as this is patently not true.
If it is to question the merits of delaying declaring an emergency until an emergency occurs then this also seems slightly irrelevant.
If it is to question the decisions made by the captain and crew on this day and in this situation, would it not be necessary to be aquainted with the full facts before commenting?
I leave it with you
Dunc
The facts of the case are clearly not in the public domain and as such I will limit my comments, suffice to say none of the crew required any medical attention, the Docs turn out to these events as a matter of course and were stood down on arrival.
An IR was completed as routine, like any incident, hence the name I guess.
The whole thread seems a little irrelevant.
If the point is to criticise aircrew for attempting to avoid completing IRs after incidents, then it is clearly flawed, as this is patently not true.
If it is to question the merits of delaying declaring an emergency until an emergency occurs then this also seems slightly irrelevant.
If it is to question the decisions made by the captain and crew on this day and in this situation, would it not be necessary to be aquainted with the full facts before commenting?
I leave it with you
Dunc
If this tale alludes to a 10 that had a slight technical problem on an ARA just the other day then maybe, as one of the ATCOs floating around on the periphery of this, I could comment? The guy said he had a slight technical problem (or words to that effect) and that he was trying to sort it. He sorted it, then he decided that he didn't and that he needed to go home. "Do you wish to declare an emergency?" No, no problems, just a minor tech snag but need to go home. Oh, okay, but there is a noise embargo on at BZN until some time this afternoon. Oh okay, says 10 pilot, we'll go to an airfield in Wiltshire then as it's just down the road. No problem, no drama. We trust our guys that if they need to, they'll declare. There are SOME fast-jet mates who seem to be a little shy in declaring, but we all know that if they need to, they will. Now our American friends? That's another kettle of fish. Everyone knows about those guys declaring emergencies with half their wing missing, but still trying to fly from Northern Scotland to LKH. We only have to ask our guys once if they want to declare! That's all I'm saying...