EFTS groundschool
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EFTS groundschool
A query to those who teach at EFTS. Do you teach your students how to use the Dalton navigation computer? The reason I ask is that we've recently had ex-EFT students sitting their PPL exams and it's fairly obvious that they haven't been taught how to find their own arseholes without a mirror, let alone how to navigate a light aeroplane in UK airspace....
They say that all they've been taught to use is MDR and that they have never even seen a Dalton computer, let alone been taught how to use it. Please tell me that this isn't so and they're just bull****ting - I simply cannot believe that such a very basic skill is no longer taught to 'professional' military pilots......
They say that all they've been taught to use is MDR and that they have never even seen a Dalton computer, let alone been taught how to use it. Please tell me that this isn't so and they're just bull****ting - I simply cannot believe that such a very basic skill is no longer taught to 'professional' military pilots......
Thread Starter
Thank you to the chap who PM'd me saying:
"They get taught Jack Sh*t as far as the computer is concerned. All they get is MDR! I have to deal with it on the UAS and, as you've said they haven’t a clue. MDR is the ONLY way they are taught; I spend all my time at medium level ensuring they don't get too far off track because they don't listen to met briefed winds or apply the MDR wrongly!"
What on Earth is going on? Why have standards reached such a dismal state? RAF QSPs are currently credited any requirement to do the navigation element of the PPL Skill Test - but if they haven't received basic instruction in formal navigation planning, then I shall probably be proposing to the CAA CFE that such credit should no longer be given.
"They get taught Jack Sh*t as far as the computer is concerned. All they get is MDR! I have to deal with it on the UAS and, as you've said they haven’t a clue. MDR is the ONLY way they are taught; I spend all my time at medium level ensuring they don't get too far off track because they don't listen to met briefed winds or apply the MDR wrongly!"
What on Earth is going on? Why have standards reached such a dismal state? RAF QSPs are currently credited any requirement to do the navigation element of the PPL Skill Test - but if they haven't received basic instruction in formal navigation planning, then I shall probably be proposing to the CAA CFE that such credit should no longer be given.
Red On, Green On
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Did RN EFTS at Leeming/Topcliffe in 79, jointly staffed by RAF and RN instructors, nav/grd trg by a retired Sqn Leader.
Certainly never took anything into the skies apart from a map, and used MDR taught by the the S/L - I wake up in the night screaming the 1:60 rule he rammed into us.
Still have the trusty Dalton I bought whilst doing my FlySchol, but don't think it saw the light of day once I was in dark blue.
It's worth bearing in mind that most of us were being trained for a pure (probably ASW Sea King) pilot role, with a looker to do the thinking, although they had just started streaming one off each course for SH.
Certainly never took anything into the skies apart from a map, and used MDR taught by the the S/L - I wake up in the night screaming the 1:60 rule he rammed into us.
Still have the trusty Dalton I bought whilst doing my FlySchol, but don't think it saw the light of day once I was in dark blue.
It's worth bearing in mind that most of us were being trained for a pure (probably ASW Sea King) pilot role, with a looker to do the thinking, although they had just started streaming one off each course for SH.
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Beagle, the navigator students did not know how to use a Dalton when they arrived at Shawbury. Groundschool had to be shortened and something had to give! If Navs don't, why would pilots??
Personally, I found the CRP5 perfect for in-flight work when non handling in controlled airspace. MDR requires brain cells.....
Personally, I found the CRP5 perfect for in-flight work when non handling in controlled airspace. MDR requires brain cells.....
Thread Starter
Are we really accepting such idiots into the RAF these days?
I had no need to use a Dalton when I was flying at 540 KIAS and 250 ft either - but I did when flying at 90 KIAS and 2500 ft. But not in flight - just for pre-flight planning. In flight corrections were made using SCA and proportional timing.
Grow up - and learn the basics first!
I had no need to use a Dalton when I was flying at 540 KIAS and 250 ft either - but I did when flying at 90 KIAS and 2500 ft. But not in flight - just for pre-flight planning. In flight corrections were made using SCA and proportional timing.
Grow up - and learn the basics first!
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We were briefly taught how to use the Dalton Computer on EFTS groundschool when I went through 3 or so years ago, but it was a very brief lesson as no one in the RAF FJ world ever needs to use one as far as I am aware. I can't see the point in labouring the Dalton too heavily as I have never used one for real or ever needed to use one for that matter, even on a plastic Grob on EFT. I think that is what godsavethequeen is getting at.
Fair enough, teach studes how to use the computer, but I can't see it being used in day to day flying in the RAF today.
Beagle, I don't think it's fair to criticise todays instructors or students just because we don't use the DCs today. But then again, I'm sure it was better in your day.......
Fair enough, teach studes how to use the computer, but I can't see it being used in day to day flying in the RAF today.
Beagle, I don't think it's fair to criticise todays instructors or students just because we don't use the DCs today. But then again, I'm sure it was better in your day.......
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QUOTE]I can't see the point in labouring the Dalton too heavily as I have never used one for real or ever needed to use one for that matter, even on a plastic Grob on EFT. I think that is what godsavethequeen is getting at.
Fair enough, teach studes how to use the computer, but I can\'t see it being used in day to day flying in the RAF today.
[/QUOTE]
I think I'll dig a deep trench and put on my tin hat now, before the **** starts flying....
Fair enough, teach studes how to use the computer, but I can\'t see it being used in day to day flying in the RAF today.
[/QUOTE]
I think I'll dig a deep trench and put on my tin hat now, before the **** starts flying....
Thread Starter
You will if you ever want to obtain a civil licence!
Due to the doubt expressed by CAA-appointed Examiners at the ability of RAF digi-yoof to be able to plan a navigation route (pre-flight) with the assistance of a Dalton computer, I shall be writing to the CAA CFE recommending that the waiver from the navigation section of the PPL Skill Test for QSPs is suspended. The waiver was granted following the assessment of initial flying training courses a few years ago; however, it seems now that such standards have been dumbed down - hence the waiver is no longer valid.
The hostility expressed in response to my original question only serves to reinforce this recommendation.
Due to the doubt expressed by CAA-appointed Examiners at the ability of RAF digi-yoof to be able to plan a navigation route (pre-flight) with the assistance of a Dalton computer, I shall be writing to the CAA CFE recommending that the waiver from the navigation section of the PPL Skill Test for QSPs is suspended. The waiver was granted following the assessment of initial flying training courses a few years ago; however, it seems now that such standards have been dumbed down - hence the waiver is no longer valid.
The hostility expressed in response to my original question only serves to reinforce this recommendation.
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These days we tend to use good old fashioned maps, stopwatches and compasses for navigation routes during flying training. I stand by my original comment that a Dalton computer is not needed for the work we currently do/ have done in the recent past in the RAF trg system, although I can only speak for the Jet fraternity.
I'm sure a Dalton Computer is a lovely little gizmo for when you need to calculate TAS vs IAS at 33,200 ft or such other trivia, but this just isn't done in todays trg system. I would have loved to have had the time to pull out my Computer whilst planning a LL SAP, but unfortunately there just isn't the time or the need for it in the stuff we do.
Most calculations are done by MDR/rules of thumb for the good reason that when it all goes wrong in the air (bounced, off track, late etc) you cannot feasibly do anything but come up with a plan in your head in a couple of seconds to regain track or whatever you need to do.
Things may be different in the multi or helo fleets and I await their responses to the original question!
Regards, Casper.
I'm sure a Dalton Computer is a lovely little gizmo for when you need to calculate TAS vs IAS at 33,200 ft or such other trivia, but this just isn't done in todays trg system. I would have loved to have had the time to pull out my Computer whilst planning a LL SAP, but unfortunately there just isn't the time or the need for it in the stuff we do.
Most calculations are done by MDR/rules of thumb for the good reason that when it all goes wrong in the air (bounced, off track, late etc) you cannot feasibly do anything but come up with a plan in your head in a couple of seconds to regain track or whatever you need to do.
Things may be different in the multi or helo fleets and I await their responses to the original question!
Regards, Casper.
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SODDIM
"God save godsavethequeen from the Queen's aircraft and God save the Queen's aviators from his presence in their airspace"
Well i have been doing ok so far, thanks for looking out for me though!!
I can say without shadow of a doubt that during all my flying training courses in the RAF, nither myself or my course mates have used the dalton computer.
BEAGLE
Why do corrections pre flight for winds at 2500ft. The wind will be different once your flying anyway and varriable along the entire trip, and its not excactly hard to do a bit of MDR at 90kts or is it!!!
"God save godsavethequeen from the Queen's aircraft and God save the Queen's aviators from his presence in their airspace"
Well i have been doing ok so far, thanks for looking out for me though!!
I can say without shadow of a doubt that during all my flying training courses in the RAF, nither myself or my course mates have used the dalton computer.
BEAGLE
Why do corrections pre flight for winds at 2500ft. The wind will be different once your flying anyway and varriable along the entire trip, and its not excactly hard to do a bit of MDR at 90kts or is it!!!
Last edited by godsavethequeen; 24th Jun 2004 at 22:06.
Thread Starter
Can that really be the voice of today's aircrew?
I cannot believe that such illiterate and utterly ignorant people are being taught to fly at the tax-payers' expense.
I cannot believe that such illiterate and utterly ignorant people are being taught to fly at the tax-payers' expense.
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I did EFT groundschool about 4 years ago and defo remember Willy Clamp teaching us how to use a DC. That said I think it is entirely inappropriate for airborne single pilot ops.
Some air forces (eg. Aus and US) teach their studes to obtain a met wind and drift correct their headings on the ground. This however, is undoubtedly easier than the airborne MDR method. As such, were the RAF to adopt the use of the DC on the ground as opposed to MDR, it would certainly be a 'dumbing down' of EFT, BFJT and AFT - Hawks.
METS studes ARE taught to use the DC both in the air and on the ground (remember that when making your 'waiver recommendations' BEagle.) However, take any student off 208 Sqn (or BFJT for that matter), and after a 15 minute chat they could easily use a DC. It isn't rocket science after all.
Furthermore BEagle, I propose to you that the 'hostility expressed' arises from the younger element due to your perceived arrogance. Remember, the guys hitting the front line these days do so with less hours than their predecessors. That doesn't make them lower calibre individuals. It makes them victims of budget constraints.
Whilst you may or may not be intending to have a dig at the yoof, your posts often read that way and I'm not surprised people take them personally.
Some air forces (eg. Aus and US) teach their studes to obtain a met wind and drift correct their headings on the ground. This however, is undoubtedly easier than the airborne MDR method. As such, were the RAF to adopt the use of the DC on the ground as opposed to MDR, it would certainly be a 'dumbing down' of EFT, BFJT and AFT - Hawks.
METS studes ARE taught to use the DC both in the air and on the ground (remember that when making your 'waiver recommendations' BEagle.) However, take any student off 208 Sqn (or BFJT for that matter), and after a 15 minute chat they could easily use a DC. It isn't rocket science after all.
Furthermore BEagle, I propose to you that the 'hostility expressed' arises from the younger element due to your perceived arrogance. Remember, the guys hitting the front line these days do so with less hours than their predecessors. That doesn't make them lower calibre individuals. It makes them victims of budget constraints.
Whilst you may or may not be intending to have a dig at the yoof, your posts often read that way and I'm not surprised people take them personally.
Beag's of course you are right and speaking as the army guy that was on the committee to get the dispensations in the first place its ptretty disappointing but lets be honest the only time in 7000 hrs I've used the damn thing was on the pilot course, the occasional 6 monthly and to get my licence perhaps even the CAA need occasionally reminding that times change. You and I both know we study to pass exams and yes it gives us a good grounding but forget most of the guff in a couple of weeks, be honest it is a little outdated nowadays, aint it? It was very useful for timed arrivals! Before doppler etc, Those were the days eh.
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Looks like the ayes have it.... very little or no use in ops in this century's jets, at least.
When and if, god forbid, the day comes when I have to learn how to use one, I'll look it up in the same section as sextants and telescopes in one of those library places.
Until then give me IN/GPS, a big heading bug and elegantly sufficient MDR.
When and if, god forbid, the day comes when I have to learn how to use one, I'll look it up in the same section as sextants and telescopes in one of those library places.
Until then give me IN/GPS, a big heading bug and elegantly sufficient MDR.
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BEAGLE
Before you take the 'yooful' attitude to immediately go tell the Authority, may I suggest you check out your facts. It would be very unfair of you to deprive Army Pilots of their exemption based on an unchecked opinion of yours. At DEFTS Barkston Heath, they ARE taught the DC.
I agree with you that the DC is a useful tool to become familiar with in Flying Training but it is not what I would call essential. However, I do feel it should remain within the knowledge base of any aspiring pilot.
The truth is, that a QSP has a lot more experience by the time he wishes to acquire a PPL and we do know that MDR for an experienced Pilot, does work very well.
I have to say that I find it hardly surprising that your threat has engendered a rather juvenile response from some PPruners; perhaps it came across in a way inintended,but then your original threat, was rather juvenile.
Concerning:
"They get taught Jack Sh*t as far as the computer is concerned. All they get is MDR! I have to deal with it on the UAS and, as you've said they haven’t a clue. MDR is the ONLY way they are taught; I spend all my time at medium level ensuring they don't get too far off track because they don't listen to met briefed winds or apply the MDR wrongly!"
You seem to have set much store on this comment - I thought it was a UAS Instructors role to teach Navigation using, yes perhaps MDR. You can say the same, if the above UAS student was using a DC.
Before you take the 'yooful' attitude to immediately go tell the Authority, may I suggest you check out your facts. It would be very unfair of you to deprive Army Pilots of their exemption based on an unchecked opinion of yours. At DEFTS Barkston Heath, they ARE taught the DC.
I agree with you that the DC is a useful tool to become familiar with in Flying Training but it is not what I would call essential. However, I do feel it should remain within the knowledge base of any aspiring pilot.
The truth is, that a QSP has a lot more experience by the time he wishes to acquire a PPL and we do know that MDR for an experienced Pilot, does work very well.
I have to say that I find it hardly surprising that your threat has engendered a rather juvenile response from some PPruners; perhaps it came across in a way inintended,but then your original threat, was rather juvenile.
Concerning:
"They get taught Jack Sh*t as far as the computer is concerned. All they get is MDR! I have to deal with it on the UAS and, as you've said they haven’t a clue. MDR is the ONLY way they are taught; I spend all my time at medium level ensuring they don't get too far off track because they don't listen to met briefed winds or apply the MDR wrongly!"
You seem to have set much store on this comment - I thought it was a UAS Instructors role to teach Navigation using, yes perhaps MDR. You can say the same, if the above UAS student was using a DC.