EFTS groundschool
Fox_4
You complete and utter smackhead! It was actually BEagle's hard work that helped in sorting out the JAR license dispensations that exist now for the benefit of military pilots. For example, thanks to these dispensations the only ATPL exam required now is Air Law.
Get back in your playpen!
You complete and utter smackhead! It was actually BEagle's hard work that helped in sorting out the JAR license dispensations that exist now for the benefit of military pilots. For example, thanks to these dispensations the only ATPL exam required now is Air Law.
Get back in your playpen!
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fox 4
'MDR is a proven method of military navigation both in fast jets and slower types. Why use a dated contraption when your systems should be able to give you the answer at the press of a button.'
a. Dated contraption....... oh yes..... the wind blew differently in my day......
b. Oh yes, how many times as an OCU instructor on Pumas did I see that button pressed and bollocks come out
'MDR is a proven method of military navigation both in fast jets and slower types. Why use a dated contraption when your systems should be able to give you the answer at the press of a button.'
a. Dated contraption....... oh yes..... the wind blew differently in my day......
b. Oh yes, how many times as an OCU instructor on Pumas did I see that button pressed and bollocks come out
I am with Beags on this one..well to an extent anyway.
I got to my new (foreign) unit and was given my kit...including a new DNC. Ahh I thought....I can put this in my Nav Bag and it'll stay there..how wrong I was. We are expected to do all pre-flight planning using it, be IFR or VFR. 'Twas a shock..I hadn't practised with it for yonks, and now wouldn't be without it....I use it to prove the GPS right these days!
I got to my new (foreign) unit and was given my kit...including a new DNC. Ahh I thought....I can put this in my Nav Bag and it'll stay there..how wrong I was. We are expected to do all pre-flight planning using it, be IFR or VFR. 'Twas a shock..I hadn't practised with it for yonks, and now wouldn't be without it....I use it to prove the GPS right these days!
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Beagle,
It has been good to read a thread that throws up a real argument regarding the training of today vs yesteryear but I feel some of the ultra negative feedback you have received may be in part due to your slightly abrupt opener on this thread. Ostricising those currently in/around the training system with a comment like "can't find their arseholes without a mirror" is at best mildly amusing banter but at worst it triggers anger and lack of respect towards those 'Old Crusties' who although attempting to instill the tactics and discipline of a past era are thwarted by a display of mild ignorance. I do note you are a veteran of this site but manners cost nothing Sir. Also goes to those who snapped back.. shame on you!
It has been good to read a thread that throws up a real argument regarding the training of today vs yesteryear but I feel some of the ultra negative feedback you have received may be in part due to your slightly abrupt opener on this thread. Ostricising those currently in/around the training system with a comment like "can't find their arseholes without a mirror" is at best mildly amusing banter but at worst it triggers anger and lack of respect towards those 'Old Crusties' who although attempting to instill the tactics and discipline of a past era are thwarted by a display of mild ignorance. I do note you are a veteran of this site but manners cost nothing Sir. Also goes to those who snapped back.. shame on you!
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I think Beagles initial post was a little derogatory, "back in my day" kind of approach but Godsavethequeen was his usual tactful self in response!! The Dalton isnt even muttered throughout the training system as far as i can see unless i have been asleep for 3 years, and the reason we dont give a **** about it is because we dont get taught to give a **** about it. I am afraid I fall in the category of not knowing where mine is and caring even less.
It seems to me that using a Dalton is very much like measuring with a micrometer, marking with chalk and chopping with a big axe! Is there any need for such minutiae when planning? MDR seems to work fine and as far as I can see, the Dalton would be only useful for high level planning. Which, as we keep getting told, is a means to an end, ie getting bombs on targets and getting home with enough motion lotion. Therefore it seems to have been (rightly or wrongly) condemned to history. I totally agree with gosavethequeen however that placng too much emphasis on using forecast winds on the ground to plan your mission is fundamentally flawed. To quote Beags, the met man can never usually find his arse with a mirror let alone give a decent forecast wind!
Anyway thats my toughts, now retiring to a safe distance and donning tin hat.
It seems to me that using a Dalton is very much like measuring with a micrometer, marking with chalk and chopping with a big axe! Is there any need for such minutiae when planning? MDR seems to work fine and as far as I can see, the Dalton would be only useful for high level planning. Which, as we keep getting told, is a means to an end, ie getting bombs on targets and getting home with enough motion lotion. Therefore it seems to have been (rightly or wrongly) condemned to history. I totally agree with gosavethequeen however that placng too much emphasis on using forecast winds on the ground to plan your mission is fundamentally flawed. To quote Beags, the met man can never usually find his arse with a mirror let alone give a decent forecast wind!
Anyway thats my toughts, now retiring to a safe distance and donning tin hat.
Thread Starter
No need for tin hat - unless you happen to like wearing them...??
I agree that to rely solely on forecast winds is unwise and also that the effect of incorrect drift or groundspeed calculations resulting from such methodology alone is of less importance at high TAS. BUT, and it is a big BUT, I cannot agree that the elementary skill of using the Dalton for low speed a/c naviagation pre-flight planning has no relevance these days. I know that the other Services still teach their students to use it - and for very good reasons.
An accurate pre-flight planning process using forecast winds will mean that in-flight corrections should be much smaller when correcting by obeserved error using SCA and proportional timing. Not that relevant at low level and high TAS, perhaps, but very definitely of relevance at 90 KIAS and 2500 ft.
I agree that to rely solely on forecast winds is unwise and also that the effect of incorrect drift or groundspeed calculations resulting from such methodology alone is of less importance at high TAS. BUT, and it is a big BUT, I cannot agree that the elementary skill of using the Dalton for low speed a/c naviagation pre-flight planning has no relevance these days. I know that the other Services still teach their students to use it - and for very good reasons.
An accurate pre-flight planning process using forecast winds will mean that in-flight corrections should be much smaller when correcting by obeserved error using SCA and proportional timing. Not that relevant at low level and high TAS, perhaps, but very definitely of relevance at 90 KIAS and 2500 ft.
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EFT Groundschool
Beags I agree with much of what you say. May I point out as one who was at the JEFTS coalface that the pressure to abandon the DC and go strongly for MDR was entirely from the Fast Jet mob, to whom it almost certainly is useless. In my view it is not sensible to fly at puddlejumping speeds in wind speeds of 20kts+ without modifying fixes/turning point times by proper calculation on the DC. It does not take long and saves much embarassment. In early pilot days nav should be relatively unfraught, all the hassle can come later.
Thread Starter
That's kinda what I'd guessed......
A 20 knot wind is only an insignificant 4.76% of a 420 KIAS fast jet's LL navigation speed - but it's 22.2% or nearly 1/4 of the speed of a 90 KIAS puddlejumper's. And highly significant.
Horses for courses....crawl, toddle, walk - then run! (Apologies for mixing my metaphors!).
I think that MDR is an excellent methodology when applied to the appropriate problem. But use of the DC is a core skill which does have its place to play in pilot training. To bin it completely at elementary flying level is rather a mistake, in my view.
I don't apologise for the tone of my original post - if one tosses a pebble into a pond, not much happens. Throw a hefty rock in and all sorts of stuff comes to the surface...
And remember the big red writing at the bottom of the page!
A 20 knot wind is only an insignificant 4.76% of a 420 KIAS fast jet's LL navigation speed - but it's 22.2% or nearly 1/4 of the speed of a 90 KIAS puddlejumper's. And highly significant.
Horses for courses....crawl, toddle, walk - then run! (Apologies for mixing my metaphors!).
I think that MDR is an excellent methodology when applied to the appropriate problem. But use of the DC is a core skill which does have its place to play in pilot training. To bin it completely at elementary flying level is rather a mistake, in my view.
I don't apologise for the tone of my original post - if one tosses a pebble into a pond, not much happens. Throw a hefty rock in and all sorts of stuff comes to the surface...
And remember the big red writing at the bottom of the page!
Beags, obviously TB and GWB are not aware of their metaphors
"if one tosses a pebble into a pond, not much happens. Throw a hefty rock in and all sorts of stuff comes to the surface"
Sorry could not resist it
"if one tosses a pebble into a pond, not much happens. Throw a hefty rock in and all sorts of stuff comes to the surface"
Sorry could not resist it
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Just to clear things up regarding the original post, given that I'm an ex-UAS stude enjoying the wonders of EFTS groundschool as we speak......
1. On the UAS you are not issued with a Dalton Computer, and not told how to use one either.
2. Following IOT, pilot studes undertake 4 weeks of groundschool at Cranwell where we ARE taught AND examined on how to use the machine and get issued with one.
We then head for Tucano, Squirrel, King Air etc.
Direct-entry RAF studes (plus Navy and Army) get the groundschool BEFORE they do EFT at the UASs or DEFTS.
Hence why your UAS stude didn't know how to work one. So as the UAS stude could not apply for a PPL using his Grob 115 flying until after groundschool, you can feel assured that all exemption-using RAF pilot studes do know how to work the Dalton.
1. On the UAS you are not issued with a Dalton Computer, and not told how to use one either.
2. Following IOT, pilot studes undertake 4 weeks of groundschool at Cranwell where we ARE taught AND examined on how to use the machine and get issued with one.
We then head for Tucano, Squirrel, King Air etc.
Direct-entry RAF studes (plus Navy and Army) get the groundschool BEFORE they do EFT at the UASs or DEFTS.
Hence why your UAS stude didn't know how to work one. So as the UAS stude could not apply for a PPL using his Grob 115 flying until after groundschool, you can feel assured that all exemption-using RAF pilot studes do know how to work the Dalton.
Thread Starter
So are you saying that non-DE UAS students are not taught pilot navigation pre-IOT? Or do they use some other technique on the UAS and then learn the theory of what they have been doing nearly a year later after having completed IOT and a 4-week groundschool?
Whereas others complete the groundschool first?
Groundschool before flying training. Well, there's a novel concept....
Whereas others complete the groundschool first?
Groundschool before flying training. Well, there's a novel concept....
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Beags
As a current UAS/EFT QFI I'm afraid I tend to avoid the DC. I emphasise good pre-flight planning (still wind), route study and then as the flight nears putting the wind on the map and thinking how it will affect the sortie ie MDR on the ground - which, surely, is little different from using the DC with the exception that with the DC one would put wind corrected hdgs and timings on the map.
I have used the DC often in the past and it has its merits, but so does the current technique of MDR - the student gets plenty of practice at a technique that he can carry forward to all fleets. Having flown with many civil light ac pilots I can't believe they are current on the DC either. They trust to that great God GPS and when it fails to pick up the satellites they start sweating like a pti in a spelling test.
As a current UAS/EFT QFI I'm afraid I tend to avoid the DC. I emphasise good pre-flight planning (still wind), route study and then as the flight nears putting the wind on the map and thinking how it will affect the sortie ie MDR on the ground - which, surely, is little different from using the DC with the exception that with the DC one would put wind corrected hdgs and timings on the map.
I have used the DC often in the past and it has its merits, but so does the current technique of MDR - the student gets plenty of practice at a technique that he can carry forward to all fleets. Having flown with many civil light ac pilots I can't believe they are current on the DC either. They trust to that great God GPS and when it fails to pick up the satellites they start sweating like a pti in a spelling test.
Thread Starter
I note your point of view, but the technique at medium level is subtly different to that at low level. There are likely to be fewer track changes - probably only 1 or 2 and relatively longer legs - and different considerations (airspace, other Golf Alfa err, err drivers, RT work as against terrain avoidance and feature recognition). I've heard of guys using a Brady rule to try to ackle the times on the day using the nearest 10 kt graduation after MDR guesstimation of GS; if you're going to go to that bother, instead of using 100 from the Brady rule, why not work out the correct GS using the front of the whizz-wheel, then put 60 against the accurate GS of, say, 96 and read off the time at pre-measured waypoints directly off the dist/time scales? A classic example of how an analogue computer can be quicker than a digital one, by the way!
We are under great pressure from the CAA to minimise airspace violations. Hence I insist that any of my puddle-jumper students plan as accurately as possible and then apply 'wind of the day' using the whizzer. They use SCA and proportional timing to correct in-flight, to amend heading from observed drift following assessment of the reasons for requiring a SCA correction, but the errors they should see will be much less if based upon accurate pre-flight planning using the computer.
Incidentally, when I was a UAS QFI, it was fairly obvious that few of my colleagues relished navigation trips - or cross-checked their students' planning, for that matter. Same old GH in the same old 'training area' was about the limit of their exploratory adventure! Pre-VOR/DME, the opportunity of a navex to, say, Cranwell was not welcomed by many. Too used to having a talking TACAN or two, I guess!
Re GPS, yes, a lot of folk pin their faith in that. We leave ours with a default of DTK, GS and ETA in the navigation fields, plus a 1 mile CDI bar. So the pilot can check GS and Desired Track against the expected values (I'm not an advocate of the 'Pilot Log Card', but the CAA are, unfortunately). Then if the correct heading is followed, the CDI will be a useful cross-check. But the GPS is a VFR-only back-up...and has been known to go tits-up at the most inopportune moment!
Sweating like a PTI at a spelling test....liked that line!
We are under great pressure from the CAA to minimise airspace violations. Hence I insist that any of my puddle-jumper students plan as accurately as possible and then apply 'wind of the day' using the whizzer. They use SCA and proportional timing to correct in-flight, to amend heading from observed drift following assessment of the reasons for requiring a SCA correction, but the errors they should see will be much less if based upon accurate pre-flight planning using the computer.
Incidentally, when I was a UAS QFI, it was fairly obvious that few of my colleagues relished navigation trips - or cross-checked their students' planning, for that matter. Same old GH in the same old 'training area' was about the limit of their exploratory adventure! Pre-VOR/DME, the opportunity of a navex to, say, Cranwell was not welcomed by many. Too used to having a talking TACAN or two, I guess!
Re GPS, yes, a lot of folk pin their faith in that. We leave ours with a default of DTK, GS and ETA in the navigation fields, plus a 1 mile CDI bar. So the pilot can check GS and Desired Track against the expected values (I'm not an advocate of the 'Pilot Log Card', but the CAA are, unfortunately). Then if the correct heading is followed, the CDI will be a useful cross-check. But the GPS is a VFR-only back-up...and has been known to go tits-up at the most inopportune moment!
Sweating like a PTI at a spelling test....liked that line!
Last edited by BEagle; 29th Jun 2004 at 16:12.
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BEags,
I thought that MDR was the basics!
Don't forget that all FJ guys in the training system are striving towards that bounced SAP at the end of 19 Sqn where a tgt has to be hit +/- 5 sec without any kit except a map and stopwatch! Must have been the same in your day and I'm sure that you remember this is obviously achieved by making drift and groundspeed corrections on the hoof to reach your waypopints. Not an easy task in mountainous terrain at 420 kt reacting to weather / aggressor jets etc etc.
Obviously this is a cold-war way to fight a mission but nevertheless a great way to test capacity and the RAF's only option until a modern jet trainer is available. Clearly the build up to this begins at EFT when you're flogging around in a Grob. To learn these techniques at the start of your RAF career is essential!
I see MDR as a critical test of capacity and skill in the training world - any monkey can plan a route before you get airborne (with or without a Dalton computer) but when the plan goes to rat-**** because your turn points are weathered out, that's when you start earning your money!
Back to my first point; MDR is the basics! The advanced stuff is surely leading a COMAO with night AAR, some TST, being tapped by some fags at LL all on the goggs beneath an overcast layer in no millilux in the Highlands!
I thought that MDR was the basics!
Don't forget that all FJ guys in the training system are striving towards that bounced SAP at the end of 19 Sqn where a tgt has to be hit +/- 5 sec without any kit except a map and stopwatch! Must have been the same in your day and I'm sure that you remember this is obviously achieved by making drift and groundspeed corrections on the hoof to reach your waypopints. Not an easy task in mountainous terrain at 420 kt reacting to weather / aggressor jets etc etc.
Obviously this is a cold-war way to fight a mission but nevertheless a great way to test capacity and the RAF's only option until a modern jet trainer is available. Clearly the build up to this begins at EFT when you're flogging around in a Grob. To learn these techniques at the start of your RAF career is essential!
I see MDR as a critical test of capacity and skill in the training world - any monkey can plan a route before you get airborne (with or without a Dalton computer) but when the plan goes to rat-**** because your turn points are weathered out, that's when you start earning your money!
Back to my first point; MDR is the basics! The advanced stuff is surely leading a COMAO with night AAR, some TST, being tapped by some fags at LL all on the goggs beneath an overcast layer in no millilux in the Highlands!
Thread Starter
Whilst noting your undoubted enthusiasm, I have to sate that in my day one learned how to walk before being taught how to run....
Yes, I was taught to navigate a Hunter to recce targets around Wales without any marks on a map whilst leading a PAI in another jet......but I'd also been taught how to navigate a Chipmunk properly using a Dalton for pre-flight planning just a couple of years earlier. The skill required for either task was not the same; regrettably that fact no longer appears to hold sway in the current training system.
Yes, I was taught to navigate a Hunter to recce targets around Wales without any marks on a map whilst leading a PAI in another jet......but I'd also been taught how to navigate a Chipmunk properly using a Dalton for pre-flight planning just a couple of years earlier. The skill required for either task was not the same; regrettably that fact no longer appears to hold sway in the current training system.
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Beagle
I can see this thread repeating itself every page. I think your last post is very telling. Chipmunk followed by Hunter followed by which frontline aircraft and more pertinently what 'Nav kit'. Much respect to your endeavour to cover all bases in instruction but I really don't regret the dissappearence of the DC in all aspects of Fast-jet stream training. Time is too short and there are far more relevant things to teach.
Fidae
Furthermore to the point about relying on GPS, I guess the redundancy of airborne aligning LINS, JTIDS prop nav, TACAN, ground mapping radar might help.
I can see this thread repeating itself every page. I think your last post is very telling. Chipmunk followed by Hunter followed by which frontline aircraft and more pertinently what 'Nav kit'. Much respect to your endeavour to cover all bases in instruction but I really don't regret the dissappearence of the DC in all aspects of Fast-jet stream training. Time is too short and there are far more relevant things to teach.
Fidae
Furthermore to the point about relying on GPS, I guess the redundancy of airborne aligning LINS, JTIDS prop nav, TACAN, ground mapping radar might help.
Thread Starter
"Time is too short"
Or rather "Time is too expensive nowadays"..??
Presumably that's JTIDS Relative Navigation, by the way?
Or rather "Time is too expensive nowadays"..??
Presumably that's JTIDS Relative Navigation, by the way?
Whilst noting your undoubted enthusiasm, I have to sate that in my day one learned how to walk before being taught how to run....
To many you come across as a dinosaur who couldn't crack it at the sharp end, for whatever reason, and spent the rest of your time firmly in the comfort zone. To preach in an arrogant and pompous manner simply leaves you open to ridicule.
Any spelling and grammar mistakes are because I'm not very good at it.
Thread Starter
Of course you're entitled to that opinion - but the fact remains that basic navigation theory is unaffected by the passage of time. I happen to think that the axiomatic triangle of velocities is best understood by use of the DC at the elementary stage for medium level nav planning - by all means chuck it in the bin later on if you wish when you're flying something rather more interesting! But to leave it out of basic pilot education altogether is, to my mind, rather akin to leaving out the need for children to learn multiplication tables on the grounds that they'll all be using calculators for the rest of their lives.
Oh - and I don't normally comment on my perception of others on PPRuNe. Except for that correspondent called godsavethequeen whose tone was well out of order. However, others 'discussed matters' with him as well...
Oh - and I don't normally comment on my perception of others on PPRuNe. Except for that correspondent called godsavethequeen whose tone was well out of order. However, others 'discussed matters' with him as well...
Last edited by BEagle; 30th Jun 2004 at 10:33.