Piers Morgan fired
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Piers Morgan fired
. . and I would consider a charge of treason.
If I were in his position I'd be running scared that the parents of anyone killed as a result of publication of inflamatory fake photographs may consider taking direct action
If I were in his position I'd be running scared that the parents of anyone killed as a result of publication of inflamatory fake photographs may consider taking direct action
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I dont think he will have a problem getting another job. He's a celebrity, regardless of why. That is afterall the nature of our 'culture' now. Just look at that fat cow Jade from big brother. How the fcuk can she earn more than me?? He'll be doing the circuit for years, earning big bucks. What has our country come to?
Just give me five minutes of 'debriefing' time with him to educate him of the errors of his ways.
I recommend he pops up to the North West and does the book signing scam.
Just give me five minutes of 'debriefing' time with him to educate him of the errors of his ways.
I recommend he pops up to the North West and does the book signing scam.
It's extremely hard not to celebrate the firing of Mr Morgan (especially for me, since under Captain Bob, the Mirror Group bounced a cheque and never redressed their failure to pay me!). When the messenger is as odious and smug as Piers, I'm all for shooting him, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that that is exactly what we are doing.
The Mirror published faked photographs (perhaps knowingly, perhaps without taking sensible precautions to ascertain their veracity) and should be condemned and even punished for doing so. At the same time, it must be recognised that the paper did so to illustrate a story which was based on a real issue.
One can only hope that this sideshow does not come to obscure the underlying story, as the Gilligan/Kelly/BBC/Hutton story came to obscure the fundamental underlying issue (that the Government took the country to war justifying its action on a premise which it knew, or should have known, to be false).
In this case, it is known that six Iraqis have died in British custody, and it must be acknowledged that the ICRC failed to draw a clear distinction between the US and UK when condemning the brutality exhibited by some elements within the coalition forces in Iraq. There is, therefore, a real concern that UK forces may be engaging in exactly the kind of behaviour which the staged photos purported to show.
The Mirror published faked photographs (perhaps knowingly, perhaps without taking sensible precautions to ascertain their veracity) and should be condemned and even punished for doing so. At the same time, it must be recognised that the paper did so to illustrate a story which was based on a real issue.
One can only hope that this sideshow does not come to obscure the underlying story, as the Gilligan/Kelly/BBC/Hutton story came to obscure the fundamental underlying issue (that the Government took the country to war justifying its action on a premise which it knew, or should have known, to be false).
In this case, it is known that six Iraqis have died in British custody, and it must be acknowledged that the ICRC failed to draw a clear distinction between the US and UK when condemning the brutality exhibited by some elements within the coalition forces in Iraq. There is, therefore, a real concern that UK forces may be engaging in exactly the kind of behaviour which the staged photos purported to show.
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Good to see a tabloid getting some of their own medicine. Taking on the British Army with pictures of unknown origin was never a clever idea though. There was only ever going to be one winner.
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Even if these pictures had been genuine, Morgan still shouldn't have published them, since they would obviously provoke attacks against our troops. However, I do find it perverse that he and Gilligan have had to resign, whilst Blair and Hoon keep their jobs.
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What is sad about this whole sorry story is that it would not have happened at all in the days when this was a decent society. Sure, in war there always were excesses and wanton brutality but we never washed our own dirty linen in international view. Investigative journalism is one thing but when it verges on treason it should be punished accordingly.
One cannot condone the behaviour of a few in this war but they were a few and the majority of our forces did more than any of us deserved and with distinction and honour. One must not fog the issue with cries that the war was unjust - many of our troops felt the same way but they nevertheless did their duty. They deserved the support of the tabloids not the stab in the back.
I sincerely hope that the rag Piers edited is punished by the few decent people left in our society by being left on the shelf.
One cannot condone the behaviour of a few in this war but they were a few and the majority of our forces did more than any of us deserved and with distinction and honour. One must not fog the issue with cries that the war was unjust - many of our troops felt the same way but they nevertheless did their duty. They deserved the support of the tabloids not the stab in the back.
I sincerely hope that the rag Piers edited is punished by the few decent people left in our society by being left on the shelf.
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What impressed me the most in the whole sorry mess was the incredibly professional hatchet job – (for that’s what it was, in no uncertain terms) – that the Brigadier and the ex-CO of the QLR did on Morgan in their press conference. I was a total pleasure to see two senior officers handle the media so consummately well, making their case step by step so that even the journos could follow it.
I thought their real master stroke was the young Lance Corporal who demonstrated the two versions of the SA80. (And please, don’t let someone tell me that using a young LCpl - “just an average QLR squaddie” – (who handled himself and the media every bit as professionally as his Brigadier), rather than a SNCO or WO wasn’t a carefully considered part of the plan to show the high standard of the average soldier in the regiment).
I’m waiting with bated breath to see what will happen when the identities of the people who staged the fake photographs are revealed. Will the photographer turn out to be a squaddie (who just happened to know an awful lot – too much, in fact – about photography), or will the man behind the camera turn out to be a civilian photographer from the ‘Daily Mirror’?
I’m guessing that the gentlemen concerned will be wanting to be a long way away from any barracks, and will be ‘doing a Maxine Carr’ when they are released from prison, (which I hope will not be for a very long time). I also suspect that they might see at close hand some real ‘stress positions’ in any prison they might ‘attend’ after their trails.
I thought their real master stroke was the young Lance Corporal who demonstrated the two versions of the SA80. (And please, don’t let someone tell me that using a young LCpl - “just an average QLR squaddie” – (who handled himself and the media every bit as professionally as his Brigadier), rather than a SNCO or WO wasn’t a carefully considered part of the plan to show the high standard of the average soldier in the regiment).
I’m waiting with bated breath to see what will happen when the identities of the people who staged the fake photographs are revealed. Will the photographer turn out to be a squaddie (who just happened to know an awful lot – too much, in fact – about photography), or will the man behind the camera turn out to be a civilian photographer from the ‘Daily Mirror’?
I’m guessing that the gentlemen concerned will be wanting to be a long way away from any barracks, and will be ‘doing a Maxine Carr’ when they are released from prison, (which I hope will not be for a very long time). I also suspect that they might see at close hand some real ‘stress positions’ in any prison they might ‘attend’ after their trails.
"What is sad about this whole sorry story is that it would not have happened at all in the days when this was a decent society."
Perhaps there was greater confidence that those higher up the chain would behave honestly and honourably, and tackle the problems, rather than try and spin their way out of them?
This supposed 'stab in the back' has come after the war, and at the very time that the ICRC is making unparallelled and uncomfortable criticisms of the behaviour of coalition forces. These may have been 'made up' pictures, but it's not a made up story, and brushing it aside will not wash. The British Army is not the Waffen SS........
"In Its "Report an the Treatment by the Coalition Forces of Prisoners of War and other protected persons in Iraq", the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) drew attention of the Coalition Forces to a number of serious violations of International Humanitarian Law. These violations have been documented and sometimes observed while visiting prisoners of war, civilian internees and other protected persons by the Geneva Conventions in Iraq between March and November 2003.
The main violations were described in the ICRC report:
* Brutality against protected persons upon capture and initial custody, sometimes causing death or serious injury
* Absence of notification of arrest of persons deprived of their liberty to their families rousing distress among persons deprived of their liberty and their families
* Physical or psychological coercion during interrogation to secure information
* Prolonged solitary confinement in cells devoid of daylight
* Excessive and disproportionate use of force against persons deprived of their liberty resulting in death or injury during their period of internment
Serious problems of conduct by the CF affecting persons deprived of their liberty are also presented in the report:
* Seizure and confiscation of private belongings of persons deprived of their liberty
* Exposure of persons deprived of their liberty to dangerous tasks
* Holding persons deprived of their liberty in dangerous places where they are not protected from shelling
According to allegations collected by ICRC delegates during private interviews with persons deprived of their liberty, ill-treatment during capture was frequent. While certain circumstances might require defensive precautions and the use of force on the part of battle group units, the ICRC collected allegations of ill-treatment following capture which took place in Baghdad, Basrah, Ramadi and Tikrit, indicating a consistent pattern with respect to times and places of brutal behavior during arrest. The repetition of such behavior by CF appeared to go beyond the reasonable, legitimate and proportional use of force required to apprehend suspects or restrain persons resisting arrest or capture, and seemed to repeat a usual modus operandi by certain CF battle group units.
According to the allegations collected by the ICRC, ill-treatment during interrogation was not systematic, except with regard to persons arrested in connection with suspected security offences or deemed to have an "intelligence" value. In these cases, persons deprived of their liberty under supervision of the Military Intelligence were at high risk of being subjected to a variety of harsh treatments ranging from insults, threats and humiliations to both physical and psychological coercion, which in some cases was tantamount to torture, in order to force cooperation with their interrogators.
The ICRC was also concerned about the excessive and disproportionate use of force by some detaining authorities against persons deprived of their liberty involved during their internment during periods of unrest or escape attempts that caused death and serious injuries. The use of firearms against persons deprived of their liberty in circumstances where methods without using firearms could have yielded the same result could amount to a serious violation of International Humanitarian Law. The ICRC reviewed a number of incidents of shootings of persons deprived of their liberty with live bullets, which have resulted in deaths or injuries during periods of unrest related to conditions of internment or escape attempts. Investigations initiated by the CF into these incidents concluded that the use of firearms against persons deprived of their liberty was legitimate. However, non-lethal measures could have been used to obtain the same results and quell the demonstrations, or neutralize persons deprived of their liberty trying to escape."
and
resting authorities entered houses usually after dark, breaking down doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members into tins room under military guard while searching the rest of the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property. They arrested suspects, tying their hands in the back with flexi-cuffs, hooding them, and taking them away. Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people. Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles. Individuals were often led away in whatever they happened to be wearing at the time of arrest - sometimes in pyjamas or underwear - and were denied the opportunity to gather a few essential belongings, such as clothing, hygiene items, medicine or eyeglasses. Those who surrendered with a suitcase often had their belongings confiscated. In many cases personal belongings were seized during the arrest, with no receipt being issued (see section 6, below).
7. Certain CF military intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70% and 90% of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.
8. In accordance with provisions of International humanitarian Law which oblige the CF to treat prisoners of war and other protected persons humanely and to protect them against acts of violence, threats thereof, intimidation and insults (Art. 13 14,17, 87, Third Geneva Convention; Art. 5, 27, 31,32, 33 Fourth Geneva Convention); the ICRC asks the authorities of CF to respect at all times the human dignity. physical integrity and cultural sensitivity of the persons deprived of their liberty held under their control. The ICRC also asks the authorities of CF to ensure that battle group units arresting individuals receive adequate training enabling them to operate in a proper manner and fulfill their responsibilities without resorting to brutality or using excessive force.
and (in Basrah!)
13. One allegation collected by the ICRC concerned the arrest of nine men by the CF in a hotel in Basrah on 13 September 2003. Following their arrest, the nine men were made to kneel, face and hands against the ground, as if in a prayer position. The soldiers stamped on the back of the neck of those raising their head. They confiscated their money without issuing a receipt. The suspects were taken to Al-Hakimiya, a former office previously used by the mukhabarat in Basrah and then beaten severely by CF personnel. One of the arrestees died following the ill-treatment (################# aged 28, married, father of two children). Prior to his death, his co-arrestees heard him screaming and asking for assistance.
The issued "International Death Certificate" mentioned "Cardio-respiratory arrest - asphyxia" as the condition directly leading to the death. As to the cause of that condition. it mentioned "Unknown" and "Refer to the coroner". The certificate did not bear any other mention. An eyewitness' description of the body given to the ICRC mentioned a broken nose, several broken ribs and skin lesions on the face consistent with beatings. The father of the victim was informed of his death on 18 September, and was invited to identify the body of his son. On 3 October, the commander of the CF in Basrah presented to him his condolences and informed him that an investigation had been launched and that those responsible would be punished. Two other persons deprived of their liberty were hospitalised with severe injuries. Similarly, a week later, an ICRC medical doctor examined them in the hospital and observed large haematomas with dried scabs on the abdomen, buttocks, sides, thigh, wrists, nose and forehead consistent with their accounts of beatings received.
Perhaps there was greater confidence that those higher up the chain would behave honestly and honourably, and tackle the problems, rather than try and spin their way out of them?
This supposed 'stab in the back' has come after the war, and at the very time that the ICRC is making unparallelled and uncomfortable criticisms of the behaviour of coalition forces. These may have been 'made up' pictures, but it's not a made up story, and brushing it aside will not wash. The British Army is not the Waffen SS........
"In Its "Report an the Treatment by the Coalition Forces of Prisoners of War and other protected persons in Iraq", the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) drew attention of the Coalition Forces to a number of serious violations of International Humanitarian Law. These violations have been documented and sometimes observed while visiting prisoners of war, civilian internees and other protected persons by the Geneva Conventions in Iraq between March and November 2003.
The main violations were described in the ICRC report:
* Brutality against protected persons upon capture and initial custody, sometimes causing death or serious injury
* Absence of notification of arrest of persons deprived of their liberty to their families rousing distress among persons deprived of their liberty and their families
* Physical or psychological coercion during interrogation to secure information
* Prolonged solitary confinement in cells devoid of daylight
* Excessive and disproportionate use of force against persons deprived of their liberty resulting in death or injury during their period of internment
Serious problems of conduct by the CF affecting persons deprived of their liberty are also presented in the report:
* Seizure and confiscation of private belongings of persons deprived of their liberty
* Exposure of persons deprived of their liberty to dangerous tasks
* Holding persons deprived of their liberty in dangerous places where they are not protected from shelling
According to allegations collected by ICRC delegates during private interviews with persons deprived of their liberty, ill-treatment during capture was frequent. While certain circumstances might require defensive precautions and the use of force on the part of battle group units, the ICRC collected allegations of ill-treatment following capture which took place in Baghdad, Basrah, Ramadi and Tikrit, indicating a consistent pattern with respect to times and places of brutal behavior during arrest. The repetition of such behavior by CF appeared to go beyond the reasonable, legitimate and proportional use of force required to apprehend suspects or restrain persons resisting arrest or capture, and seemed to repeat a usual modus operandi by certain CF battle group units.
According to the allegations collected by the ICRC, ill-treatment during interrogation was not systematic, except with regard to persons arrested in connection with suspected security offences or deemed to have an "intelligence" value. In these cases, persons deprived of their liberty under supervision of the Military Intelligence were at high risk of being subjected to a variety of harsh treatments ranging from insults, threats and humiliations to both physical and psychological coercion, which in some cases was tantamount to torture, in order to force cooperation with their interrogators.
The ICRC was also concerned about the excessive and disproportionate use of force by some detaining authorities against persons deprived of their liberty involved during their internment during periods of unrest or escape attempts that caused death and serious injuries. The use of firearms against persons deprived of their liberty in circumstances where methods without using firearms could have yielded the same result could amount to a serious violation of International Humanitarian Law. The ICRC reviewed a number of incidents of shootings of persons deprived of their liberty with live bullets, which have resulted in deaths or injuries during periods of unrest related to conditions of internment or escape attempts. Investigations initiated by the CF into these incidents concluded that the use of firearms against persons deprived of their liberty was legitimate. However, non-lethal measures could have been used to obtain the same results and quell the demonstrations, or neutralize persons deprived of their liberty trying to escape."
and
resting authorities entered houses usually after dark, breaking down doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members into tins room under military guard while searching the rest of the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property. They arrested suspects, tying their hands in the back with flexi-cuffs, hooding them, and taking them away. Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people. Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles. Individuals were often led away in whatever they happened to be wearing at the time of arrest - sometimes in pyjamas or underwear - and were denied the opportunity to gather a few essential belongings, such as clothing, hygiene items, medicine or eyeglasses. Those who surrendered with a suitcase often had their belongings confiscated. In many cases personal belongings were seized during the arrest, with no receipt being issued (see section 6, below).
7. Certain CF military intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70% and 90% of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.
8. In accordance with provisions of International humanitarian Law which oblige the CF to treat prisoners of war and other protected persons humanely and to protect them against acts of violence, threats thereof, intimidation and insults (Art. 13 14,17, 87, Third Geneva Convention; Art. 5, 27, 31,32, 33 Fourth Geneva Convention); the ICRC asks the authorities of CF to respect at all times the human dignity. physical integrity and cultural sensitivity of the persons deprived of their liberty held under their control. The ICRC also asks the authorities of CF to ensure that battle group units arresting individuals receive adequate training enabling them to operate in a proper manner and fulfill their responsibilities without resorting to brutality or using excessive force.
and (in Basrah!)
13. One allegation collected by the ICRC concerned the arrest of nine men by the CF in a hotel in Basrah on 13 September 2003. Following their arrest, the nine men were made to kneel, face and hands against the ground, as if in a prayer position. The soldiers stamped on the back of the neck of those raising their head. They confiscated their money without issuing a receipt. The suspects were taken to Al-Hakimiya, a former office previously used by the mukhabarat in Basrah and then beaten severely by CF personnel. One of the arrestees died following the ill-treatment (################# aged 28, married, father of two children). Prior to his death, his co-arrestees heard him screaming and asking for assistance.
The issued "International Death Certificate" mentioned "Cardio-respiratory arrest - asphyxia" as the condition directly leading to the death. As to the cause of that condition. it mentioned "Unknown" and "Refer to the coroner". The certificate did not bear any other mention. An eyewitness' description of the body given to the ICRC mentioned a broken nose, several broken ribs and skin lesions on the face consistent with beatings. The father of the victim was informed of his death on 18 September, and was invited to identify the body of his son. On 3 October, the commander of the CF in Basrah presented to him his condolences and informed him that an investigation had been launched and that those responsible would be punished. Two other persons deprived of their liberty were hospitalised with severe injuries. Similarly, a week later, an ICRC medical doctor examined them in the hospital and observed large haematomas with dried scabs on the abdomen, buttocks, sides, thigh, wrists, nose and forehead consistent with their accounts of beatings received.
Thread Starter
Engineer,
<<whether fake or not it at least these pictures highlighted the abuse that maybe going on>>
Are you really serious? Do you mean because we've seen high quality pictures of a little mouse called Jerry getting the better of a cat called Tom that the mice are guilty of duffing up cats?
Jackonicko,
The ICRC was allowed access to prisons - I do not believe that was permitted in Saddam's time.
There is a guerrilla war in progress. The injuries referred to could have been sustained in battle, resisting arrest or because an over wrought soldier is pissed off with being fired upon or seeing his colleagues injured or killed.
<<According to the allegations collected by the ICRC, ill-treatment . . . not systematic, . . . variety of harsh treatments ranging from insults, threats and humiliations to both physical and psychological coercion, which in some cases was tantamount to torture, in order to force cooperation with their interrogators. >>
In other words the ICRC are saying that this DOES NOT amount to torture but may have had the same effect.
Have any of you pundits been in battle? I haven't but I can imagine just slightly how the troops feel.
I certainly would not approach them or allow my little kids to go begging sweets from guys who (necessarily) have their fingers on the trigger. I am sorry for the little girl who was shot and for her family but one has to ask if kids should be allowed out to run around men at war?
<<whether fake or not it at least these pictures highlighted the abuse that maybe going on>>
Are you really serious? Do you mean because we've seen high quality pictures of a little mouse called Jerry getting the better of a cat called Tom that the mice are guilty of duffing up cats?
Jackonicko,
The ICRC was allowed access to prisons - I do not believe that was permitted in Saddam's time.
There is a guerrilla war in progress. The injuries referred to could have been sustained in battle, resisting arrest or because an over wrought soldier is pissed off with being fired upon or seeing his colleagues injured or killed.
<<According to the allegations collected by the ICRC, ill-treatment . . . not systematic, . . . variety of harsh treatments ranging from insults, threats and humiliations to both physical and psychological coercion, which in some cases was tantamount to torture, in order to force cooperation with their interrogators. >>
In other words the ICRC are saying that this DOES NOT amount to torture but may have had the same effect.
Have any of you pundits been in battle? I haven't but I can imagine just slightly how the troops feel.
I certainly would not approach them or allow my little kids to go begging sweets from guys who (necessarily) have their fingers on the trigger. I am sorry for the little girl who was shot and for her family but one has to ask if kids should be allowed out to run around men at war?
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hear is a question for all the armchair critics out there. Once the Iraqi forces/governing bodies take over, if i continue to get stoned, shot at , rocketed and mortared by the fine people of this country will i be able to sue for compensation? I would say probably not.
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Sorry Jacko
You always acquit yourself extremely well on this forum with facts, research and eloquence (So you're not a real Journalist then ?
)
However, the Mirror fit up has confirmed all our fears that the media are second only to Politicians in their mendacity and self interest, and that in itself is bad for our one sided democracy.
Unsavoury incidents occur in Wartime and that is a sad fact of life. Interesting to note that the same people who scream fit up when the police get a little "over zealous" are only too prepared to use the same tactics to achieve a political aim. The Mirror has proven itself to be yet another cynical organ for misinformation and spin, the very thing it professes to despise in anything right handed.
You always acquit yourself extremely well on this forum with facts, research and eloquence (So you're not a real Journalist then ?
)However, the Mirror fit up has confirmed all our fears that the media are second only to Politicians in their mendacity and self interest, and that in itself is bad for our one sided democracy.
Unsavoury incidents occur in Wartime and that is a sad fact of life. Interesting to note that the same people who scream fit up when the police get a little "over zealous" are only too prepared to use the same tactics to achieve a political aim. The Mirror has proven itself to be yet another cynical organ for misinformation and spin, the very thing it professes to despise in anything right handed.
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Basil
What a analogy abuse of detainees with a Hanna and Barbera cartoon characters. Must have missed that episode where Jerry hooded Tom and then pi$$ed on him.
Maybe Chuck Jones could do the voice overs for some of the pictures (if he was still alive that is).
is this the eye for an eye tooth for a tooth syndrome shining through here
P101
Is the war still on? or is this an occupying force trying to maintain stability
What a analogy abuse of detainees with a Hanna and Barbera cartoon characters. Must have missed that episode where Jerry hooded Tom and then pi$$ed on him.
Maybe Chuck Jones could do the voice overs for some of the pictures (if he was still alive that is).
The ICRC was allowed access to prisons - I do not believe that was permitted in Saddam's time.
P101
Unsavoury incidents occur in Wartime and that is a sad fact of life.
Thread Starter
The point which I was attempting to make was the ridiculous use of FAKE pictures to support something which "someone" IMAGINED MAY have happened.
I have been to Basra. If I felt that my child had been targetted as a direct result of the publication of these FAKE photos I would be extremely displeased.
<<eye tooth >>
I think you may have misunderstood me. I was pointing out one of the differences between the two regimes.
However, since you mention it, I haven't seen anyone suggest that the sawing off of the head of Nick Berg was like for like retaliation for relatively normal pre interrogation treatment of guerrillas. Poor darlings - a hood over their head and their little willies on display and there's a guy on BBC telling us how much of an insult this is to a Muslim. Well I have news for him - we Christians don't particularly like it either but there's a war on and, as far as I know, WE are NOT cold bloodedly cutting prisoners heads off.
I would re-iterate - I was never in favour of the invasion and do not blindly support it. There are no WMD. Our incompetent politicians have got us into a mess. I am not prepared to sit quietly and hear the British military blamed by incompetent greedy journalists.
I have been to Basra. If I felt that my child had been targetted as a direct result of the publication of these FAKE photos I would be extremely displeased.
<<eye tooth >>
I think you may have misunderstood me. I was pointing out one of the differences between the two regimes.
However, since you mention it, I haven't seen anyone suggest that the sawing off of the head of Nick Berg was like for like retaliation for relatively normal pre interrogation treatment of guerrillas. Poor darlings - a hood over their head and their little willies on display and there's a guy on BBC telling us how much of an insult this is to a Muslim. Well I have news for him - we Christians don't particularly like it either but there's a war on and, as far as I know, WE are NOT cold bloodedly cutting prisoners heads off.
I would re-iterate - I was never in favour of the invasion and do not blindly support it. There are no WMD. Our incompetent politicians have got us into a mess. I am not prepared to sit quietly and hear the British military blamed by incompetent greedy journalists.
Last edited by Basil; 16th May 2004 at 08:43.
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Engineer
""""Is the war still on? or is this an occupying force trying to maintain stability""""""
Good Point
However, I was alluding to the fact that the cases involved have been sub judice for quite some time and any such practices will have been stomped on to the nth degree now.
Also, I believe the transparency of the Military and the gathering of evidence for possible Courts Martial was the catalyst for the media reporting ? Reporting which turned into farce.
I believe that when you are killing and being killed, War is as good a name for it as any.
"Police Actions" tend to be very messy because of untidy ROE and the fact that British Soldiers have been prosecuted or been called to legal account in the past (Ireland, VCP; Gibraltar "shoot to kill" etc etc ) for doing their job in the heat of a particular hostile situation and this is a limiting factor in protecting oneself.
Also. try not to forget what a **** magnet Iraq has become for International terror groups. Good kill zone, preferable to our own turf !
""""Is the war still on? or is this an occupying force trying to maintain stability""""""
Good Point
However, I was alluding to the fact that the cases involved have been sub judice for quite some time and any such practices will have been stomped on to the nth degree now. Also, I believe the transparency of the Military and the gathering of evidence for possible Courts Martial was the catalyst for the media reporting ? Reporting which turned into farce.
I believe that when you are killing and being killed, War is as good a name for it as any.
"Police Actions" tend to be very messy because of untidy ROE and the fact that British Soldiers have been prosecuted or been called to legal account in the past (Ireland, VCP; Gibraltar "shoot to kill" etc etc ) for doing their job in the heat of a particular hostile situation and this is a limiting factor in protecting oneself.
Also. try not to forget what a **** magnet Iraq has become for International terror groups. Good kill zone, preferable to our own turf !
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Basil
But it would appear that in the IRCR there is blame.
Maybe blame needs to be attributed a bit like the Dol Dol incident which also involved the BA
There maybe need for concern When a Muslim sees his fellow religious brother abused he may feel the need to act. The Berg incident is a classic example of the eye for an eye syndrome. When you occupy a country you need to have a sneaky clean image If you dont except the consequences
Pilgrim101
Never allude facts talk for themselves Iraq is a totally different culture like most of the muslim states for a complete understanding you would need to be both muslim and arabic that is why the western culture is entrenched there now
I am not prepared to sit quietly and hear the British military blamed
Maybe blame needs to be attributed a bit like the Dol Dol incident which also involved the BA
There maybe need for concern When a Muslim sees his fellow religious brother abused he may feel the need to act. The Berg incident is a classic example of the eye for an eye syndrome. When you occupy a country you need to have a sneaky clean image If you dont except the consequences
Pilgrim101
Never allude facts talk for themselves Iraq is a totally different culture like most of the muslim states for a complete understanding you would need to be both muslim and arabic that is why the western culture is entrenched there now
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Engineer,
Not entirely true; as a fluent Arabic speaker who has served in Oman, UAE, Kuwait and Jordan and other several Moslem societies over many years I think the reaction to the lies and propaganda put out by the politically inspired Mirror will have immense repercussions in a highly volatile situation. The fact remains that Morgan played to an audience, gambled with our lives and lied to the British public and the world. Sadly, the indications are that many are prepared to overlook the fabrication of such evidence to achieve their own agendas in todays cynical media and political environments.
Amateurish reporting too if I may observe. Many on this forum argue and present their case much more eloquently than the average Fleet Street tabloid hack.
By the way, the region has been steeped in Western influence for decades if not hundreds of years. Have you visited Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Bahrain etc etc For those laughingly regarded as "third world" Countries, many put the UK infrastructure to shame.
Sadly we can\'t get the toothpaste back into the tube !
Not entirely true; as a fluent Arabic speaker who has served in Oman, UAE, Kuwait and Jordan and other several Moslem societies over many years I think the reaction to the lies and propaganda put out by the politically inspired Mirror will have immense repercussions in a highly volatile situation. The fact remains that Morgan played to an audience, gambled with our lives and lied to the British public and the world. Sadly, the indications are that many are prepared to overlook the fabrication of such evidence to achieve their own agendas in todays cynical media and political environments.
Amateurish reporting too if I may observe. Many on this forum argue and present their case much more eloquently than the average Fleet Street tabloid hack.
By the way, the region has been steeped in Western influence for decades if not hundreds of years. Have you visited Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Bahrain etc etc For those laughingly regarded as "third world" Countries, many put the UK infrastructure to shame.
Sadly we can\'t get the toothpaste back into the tube !
Thread Starter
Eng,
Please don't edit my comment and then quote it back at me. Are you a journalist?
<<When a Muslim sees his fellow religious brother abused he may feel the need to act.>>
Am I, as a European Christian, permitted to feel the same need to act? Should Christians all now rush out and begin lopping Islamic heads? I don't think so.
Oh, and ref: <<Must have missed that episode where Jerry hooded Tom and then pi$$ed on him.>> That, of course was one of the fakes.
Please don't edit my comment and then quote it back at me. Are you a journalist?
<<When a Muslim sees his fellow religious brother abused he may feel the need to act.>>
Am I, as a European Christian, permitted to feel the same need to act? Should Christians all now rush out and begin lopping Islamic heads? I don't think so.
Oh, and ref: <<Must have missed that episode where Jerry hooded Tom and then pi$$ed on him.>> That, of course was one of the fakes.