F4 Phantom

[Knucklehead]

Jag Shoot Down

Originally Posted by Akrotiri bad boy

I was very close to that F700 when Flt Lt signed for 4 sparrows, 4 'winders, and 1000 in the can. I was closer still to the scorch marks when Flt Lt brought back just 3 'winders.

As for the excuses, it wasn't aircrew's finest moment when it came to pointing the finger. Could it just possibly have been that old sloppy link between seat and stick that failed?

There were other factors involved. Far from flying regularly with live weapons at the end of a generation exercise wiser heads recognised that the F4's weapons system wasn't exactly safe. Therefore after aircraft generation with confirmed serviceable Sparrow and Sidewinder systems the exercise stopped while live weapons were downloaded and acquisition Sidewinders and sim plugs fitted. On the fateful day the Station Commander for whatever reason skipped the downloads and launched the wing live.

The crew involved manned up late. They had both recently moved off base to local hirings and the recall plan did not reflect this. Another crew on local leave stood in while they were found. They scrambled soon after taking over and concentrated on coping with new unfamiliar Supplan Mike departure and arrival procedures. Beside the pulled cct breaker in the rear cockpit, armed aircraft were supposed to have the armmament master switch in the front cockpit immobilised with orange dayglo tape. It's 24 years ago but I'm pretty certain that the tape wasn't there. This is understandable as our armourers did not expect the jets to be launched live. They then met the Jaguar pair at Borkun (the largest POL in N Germany) at 1000' QNH and shot down No 2.

There was an interesting sequel. On the next generation exercise the CO decided to launch us again with live weapons to prove that we could operate safely. However there was a slight variation on the theme. Instead of mounting the usual autonomous LL CAPs. we were to survival scramble on vertical dispersal and carry out ML PIs under GCI control with the controllers chanting 'Check switches safe' at about 15 second intervals. These instructions were passed on telebrief to all HASs before the mass scramble. Unfortunately one crew were sunning themselves outside their HAS because an EOD exercise was going on inside. They manned up about a minute before the scramble and got airborne blissfully unaware of the plan. The R/T on Clutch was bedlam as everyone vied for handoffs to GCI, so spotting a VFR area below, the unbriefed crew stopped their climb and told Clutch that they were off to low level. Three aircraft behind them assumed that our heroes knew something that they didn't and followed them. The four then set up the usual LL CAP and spent a pleasant hour or so chasing sundry 2TAF aircraft around the N German plain. Apparently the CO was not best pleased at this apparent flouting of his cunning plan as he could see his smooth inexorable climb to ACM possibly checked. Of course it wasn't.

Some years later I met the Jaguar leader who became a good friend despite my, to him, dubious background. He told me that as they approached Borkun, Clutch reported a fast mover in their 12 o'clock so they widened to look for it. On roll out he looked back for his No 2 in time to see his tail fall off. He immediately shouted at him to eject which undoubtedly helped 2's decision making process as he was low and slightly confused to put it mildly. Incidentally that Jaguar pair eventually shared 3 ejections between them.

This sorry tale has a relatively happy ending. I fully second the remarks about what a good bloke and operator the pilot was. I too flew with him on the OCU as a student and later on the squadron. He left the service for a short while and then rejoined. He did in fact get his scraper and some time later was commended for an outstanding contribution to aircraft operations.

[granmarriott]

Originally Posted by Knucklehead

Beside the pulled cct breaker in the rear cockpit, armed aircraft were supposed to have the armmament master switch in the front cockpit immobilised with orange dayglo tape. It's 24 years ago but I'm pretty certain that the tape wasn't there. This is understandable as our armourers did not expect the jets to be launched live. They then met the Jaguar pair at Borkun (the largest POL in N Germany) at 1000' QNH and shot down No 2.

.

Hang on a minute, the taping up of master arm switches came about as a result of the phantom pilot forgetting to see the 8 fooking big missiles and a gun hanging underneath his aeroplane, same guy not reading the armament state of his aeroplane, and for all I know same guy's gung ho attitude causing him not the armourers to shoot down a friend

Trying to shift the blame even a small portion of it on to guys who sweat blood arming your mounts is quite simply out of order but sadly it is expected.

you might have guessed by now i was an armourer on phantoms and quite prepared to accept my share of a f*ck up if merited. In this case the blame lies solely with the trigger presser

[granmarriott]

Originally Posted by maxburner

I guess that would have been the infamous Pops, with the tendency to put a bootfull of rudder in whenever the mood took it. I was on 23 from 79 until 82. Must admit I loved the Wattisham area.

Yes it would have been "P" of UCM fame. also remember "c" serving time by the aircrew crewroom for a couple of months.

I too was on 23 79/82 Are you the jockey who still owes me for a visit to tacky ton and a few extra red holes in his banner to ensure qualifying at Akrotiri

[Geehovah]

Originally Posted by granmarriott

Hang on a minute, the taping up of master arm switches came about as a result of the phantom pilot forgetting to see the 8 fooking big missiles and a gun hanging underneath his aeroplane, same guy not reading the armament state of his aeroplane, and for all I know same guy's gung ho attitude causing him not the armourers to shoot down a friend

Trying to shift the blame even a small portion of it on to guys who sweat blood arming your mounts is quite simply out of order but sadly it is expected.

you might have guessed by now i was an armourer on phantoms and quite prepared to accept my share of a f*ck up if merited. In this case the blame lies solely with the trigger presser

Remembering said incident very well, lets not get off track.

Mr McDonnell spent many hours designing sim plugs and aq rounds that simulate precisely what you should see from an armed aircraft when its carrying only training rounds. The eminent psychologist explained this very well at the CM.

And I agree, both guys were top chaps and did what they were trained to do. Just eternally grateful that the Jaguar pilot landed safely, albeit not as planned.

[soddim]

And it was quite clear that they meant no harm to the Jag mate because otherwise they would have strafed his parachute!

[granmarriott]

Originally Posted by Geehovah

Remembering said incident very well, lets not get off track.

Mr McDonnell spent many hours designing sim plugs and aq rounds that simulate precisely what you should see from an armed aircraft when its carrying only training rounds. The eminent psychologist explained this very well at the CM.

And I agree, both guys were top chaps and did what they were trained to do. Just eternally grateful that the Jaguar pilot landed safely, albeit not as planned.

I am not getting off track. Sim plugs fit neatly into the palm of the hand and Aq sidewinders look nothing like live sidewinders, so that clears that bit up, the crew should have seen the difference on the walk round. For an unarmed ac the role state would have said Aquisition S/w either stn 2 or 8 and sim plugs stn 3 and or 7, the weapon state would have been blank but this A/c had the correct load of 2 sw on each i/b pylon and sparrows on 3,4,6 and 7 and a gun with 1000 rounds entered, so either the pilot was distracted when he signed the book or careless or more likely simply forgetful when actually in the air. It was implied that the whole accident wouldn't have happened had the plumbers put a piece of tape over the master arm switch as they should have done. HOGWASH it became SOP to put tape over master arm switches only after the Jag was shot down because it was patently obvious aircrew had the attention span of goldfish and couldn't remember seeing big pointy things hanging underneath their aeroplane and so needed reminding every 15 seconds or so. Once it became SOP I can never recall a single instance of the tape ever being omitted whether on excercise, QRA or any other occasion the plane was armed.

I have no doubt that the pilot involved in this unfortunate accident was a top bloke but it seems unfair to shift a share of his blame onto the guys who armed the aircraft when they were not at fault in the first place.

[granmarriott]

Originally Posted by soddim

And it was quite clear that they meant no harm to the Jag mate because otherwise they would have strafed his parachute!

I thank you for interjecting the required shot of humour.

this is one event which really rubbed a lot of plumbers up the wrong way at the time. There was always going to be a certain amount of blame shifting after an incident like that and we seemed to cop an inordinately unfair amount considering all our bits worked and the guys on the ground did evrything as per. After all the missile did growl, it did go whoosh and the Jag jockey will vouch for it going bang.

[Geehovah]

I'll rephrase my remark

Mr McDonnell spent many hours designing sim plugs and aq rounds that simulate precisely what you should see in the cockpit whether armed or carrying only training rounds.

There could be no blame attached to the troops loading the missiles. And we all know how procedures changed after the event.

Have to correct you on the bodge tape. It was SOP to tape the master arm from Day 1 when we put the FGR2 on Q.

Out

[Dundiggin']

Wonderful stuff..............keep it coming.....!!

These apocryphal tales and memories are fantastic..........
I have one.....

I arrived at MPA Officers Mess 'fresh' from the Tristar to grab a stiffner prior to settling down to my first tour in MPA on the 78Sqn Wokkas. Next to me at the bar drinking was a guy on his own. I said
'Hello mate - I'm blah who are you?'
'I'm Kenny Ev@@@@t he answered.
'You been here long?'
'No not too long' he replied.
'What do you do around the bazaars cos you're not the comedian'
'No I'm a Phantom driver on 23 Sqn'
'When you due back then?'
'Today on the Tristar - the barstards are short touring me'.
'Why's that then?'
'Well they didn't like the low flypast I made at Saunders cos when I landed back here I was still wearing the HF aerial from the house!'

'That's why the flag flies when Seniors are visiting the house!!'

Well I was 'kin impressed with that and there proceeded two months of unmerciful ribbing and p@ss taking of the 23 Sqn attempts at low flying during 'Firey Crosses'. This led to lots of low-ish wazzes of the 78Sqn hangar, leading to a magnificent inter-Sqn p@ssing contest, with lots of 'Wokka 23 re-joins' which hugely improved moral and gave everyone (including the blunties) a reason to live!!

Who could ever forget (esp 23 Sqn!) the dousing of the BBQ by Wokka firebucket!!

I bet the 23 Sqn exponents reading this still haven't fathomed how the Britania birds preferred occasionally to visit our 'Big Choppers' as opposed to their Phantoms when they arrived wide-eyed and soon-to-be legless at MPA........that's definitely need-to-know!!!!!

[granmarriott]

Originally Posted by Geehovah

I'll rephrase my remark


Have to correct you on the bodge tape. It was SOP to tape the master arm from Day 1 when we put the FGR2 on Q.

Out

I presume that must have been a local SOP in that case, certainly not the situation at Wattisham until after the jag incident. We did use A/c armed notices in the side of the cockpit prior to the tape instruction but obviously these were removed on Q as soon as the a/c was accepted. I remember well the look of amazement on our chief's face when he was told that in future master arms were to be taped as part of the load.

From the plumbers perspective the bodge tape was always regarded as a bit of flim flam used to excuse the jag incident, . It was never accepted that the lack of tape contributed to the incident, what else were we to believe when taping the MA was not included on an OTR?and I still find it incredible that the jocky "forgot" he was flying an armed A/C, after all it was a fairly major slip of the mind!

[BEagle]

SOPs at that time varied between squadrons at pre-grunt Wattisahm. On the superior squadron, 56(F) we were always meticulous with our procedures....

Not so the 'Crows'. Taxying in one night, I once saw one of their jets get airborne with sheets of flame coming out of the back end. Not just a/b, but something more. The crew staggered round the pattern and made a single engine landing. The cause? The alert state had changed from RS-something to RS-something else and the crew hadn't bothered to go out and recheck the jet. So when the hooter went they rushed off with the intake blanks still in. One was partially ingested, the other lodged in the intake duct.....

Another time I stood 'Q' for them during a handover, went out to the jet and was appalled to find all the pins and blanks still in despite the mandatory Q RS state. So declined to accept the thing until it was properly cocked. Much grumbling from the Crows' JEngO, but they finally sorted it after the DFC threatened to ring Neat MC and take them off state......

Wanquerres!

[granmarriott]

Originally Posted by BEagle

SOPs at that time varied between squadrons at pre-grunt Wattisahm. On the superior squadron, 56(F) we were always meticulous with our procedures....

Wanquerres!

I remember the singeing chickens slightly differently being of the Red Eagle persuasion myself. Always regretting showing their QWI how to drop centre lines in deci after he somehow managed to "help" his groundcrew by waiting till on was refuelled before he broke it

[soddim]

This might be an opportune moment to reflect on the real cause of the shooting down of the Jaguar because the correct remedy has yet to be found. It is a very simple safety precaution that is inbred in those who regularly use live weapons that one never points them except at those targets one intends to do harm to.

Now the AD role has for decades blessed the act of contravening that basic rule by dictating to aircrew that they make all switches live in training and achieve a kill solution using the trigger to confirm a shot within parameters so it is surprising that not more inadvertent ‘kills’ have been achieved.

The main reason for the scarcity of accidental ‘kills’ is that air defenders do not normally train with live weapons aboard but, on occasions like Gulf War 1, they did so for an extended period. The difference then was that all training in theatre was conducted with live weapons and the crews remained aware.

The best remedy is to teach crews that they never select a weapon together with all the arming switches and press the trigger/bomb release unless they mean harm. For training purposes a better alternative than that currently used must be found that will still enable evaluation of the correct procedures.

[NoseGunner]

Soddim - I disagree.

[granmarriott]

Originally Posted by soddim

This might be an opportune moment to reflect on the real cause of the shooting down of the Jaguar because the correct remedy has yet to be found. It is a very simple safety precaution that is inbred in those who regularly use live weapons that one never points them except at those targets one intends to do harm to.

quite right!! As you say first rule of any live weapon handling. I know I have probably come across as over critical of the aircrew in my recent posts but having had that simple drummed into me from in my case the age of 11 I find it incredible that the pilot and to a lesser degree, much lesser degree in fact the nav forgt it was a live weapon they were pointing.

As to how to avoid his happening again, you won't while ever live weapons are carried on training flights, well at least not with 100% certainty.

I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers but blaming the absence of that little bit of sticky tape has ruffled a lot of armourers feathers for a long time.

It is a pity that if as everyone says the guy who fired the shot is a good guy he will be remembered for that one misake rather than something good. All I can say is that I am glad I didn't drop a goolie as monumental as that, but if I had I am sure I would have tried to wiggle a little bit.

[clicker]

Loved the F4, wish I had seen more of them "in anger" as I didnt get into the "sydney superspotter" mode of visiting ranges and more interesting places for piccies until after they left service.

Best ones I saw were the Alcock and Brown, the all black 111 Sqdn a/c and the blue a/c, which I think were both used by 92 and 74 sqdns.

[johnfairr]

Knucklehead

Knucklehead, check your PMs

jf

[Sadbloke]

Dundiggin

Kenny & POD certainly received a huge wiggin - Mark Hanna had waxed the same gaff but avided washing line - fantastic photos - Only bit of an F4 you can see above the one storey gaff is the RWR aerial atop the fin! Mark - U are the Garcon - RIP!

[OCCWMF]

Oi!

Soddim - Post #23

Actually - There is one shiny operational sqn at Coningsby. It is definitely not a 'phoon sqn (and the Q birds are detached from elsewhere)

[soddim]

You have to look at the date of that post, OCCWMF.

However, it is good to see 6 back and Coningsby reverberating once more with the sound of freedom.