F4 Phantom
Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
Originally Posted by Washington_Irving
Would this be the same show on Discovery Wings that said the F4 had "J79 Spey" engines?
One of the chaps that made such comments was a civilian lecturer at RMAS. I'll leave it up to the rest of you to judge his level of expertise on this particular matter.
One of the chaps that made such comments was a civilian lecturer at RMAS. I'll leave it up to the rest of you to judge his level of expertise on this particular matter.
Check the specs on the F4M or fgr.2 made for the royal navy with spey's they later accepted delivery of F4E/J's? with J79's. who's the expert now?
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Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
Rigpiggy - I think the point he was trying to make is that it was quoted "J79 Spey" as if it were one type of engine rather than two different ones.
Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
Moreover, the FAA never operated any other F-4 model than the F-4K with RR Spey engines as the Phantom FG1. These were based on the F-4J but were substantially modified to operate from the RN's smaller carriers. Later the aircraft were transferred to the RAF. The RAF operated the F-4M version as the Phantom FGR2 which also had Spey engines, although the preference had been for J79s. However, politics dictated that the '50/50' Phantom should have RR Speys.
Later, to meet the NATO commitment, the RAF acquired 15 ex-USN F-4J models from desert storage. These were flown back to the UK in batches from North Island, refuelling from the then new VC10K2s from Miramar on Operation Tiger Trail in 1983-4. In UK service, these were flown by 74 Sqn from RAF Wattisham as the F-4J(UK), not as spotter magazines would have it, as the Phantom F3. They were retired in 1991; 74 then operated the FGR2 until it was disbanded.
The Spey produced more thrust than the J79 at low level, but the F-4M/K were draggier than all other Phantoms due to their bigger intakes. Thus the UK operated the most powerful, most expensive, heaviest and slowest versions of the jet.
Wattisham was a tad short for the J79 engined aircraft with 8 missiles, hence the F-4J(UK)s were usually flown in Bravo fit with a single centreline tank rather than in Charlie fit with wing mounted Sargent Fletcher tanks.
Later, to meet the NATO commitment, the RAF acquired 15 ex-USN F-4J models from desert storage. These were flown back to the UK in batches from North Island, refuelling from the then new VC10K2s from Miramar on Operation Tiger Trail in 1983-4. In UK service, these were flown by 74 Sqn from RAF Wattisham as the F-4J(UK), not as spotter magazines would have it, as the Phantom F3. They were retired in 1991; 74 then operated the FGR2 until it was disbanded.
The Spey produced more thrust than the J79 at low level, but the F-4M/K were draggier than all other Phantoms due to their bigger intakes. Thus the UK operated the most powerful, most expensive, heaviest and slowest versions of the jet.
Wattisham was a tad short for the J79 engined aircraft with 8 missiles, hence the F-4J(UK)s were usually flown in Bravo fit with a single centreline tank rather than in Charlie fit with wing mounted Sargent Fletcher tanks.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
Confused the tankers on Q at first when the Js arrived and they didn´t have to descend for the join..... 
Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
74 were excellent prodders! Back in those days, AAR slots were 30 min. On one of my early VC10K trips, 2 x gleaming 74 Sqn Bravo fit F-4Js (Stu P plus another) turned up bang on time, joined, went astern, made contact straightaway, sucked their gas until full, disconnected, went to echelon and left - all in about 5 minutes. "Hmm", we all thought "what do we do for the next 25 minutes!"
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
Biggest problem, as they were ex-USN, was the air start. Every time they diverted the had to hitch up a cart and drive it across the country to get them going again. They did like their US flying kit though. 
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Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
I can testify to the utter delight of getting it 'right' in the Big Beautiful Beast = an immensly delightful and rewarding 'bus' to drive (really told you where you had screwed it up though). Flew all the AD varients the RAF had and loved em all. Especially the J.
Some of the American flying kit was great - mainly the helmet that fitted, didn't weigh a ton and was painted in a colour scheme a/r by the owner. USAF flying suits and the 'illegaly black fin' modification were also excellent for pi##ing-off senior officers and mates with a sense-of-humour-deficit . The starter issue was good for long landaway excuses to nice places. Never was too keen on the origional life preserver and joke-dingy though!
The Helpful Stacker - Me too bruv.
Some of the American flying kit was great - mainly the helmet that fitted, didn't weigh a ton and was painted in a colour scheme a/r by the owner. USAF flying suits and the 'illegaly black fin' modification were also excellent for pi##ing-off senior officers and mates with a sense-of-humour-deficit . The starter issue was good for long landaway excuses to nice places. Never was too keen on the origional life preserver and joke-dingy though!
The Helpful Stacker - Me too bruv.
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Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
Originally Posted by rigpiggy
Check the specs on the F4M or fgr.2 made for the royal navy with spey's they later accepted delivery of F4E/J's? with J79's. who's the expert now?
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Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
THS,
Sorry to rub your nose in it, but was lucky enough to get a backseat trip in a 74 Sqn F4J at the back end of 86. I was a sqn ops 'shiney' and was given the trip on leaving the sqn. Sqn Ldr John Sims/Simms was the pilot and the trip was the best memory I have of the RAF - bar none! Told by the auth on walking to the jet 'no air combat with a pax on board'. 20 mins later we made an rv with another F4J that just happened to be out over the North Sea on an air test! For the next 10-15 mins did not know my a... from my elbow! Still, in between sessions in the sick back, it was bloody fantastic!
Did not think too much of Wattisham at the time, but being on 74 more than made up for it. Great days and great people to work for. Dick Northcote, Cliff Spink, T+9 the list goes on and on.
For me, the F4 was 'the' jet to get a trip in, but if I won the lottery, I would off down to sunny SA to book a trip on the banana jet at Thunder City!
WJMcP
Sorry to rub your nose in it, but was lucky enough to get a backseat trip in a 74 Sqn F4J at the back end of 86. I was a sqn ops 'shiney' and was given the trip on leaving the sqn. Sqn Ldr John Sims/Simms was the pilot and the trip was the best memory I have of the RAF - bar none! Told by the auth on walking to the jet 'no air combat with a pax on board'. 20 mins later we made an rv with another F4J that just happened to be out over the North Sea on an air test! For the next 10-15 mins did not know my a... from my elbow! Still, in between sessions in the sick back, it was bloody fantastic!
Did not think too much of Wattisham at the time, but being on 74 more than made up for it. Great days and great people to work for. Dick Northcote, Cliff Spink, T+9 the list goes on and on.
For me, the F4 was 'the' jet to get a trip in, but if I won the lottery, I would off down to sunny SA to book a trip on the banana jet at Thunder City!
WJMcP
Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
As I was getting airborne at WTM once on a Maxeval in a FGR2, 2 of the then-new Tornados went past simulating a 'recce overflight' by Fencers. Keep heaters in, horns out, over to Stud 4 and ordered to 'engage'. Suprised at that, due to exercise alert state in force. But no matter, Sue was very positive and relayed the instructions carefully. Wheels up, flap up, outboard on the tanks, coolant on, tone as required, CW on, interlocks out, Mx to SW, master Arm on.... There are the buggers! Fox 2...and again...and err, oops, that'll be 600 KIAS at 250 ft over that village!
I was a cr@p F4 driver, as Impiger will probably agree. But that was SUCH fun. As was chasing a German F-104 over Stowmarket in full A/B, rotting up the Eder Dam on the 40th anniversary of the Dambusters Raid, getting 52% on a strafe trip before bouncing my Flt Cdr on his tac check.....
I was a cr@p F4 driver, as Impiger will probably agree. But that was SUCH fun. As was chasing a German F-104 over Stowmarket in full A/B, rotting up the Eder Dam on the 40th anniversary of the Dambusters Raid, getting 52% on a strafe trip before bouncing my Flt Cdr on his tac check.....
Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
Not good enough for the RAF's high standards, even though I did make Operational status.
Which meant having 20 years on the VC10 instead - and intercepting in comfort:
Ho hum.... As for the chap to whom you refer, at least I never hit another aircraft!
Which meant having 20 years on the VC10 instead - and intercepting in comfort:
Ho hum.... As for the chap to whom you refer, at least I never hit another aircraft!
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Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
Must have been the paint job on the Lizard, Beags, that makes it look a little closer than the half mile separation we were allowed. Dare I say that we we often out there alone as the F4 had gone home U/S.
Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
No - it's the Lizard's paint job and the optical effect of the zoom lens....
Who was I to criticise the captain's assessment? The late Greg McK. Also an ex-F4 pilot.
How do you assess 1/2 mile without either A/A TACAN (not carried by Bears) or with something as poor as the E190 radar?
Who was I to criticise the captain's assessment? The late Greg McK. Also an ex-F4 pilot.
How do you assess 1/2 mile without either A/A TACAN (not carried by Bears) or with something as poor as the E190 radar?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
What did they work out the tail-fuselage separation must have been after the Ruskies complained when the tanker closed and got the door number...........
Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
As an ex-rigger with time at Coningsby ('68 - '70) then Brueggen (couldn't find the code for an umlaut), first on ASF then 14 Sqn, I remember the FGR2 with fondness. I also remember a Brueggen Family's Day when the Sqn display crew did their thing along the flight line and then disappeared. Thinking that was it, the crowd of spouses and ankle biters in front of the hangar relaxed........only for the Phantom to appear from behind, drop down in front of them and engage full reheat. Cue lots of screams, shrieks and tears. 
The anoraks amongst you might like to try http://www.thephantomshrine.co.uk/
The anoraks amongst you might like to try http://www.thephantomshrine.co.uk/
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Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
Gorgeous aircraft, as many people have already said, it really did look "meaner than a bag of mean things"
Sadly it was before my time, but it was definately one of the major influences in my choice of career, and I can still remember the A2 sized poster on my bedroom wall.
Aaaaahh, Memories
Sadly it was before my time, but it was definately one of the major influences in my choice of career, and I can still remember the A2 sized poster on my bedroom wall.
Aaaaahh, Memories
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Re: F4 Phantom - Flying Bus???
Now... please forgive me for asking this.... I dont think I've ever been quite so spotterish... 
but...
What were the differences between the FG1 and the FGR2?? Anything significant? Anything obviously physically different? Were they both carrier capable?
but...What were the differences between the FG1 and the FGR2?? Anything significant? Anything obviously physically different? Were they both carrier capable?