The other E.E. classic, the Canberra. (Merged 23rd July '04)
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The other E.E. classic, the Canberra.
Would anyone who has flown, flown in, worked with, or on, or w.h.y. the English Electric Canberra, in all of its derivative forms, care to share some stories of their experiences?
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In days of old when the RAF was bold
and Canberras ruled the skies. . . .
In its heyday, there were 62 Canberra squadrons in the RAF, and there still is one out there in the wilds of East Anglia. The Aussies had them (grew their own even), the US (home grown), Indian Air Force, South African, Rhodesia, several South American countries, the French, Germans, Swedes . . . Canberras were everywhere, and record breakers to boot!
You'd think that with all that history and all those thousands who flew them or kept them flying, the venerable Queen of the Skies would be ripe for memories. . . but it's just not a sexy jet!
I for one would love to hear of the experiences of others flying or working the Canberra. Hope it happens.
and Canberras ruled the skies. . . .
In its heyday, there were 62 Canberra squadrons in the RAF, and there still is one out there in the wilds of East Anglia. The Aussies had them (grew their own even), the US (home grown), Indian Air Force, South African, Rhodesia, several South American countries, the French, Germans, Swedes . . . Canberras were everywhere, and record breakers to boot!
You'd think that with all that history and all those thousands who flew them or kept them flying, the venerable Queen of the Skies would be ripe for memories. . . but it's just not a sexy jet!
I for one would love to hear of the experiences of others flying or working the Canberra. Hope it happens.
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Canberra
Pretty it might be, but assymetric it is a killer.
I lived near Huntingdon arriving just after one had spiraled into a residential estate. Brand new in the RAF and told where not to be seen for fear of a good kicking. Bit like NI really!
Witnessed at first hand a similar incident at Stornoway in`79 were an engine failure on approach at very low level turned the a/c around lots of degrees for a subsequent `landing` on the grass. Missed the ILS by less then 15` and the only a/c damage was sustained when she turned onto the hard taxiway after leaving the soft grass.
I believe that nobody has ever sucesfully ejected from the front seat of a PR9.
Against that, she is a flying museum piece with immense grace, and has served the UK aviation industry proud. To have a vital war role this far down the road is incredible.
My fav FWIW is the BI(8) slightly smaller then the PR9 of similar shape with a mean looking gun pack and sunshine to boot. When the UK Air Force was indeed `Royal`.
I lived near Huntingdon arriving just after one had spiraled into a residential estate. Brand new in the RAF and told where not to be seen for fear of a good kicking. Bit like NI really!
Witnessed at first hand a similar incident at Stornoway in`79 were an engine failure on approach at very low level turned the a/c around lots of degrees for a subsequent `landing` on the grass. Missed the ILS by less then 15` and the only a/c damage was sustained when she turned onto the hard taxiway after leaving the soft grass.
I believe that nobody has ever sucesfully ejected from the front seat of a PR9.
Against that, she is a flying museum piece with immense grace, and has served the UK aviation industry proud. To have a vital war role this far down the road is incredible.
My fav FWIW is the BI(8) slightly smaller then the PR9 of similar shape with a mean looking gun pack and sunshine to boot. When the UK Air Force was indeed `Royal`.
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Tiger Mate,
It's not a "killer" assymetric, if it's flown properly.
A Chilean nav ejected successfully from a PR9.
There is an example of almost every type of current RAF aircraft in a museum somewhere.
Reichman
It's not a "killer" assymetric, if it's flown properly.
A Chilean nav ejected successfully from a PR9.
There is an example of almost every type of current RAF aircraft in a museum somewhere.
Reichman
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In a book
Old but not old enough to have been part of the 62 Sqn era. However, there is some good tales of very early test and display flying by Roland Beaumont in his book "Phoenix into Ashes" not that easy to get hold of but a great tale of the British Aircraft industry actually being a world beater (so sad we lost it) and selling the aircraft under license to the spams after competing in a fly off against U.S competitiuon...My how things have changed.
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Reichman
It certainly was not much fun to fly assymetrically at low speed, and I think that stats show that Canberras lost during practice assymetric approaches outnumber Canberras lost during real assymetric approaches by a factor of about 10.
It certainly was not much fun to fly assymetrically at low speed, and I think that stats show that Canberras lost during practice assymetric approaches outnumber Canberras lost during real assymetric approaches by a factor of about 10.
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Yep , got lots of stories, memories good and bad, plus a few hours on the queen of the skies twixt '66 and '89.
However,for now, suggest a look at the link below.
http://www.bywat.co.uk/canframes.html
Keep smiling.
However,for now, suggest a look at the link below.
http://www.bywat.co.uk/canframes.html
Keep smiling.
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Roghead
The link you posted is a bit slow at the moment, my ISP is having problems with upgrading their kit.
By the way, I welcome any and all visitors to the Canberra Tribute site but using Roghead's link means you don't go in by the front door so to speak. Please edit the link and leave off the "/canframes.html" bit, thanks. (Or just click on the www button above this post)
Tiger_mate
Good to hear you like the B(I)8, it was a sleek looking Canberra and, like you, my favourite - no nav bang-seat though.
If you get into the Canberra Tribute Web Site, there are six galleries of pictures of B(I)8s, I think you'll enjoy browsing them.
Reichman
Only two complete B(I)8s are left, one in the Aviation Museum at Hermeskeil, (Germany), the other in Christchurch, NZ. But only a one cockpit section and a burnt-out hulk in the UK!
Don't think there are any T.22s either.
The link you posted is a bit slow at the moment, my ISP is having problems with upgrading their kit.
By the way, I welcome any and all visitors to the Canberra Tribute site but using Roghead's link means you don't go in by the front door so to speak. Please edit the link and leave off the "/canframes.html" bit, thanks. (Or just click on the www button above this post)
Tiger_mate
Good to hear you like the B(I)8, it was a sleek looking Canberra and, like you, my favourite - no nav bang-seat though.
If you get into the Canberra Tribute Web Site, there are six galleries of pictures of B(I)8s, I think you'll enjoy browsing them.
Reichman
Only two complete B(I)8s are left, one in the Aviation Museum at Hermeskeil, (Germany), the other in Christchurch, NZ. But only a one cockpit section and a burnt-out hulk in the UK!
Don't think there are any T.22s either.
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Zoom,
No aircraft is fun to fly asymmetrically (note correct spelling) at low speed. As for practice asymmetric losses: I think you'll find that's the case in any aviation exercise eg spinning, PFL. The meteor didn't fare much better when it was introduced (it isn't much fun to fly asymmetrically at low speed either).
Beeayeate,
Best you take a trip to Newark Air Museum, they have a lovely gloss black b(I)8 there which still has the spray bar fitted for icing trials, and a PR7, and a PR9 cockpit, and another one which type I can't remember.
PR9 still the best looking - even if it's a crap colour.
Reichman
No aircraft is fun to fly asymmetrically (note correct spelling) at low speed. As for practice asymmetric losses: I think you'll find that's the case in any aviation exercise eg spinning, PFL. The meteor didn't fare much better when it was introduced (it isn't much fun to fly asymmetrically at low speed either).
Beeayeate,
Best you take a trip to Newark Air Museum, they have a lovely gloss black b(I)8 there which still has the spray bar fitted for icing trials, and a PR7, and a PR9 cockpit, and another one which type I can't remember.
PR9 still the best looking - even if it's a crap colour.
Reichman
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Reichman
Best you take a trip to Newark Air Museum, they have a lovely gloss black b(I)8 there
Yes, Newark, know it well, the one with the "Playboy" bunny on it. You mean WV787, a B(I)8 Mod airframe, but it never flew with the RAF - trials only - and it sports that awful T.22-type "Bucaneer" nose.
BTW, Newark Museum probably has more Canberras than any other museum. . .
WV787, B(I)8 Mod
PR.7, WH791
T.19, WH904
XH177, PR.9 (nose only)
WH863, T.17 (nose only)
You will find pics and potted histories of each of these on the Canberra Tribute Site, Survivors pages.
Best you take a trip to Newark Air Museum, they have a lovely gloss black b(I)8 there
Yes, Newark, know it well, the one with the "Playboy" bunny on it. You mean WV787, a B(I)8 Mod airframe, but it never flew with the RAF - trials only - and it sports that awful T.22-type "Bucaneer" nose.
BTW, Newark Museum probably has more Canberras than any other museum. . .
WV787, B(I)8 Mod
PR.7, WH791
T.19, WH904
XH177, PR.9 (nose only)
WH863, T.17 (nose only)
You will find pics and potted histories of each of these on the Canberra Tribute Site, Survivors pages.
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Beeayeate- sorry mate, pinched your site(badly it seems). Probably got it from your profile in the first place.However, it's a great place to start for anyone interested in the Canberra.
Assuming this thread holds up, and that's down to you lot out there,my first (of maybe a few)story concerns the B15 of 45 Sqn RAF Tengah 1st Feb 1968.My log book entry says "Low Level night battle cross country,Dusk simulated Co-ord strike,Med level return (no wheels landing)" 55 mins day, 1:45 night.
Four ship sets off for the Sqn FSO's nightmare, a dusk strike- lots of birds at that time of night in Malaya- which we carry out without the smell of a swallowed duck. However the air brakes will not retract and the oil pressure doesn't look too good.Inspection confirms a hydraulic leak and so we go home, airbrakes and all.Tengah has an outside film show in the Mess, which overlooks the runway and as the news spreads the crowd thickens.Meanwhile the team of experts assemble in the tower and we have successfully pumped all the hydraulics out of the
a/c with that super lever by the pilots bang seat.
So committed to a flapless, wheels up night landing with airbrakes and having spent 60 mins burning off fuel the experts decide to send us to Changi to land on a foam strip."It'll take 30 mins to lay" they say-"what's your endurance?" "20 mins!" " Oh, best you land here then" Good decision we think. "Don't forget the hatch" they advise. We had already tossed for that and I won which meant that my co-nav had the honour.These things had a habit of sending the explosive bolts all over the place and I wanted to protect the delicate parts of my body and not stretch to fire the switch.Anyway, to cut a long story short, we got rid or the roof at the back and flew the GT Open top B15 on to the smoothest and best of landings Geordie had done in months.We were told that it was spectacular with the flame ball 2 aircraft lengths behind us as we slid along the runway.The aircraft was cat 3, there were no injuries, and nobody got even a snap shot of the incident.My co-nav was charged with willful damage and loss or HM property - one verey pistol attached to the frangible hatch- now in the China Sea- and my wife wouldn't believe that it happened-"you just got piss*d again and came home late.
Happy days .... I think.
Assuming this thread holds up, and that's down to you lot out there,my first (of maybe a few)story concerns the B15 of 45 Sqn RAF Tengah 1st Feb 1968.My log book entry says "Low Level night battle cross country,Dusk simulated Co-ord strike,Med level return (no wheels landing)" 55 mins day, 1:45 night.
Four ship sets off for the Sqn FSO's nightmare, a dusk strike- lots of birds at that time of night in Malaya- which we carry out without the smell of a swallowed duck. However the air brakes will not retract and the oil pressure doesn't look too good.Inspection confirms a hydraulic leak and so we go home, airbrakes and all.Tengah has an outside film show in the Mess, which overlooks the runway and as the news spreads the crowd thickens.Meanwhile the team of experts assemble in the tower and we have successfully pumped all the hydraulics out of the
a/c with that super lever by the pilots bang seat.
So committed to a flapless, wheels up night landing with airbrakes and having spent 60 mins burning off fuel the experts decide to send us to Changi to land on a foam strip."It'll take 30 mins to lay" they say-"what's your endurance?" "20 mins!" " Oh, best you land here then" Good decision we think. "Don't forget the hatch" they advise. We had already tossed for that and I won which meant that my co-nav had the honour.These things had a habit of sending the explosive bolts all over the place and I wanted to protect the delicate parts of my body and not stretch to fire the switch.Anyway, to cut a long story short, we got rid or the roof at the back and flew the GT Open top B15 on to the smoothest and best of landings Geordie had done in months.We were told that it was spectacular with the flame ball 2 aircraft lengths behind us as we slid along the runway.The aircraft was cat 3, there were no injuries, and nobody got even a snap shot of the incident.My co-nav was charged with willful damage and loss or HM property - one verey pistol attached to the frangible hatch- now in the China Sea- and my wife wouldn't believe that it happened-"you just got piss*d again and came home late.
Happy days .... I think.
Tiger_mate
I lived in Huntingdon at the time the PR9 crashed and we fitters were led to believe that the crew unsuccessfully attempted to eject after trying to fly the aircraft clear of densely populated housing. We never had any problems with our neighbours, they all expressed their sorrow at the loss of our squadron mates.
As for assymetric flying, I can remember two instances of engine loss on take off and both times the aircraft were landed safely. Admittedly the pilot's language whilst unstrapping would make a Matelot wince! I understand that it was a right pig to fly on one engine but at least the PR9 had a powered rudder.
PR9 Ejections:
Could anybody give a history of ejections from the PR9 both successful and unsuccessful. There is no need to give aircraft numbers or names as we do not want to reopen painful memories.
CC
I lived in Huntingdon at the time the PR9 crashed and we fitters were led to believe that the crew unsuccessfully attempted to eject after trying to fly the aircraft clear of densely populated housing. We never had any problems with our neighbours, they all expressed their sorrow at the loss of our squadron mates.
As for assymetric flying, I can remember two instances of engine loss on take off and both times the aircraft were landed safely. Admittedly the pilot's language whilst unstrapping would make a Matelot wince! I understand that it was a right pig to fly on one engine but at least the PR9 had a powered rudder.
PR9 Ejections:
Could anybody give a history of ejections from the PR9 both successful and unsuccessful. There is no need to give aircraft numbers or names as we do not want to reopen painful memories.
CC
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The first PR9 ejection was from the first PR9. One of the leading edge root attachments to the fuselage failed when being tested off the coast of Southport. The pilot managed to eject and was recovered unhurt. Sadly, the observer did not manage to eject and was killed.
A Chilean air force pilot was "ejected" from his PR9 after encountering clear air turbulence. The ejection seat hadn't been correctly installed after servicing. The result was that it went up the rail and then fired. The nav spent several minutes as captain trying in vain to ascertain from the pilot what the loud bang followed by sound of rushing air was. On seeing the Andes coming up rather rapidly, and no word from the pilot, he ejected. Both were recovered safely.
Reichman
A Chilean air force pilot was "ejected" from his PR9 after encountering clear air turbulence. The ejection seat hadn't been correctly installed after servicing. The result was that it went up the rail and then fired. The nav spent several minutes as captain trying in vain to ascertain from the pilot what the loud bang followed by sound of rushing air was. On seeing the Andes coming up rather rapidly, and no word from the pilot, he ejected. Both were recovered safely.
Reichman
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The first PR9 ejection was from the first PR9.
XH129 crashed as you say (pilot was called Knight - JohnF will have the report about his person). Knight ejected but there was no observer's ejection seat in that aircraft, it had a B(I)8 type nose (nose cone glazing). The observer was supposed to get out the same way B(I)8 navs did, through the entrance door.
That incident caused a series of mods by Short Bros which included an ejector seat for the nav. These mods were incorporated from the eighth airframe, XH136, onwards and retro-fitted to 130-135.
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Canberra Gun Pack
Hey - Tiger Mate
Didn't know that gun packs went into production.
Flew the prototype 4 x 20mm weapon bay gun pack on a BI(6) at Boscombe Down in the late 50s. Project officer there was a female and she flew with me the first time we managed to fire off full magazines. Target was Lyme Bay!
Can't remember how many rounds in the pack or whether there was a gunsight. The pack was a fairly neat fit into a cut out of front of weapon bay doors.
Think it was really meant for BI(8)s.
Another exciting time in a Canberra was a hang up of a 2000 pnd live target marker which decided to come loose just after closing doors. Felt the thump on the doors.
Managed to get rid of the target marker without it coming into the cockpit or going out the back by VERY smooth flying around a radar giuded race track and opening the doors in close vicinity to desired release point. Part of trial was to determine trajectory using a pencil beam radar which followed the marker down to its parachute opening.
Didn't know that gun packs went into production.
Flew the prototype 4 x 20mm weapon bay gun pack on a BI(6) at Boscombe Down in the late 50s. Project officer there was a female and she flew with me the first time we managed to fire off full magazines. Target was Lyme Bay!
Can't remember how many rounds in the pack or whether there was a gunsight. The pack was a fairly neat fit into a cut out of front of weapon bay doors.
Think it was really meant for BI(8)s.
Another exciting time in a Canberra was a hang up of a 2000 pnd live target marker which decided to come loose just after closing doors. Felt the thump on the doors.
Managed to get rid of the target marker without it coming into the cockpit or going out the back by VERY smooth flying around a radar giuded race track and opening the doors in close vicinity to desired release point. Part of trial was to determine trajectory using a pencil beam radar which followed the marker down to its parachute opening.
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Milt
The B(I)6 was only used by 213 Sqn, no other, the remaining Strike Sqns were equipped with B(I)8s - same gunpack though.
The gunpacks held around 500 rounds per gun which had to be fired in 3 second bursts with a min of 10 sec interval between bursts. Firing could be carried out at any speed, but not with the nose undercarriage down -
Fitting the gunpack (8s or 6s) meant changing the bomb doors. The pack was fitted in the rear of the bomb bay and the special doors had cut-outs at the rear to close snugly around the fitted pack.
These doors were bu@@ers to fit, especially if the kite had any significant fuel in No 3 Tank (airframe droop I believe). Many times, I recall, having up to a dozen blokes all sweating and heaving in an upward curve while a rigger using a hide-faced hammer, battered the 1 inch dia pip pins into the bomb door jack and pivot links, first for one door then the other. And if No 3 Tank hadn't been de-fueled you could learn a whole new set of swear words. Following that there was all the fun and games of door closing tests using the hyd hand pump (Canberra riggers have huge right arms), getting the fit around the gunpack right, then connecting the ground hyd power pump, getting the closing/opening timings right. These doors were supposed to be interchangeable but, in practice, each was marked with the no of the aircraft it fitted best, in pairs.
The B(I)6 was only used by 213 Sqn, no other, the remaining Strike Sqns were equipped with B(I)8s - same gunpack though.
The gunpacks held around 500 rounds per gun which had to be fired in 3 second bursts with a min of 10 sec interval between bursts. Firing could be carried out at any speed, but not with the nose undercarriage down -
Fitting the gunpack (8s or 6s) meant changing the bomb doors. The pack was fitted in the rear of the bomb bay and the special doors had cut-outs at the rear to close snugly around the fitted pack.
These doors were bu@@ers to fit, especially if the kite had any significant fuel in No 3 Tank (airframe droop I believe). Many times, I recall, having up to a dozen blokes all sweating and heaving in an upward curve while a rigger using a hide-faced hammer, battered the 1 inch dia pip pins into the bomb door jack and pivot links, first for one door then the other. And if No 3 Tank hadn't been de-fueled you could learn a whole new set of swear words. Following that there was all the fun and games of door closing tests using the hyd hand pump (Canberra riggers have huge right arms), getting the fit around the gunpack right, then connecting the ground hyd power pump, getting the closing/opening timings right. These doors were supposed to be interchangeable but, in practice, each was marked with the no of the aircraft it fitted best, in pairs.
Nemesis of the Proot Dynasty
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Hi again, Beeayeate,
Are you absolutely sure that the B(I)6 wasn't used on 249, 6 and 73 squadrons (Strike Wing, Akrotiri)? I also think that 51 had some (albeit modified).
Are you absolutely sure that the B(I)6 wasn't used on 249, 6 and 73 squadrons (Strike Wing, Akrotiri)? I also think that 51 had some (albeit modified).
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PR 9 "Nav" Ejection.
I've told this here before, sorry if it's a repeat for you.
13 Sqn., Akrotiri, 1963-ish.
S.A.C Armourer returns to crewroom and says"O.K. Sarge, I've disarmed that seat." Sarge rises to his feet and wanders down to aircraft carrying spring balance, climbs onto Navs seat, hooks balance around pan handle and pulls to check force required.
Wrong aircraft.
The frangible hatch was not in position, he was naturally leaning forward as the seat went up. The Very pistol removed the side of his shoe in passing. He sort of rolled off the front of the seat and landed on the rear fuselage, on his back and slid to the ground. The seat landed between the tailplane and the wing on the other side. His name may have been Jones. I wasn,t there personally, it was a day off for me for some reason, so if someone knows better, speak up.
Mike W
13 Sqn., Akrotiri, 1963-ish.
S.A.C Armourer returns to crewroom and says"O.K. Sarge, I've disarmed that seat." Sarge rises to his feet and wanders down to aircraft carrying spring balance, climbs onto Navs seat, hooks balance around pan handle and pulls to check force required.
Wrong aircraft.
The frangible hatch was not in position, he was naturally leaning forward as the seat went up. The Very pistol removed the side of his shoe in passing. He sort of rolled off the front of the seat and landed on the rear fuselage, on his back and slid to the ground. The seat landed between the tailplane and the wing on the other side. His name may have been Jones. I wasn,t there personally, it was a day off for me for some reason, so if someone knows better, speak up.
Mike W
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The hangar at Wyton had a full size dayglo cutout of a spread-eagled bloke on the inside of the roof!
Why? Read the above; thats why!
Edit after the following post: Circa 78-79
The middle shed between VASF/207 Sqn det (Devons) and 51 (Who?) Sqn. Therefore "Hangar 2" sounds about right. Twas were the Canberra majors were done so perhaps quite apt.
Now an hours circuits in the back of a Devon was the perfect place for a little snooze
Why? Read the above; thats why!
Edit after the following post: Circa 78-79
The middle shed between VASF/207 Sqn det (Devons) and 51 (Who?) Sqn. Therefore "Hangar 2" sounds about right. Twas were the Canberra majors were done so perhaps quite apt.
Now an hours circuits in the back of a Devon was the perfect place for a little snooze
Last edited by Tiger_mate; 25th Feb 2004 at 03:19.
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Aha! I was there!
(copy and paste from ejection seat thread)
Canberra T17, RAF Wyton, 2 Hangar, Canberra Servicing Flight
I was present in 1982 (poss 1983) when a young armourer got muddled up on a seat removal and fired the thing. It gave him a glancing blow, breaking his arm and jaw on the way through the canopy, hitting the main girder in the hangar roof (Or it would have gone through the roof) I kept a bit of the smashed canopy and its still in my shed.
Loudest noise I've heard in my life - I thought the Russians were coming. I was removing the aileron centre hinge bracket and dropped all my tools on my own head. My mate Ron ducked so fast he saw the seat land through his own legs. Sgt in charge of the team was found gibbering under his desk.
Happy Days
Edited 'cos of other edits!
Unless there was another incident, my dates are right, as I left 13 (PR) Sqn when it disbanded in 1981, so I was a CSF Sheddie until May 1983 when I joined the mighty Tatty Ton. We didn't do Majors, by the way. Only up to Minor Star.
I've heard the drogue gun story but don't even know for sure if it was a Canberra. The bit I can remember is that the seat was being manually lifted up the rails, but it hadn't been made safe properly so the drogue gun fired! Ouch!
(copy and paste from ejection seat thread)
Canberra T17, RAF Wyton, 2 Hangar, Canberra Servicing Flight
I was present in 1982 (poss 1983) when a young armourer got muddled up on a seat removal and fired the thing. It gave him a glancing blow, breaking his arm and jaw on the way through the canopy, hitting the main girder in the hangar roof (Or it would have gone through the roof) I kept a bit of the smashed canopy and its still in my shed.
Loudest noise I've heard in my life - I thought the Russians were coming. I was removing the aileron centre hinge bracket and dropped all my tools on my own head. My mate Ron ducked so fast he saw the seat land through his own legs. Sgt in charge of the team was found gibbering under his desk.
Happy Days
Edited 'cos of other edits!
Unless there was another incident, my dates are right, as I left 13 (PR) Sqn when it disbanded in 1981, so I was a CSF Sheddie until May 1983 when I joined the mighty Tatty Ton. We didn't do Majors, by the way. Only up to Minor Star.
I've heard the drogue gun story but don't even know for sure if it was a Canberra. The bit I can remember is that the seat was being manually lifted up the rails, but it hadn't been made safe properly so the drogue gun fired! Ouch!
Last edited by SirPeterHardingsLovechild; 25th Feb 2004 at 04:11.