Defence: Public ignorance, the media, and cutbacks
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As an engineer I would say the standards are still high but there is no denying that experience levels have been shot to pieces recently.
The calibre of people coming in that I've seen I would say is no different to what it was ten years ago and generally of a good standard although there will always be those that make you despair.
The training they recieve is also still good. Unfortunatly it's not in depth enough but that argument has been going for a while.
The other big problem is the amount of manpower actually on the squadrons. If the work is to be done properly then you'll not get all the jets you want. If you get all the jets you want chances are not all the work has been done properly. Fact of life at the moment.
And I am talking from experience.
The calibre of people coming in that I've seen I would say is no different to what it was ten years ago and generally of a good standard although there will always be those that make you despair.
The training they recieve is also still good. Unfortunatly it's not in depth enough but that argument has been going for a while.
The other big problem is the amount of manpower actually on the squadrons. If the work is to be done properly then you'll not get all the jets you want. If you get all the jets you want chances are not all the work has been done properly. Fact of life at the moment.
And I am talking from experience.
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Poor leadership or ulterior motives?.
Please excuse me if I show my ignorance on some issues as I'm not in the military. I have had various dealings with military personel in my work and count several as good friends. From reading the various threads on this and other websites I do see some similarities with what has happened to various other government agencies in recent years including the county council that I used to work for. I left that job because of political interference, the ignorence of modern management in the public sector, their blind adherance to the political doctrine of the time and their attitude towards anyone who had the temerity to question them or show anything other than total belief in the "new" ways of working. Experience, logic and pure common sence were frowned upon and you were told that "this is old fasioned and not modern thinking at all" etc etc. 
Was I correct to assume that this was pure political indoctrination, management for managements sake? You're either with us or without us, what an approach that was. I'm not certain who is out there to give the leadership of this country the reality check that it needs without the bloody nose that it's going to get. Something has to happen to help all government agencies achieve more bang for the buck.....I hate using management terms but there you go (it is responsible for one of the best moral boosting games ever invented....bull51t-b1ng0) So much money is being wasted on talk isn't it.
I assume that many of you have been forced to attend seminas on new methods of work. To gather into little individual groups at these seminas, separated from like minded colleagues with people who support the new proposals, usually frorm the companies that have most to gain from the changes so all can appear to be acting as one. It's like having friendship forced upon you. I used to get fed up of being talked down too. At the next semina management assumes that you have rattified the "agreed ideas" from the last one when all you in fact did was to point out the pitfalls of the proposals and tried hard to find anything that would be of any use and not downright stupid. At least the management theory boxs were ticked, ie you were part of the consultation process.
The result of the charade is that building works on public buildings are still being carried out by the same contractors, good local ones that can be trusted but now there's a big fat middle man in the form of a large term contractor who knows how to exploit the system. Two thirds of the work is being done for 25% more money and the end user has no faith in the authority any more as the administration is pathetic.
I'll stop now....you must be getting bored!
All I can say is that we do support you, that logic must prevail, the ignorant, incompetant and those that are nothing but politically motivated should stand aside now to enable the professionals to do their work (that doesn't include bean-counters either!).
More people, better training using "old fasioned principles" as appropriate, new and more modern equipment in the numbers that are required.
A government that expects its' armed forces to be doing what you are doing without giving you the necessary means of doing it should not be a government at all.
(Sorry that I've gone on a bit.....my first post.)
Was I correct to assume that this was pure political indoctrination, management for managements sake? You're either with us or without us, what an approach that was. I'm not certain who is out there to give the leadership of this country the reality check that it needs without the bloody nose that it's going to get. Something has to happen to help all government agencies achieve more bang for the buck.....I hate using management terms but there you go (it is responsible for one of the best moral boosting games ever invented....bull51t-b1ng0) So much money is being wasted on talk isn't it.
I assume that many of you have been forced to attend seminas on new methods of work. To gather into little individual groups at these seminas, separated from like minded colleagues with people who support the new proposals, usually frorm the companies that have most to gain from the changes so all can appear to be acting as one. It's like having friendship forced upon you. I used to get fed up of being talked down too. At the next semina management assumes that you have rattified the "agreed ideas" from the last one when all you in fact did was to point out the pitfalls of the proposals and tried hard to find anything that would be of any use and not downright stupid. At least the management theory boxs were ticked, ie you were part of the consultation process.
The result of the charade is that building works on public buildings are still being carried out by the same contractors, good local ones that can be trusted but now there's a big fat middle man in the form of a large term contractor who knows how to exploit the system. Two thirds of the work is being done for 25% more money and the end user has no faith in the authority any more as the administration is pathetic.
I'll stop now....you must be getting bored!
All I can say is that we do support you, that logic must prevail, the ignorant, incompetant and those that are nothing but politically motivated should stand aside now to enable the professionals to do their work (that doesn't include bean-counters either!).
More people, better training using "old fasioned principles" as appropriate, new and more modern equipment in the numbers that are required.
A government that expects its' armed forces to be doing what you are doing without giving you the necessary means of doing it should not be a government at all.
(Sorry that I've gone on a bit.....my first post.)
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Quote:
All three instructors teaching pilots to fly Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft have resigned at RAF Kinloss.
Anyone know why?
I understand from a qualified and experienced source within the fleet that a mass exodus of qualified staff would come as no surprise given the shortage of adequate resources allocated to the fleet. A shortage which brings into question long term operational efficiency and safety. The existing strategy would appear not only to be driven by the government but also by RAF management which I am given to believe has a pro-fighter mentality.
Please feel free to correct me if I am way off target but I don’t think I am!
All three instructors teaching pilots to fly Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft have resigned at RAF Kinloss.
Anyone know why?
I understand from a qualified and experienced source within the fleet that a mass exodus of qualified staff would come as no surprise given the shortage of adequate resources allocated to the fleet. A shortage which brings into question long term operational efficiency and safety. The existing strategy would appear not only to be driven by the government but also by RAF management which I am given to believe has a pro-fighter mentality.
Please feel free to correct me if I am way off target but I don’t think I am!
GA, welcome to the forum and thank you for your "maiden post". I will venture to reply, as one civilian to another, because the guys and gals that you addressed have been muzzled by an MOD new think initiative that answers to the name of "DIN", who says that they don't have a sense of humour? You write with a strong sense of outrage at the way you and your colleagues have been dragooned into new and unproductive ways, and I can empathise with your feelings of frustration and powerlessness that must engender. Consider therefore a similar process inflicted from above, over the heads of and against the protests of professionals, which results in not just frustration but dangerous life threatening outcomes of insufficient, outdated and un-airworthy aircraft to meet ever increasing operational demands in a worsening scenario, to be operated and maintained by fewer and less experienced people, as those before them vote with their feet. Town Halls may be places of low morale and poor support, but they are infinitely safer than "sandy places" suffering from the same neglect!
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I agree with your comments Chugalug. County Hall did make us frustrated by their politics/antics and that's why I walked but my outrage is directed to those who are not prepared to give our forces what they need. It is indeed in a completely different league to any local authority scenario and I hope that nobody reading this believes that I'm trying to compare the two on the same terms.
I can't wait untill the next General Election campaign when "they" all come out of the woodwork to clammer for our votes and the TV camera's are about. I'd love to have a few seconds on air. They can't gag everybody!
I don't think that the name of the party matters much these days.
Maybe the other lot would support the forces more but I don't have any faith. Who knows, PR guru Cameroon must like the idea of having a fighter named after him
so he may come up with something....
Anyway, no more politics, I feel a head-ache coming on.
I can merely repeat the last three paragraphs of my maiden post and God speed to all in harms way.
I can't wait untill the next General Election campaign when "they" all come out of the woodwork to clammer for our votes and the TV camera's are about. I'd love to have a few seconds on air. They can't gag everybody!
I don't think that the name of the party matters much these days.
Maybe the other lot would support the forces more but I don't have any faith. Who knows, PR guru Cameroon must like the idea of having a fighter named after him
so he may come up with something.... Anyway, no more politics, I feel a head-ache coming on.I can merely repeat the last three paragraphs of my maiden post and God speed to all in harms way.
Never doubted your bona fides for a moment GA, merely used your post to point up the different reality of being "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" etc, and of being "On Active Service". Most of the UK population have never served, have no relatives serving or who have served, or unlike yourself don't even know anyone serving. This does not mean that they don't support our Armed Forces, but they just don't understand the diabolical state of the Services under this government. Appropriately I am watching an excellent piece on Channel Four about the TA, who draw an even shorter straw than the Regulars. Channel Four seems to be our National Broadcaster as far as the Forces are concerned, much better and more critical of the MOD than the Beeb, who seem to have renewed the love affair with Labour now that the People's PM has gone, but that's another rant!
Ah! what might lie behind that cryptic post L1A2? Thanks to DIN I can place any interpretation on it that I wish, so I'll just say cheers and stay safe to you all.
Ah! what might lie behind that cryptic post L1A2? Thanks to DIN I can place any interpretation on it that I wish, so I'll just say cheers and stay safe to you all.
Thread Starter
This is worth looking at, considering the potential threat to the UK.
JTIC briefing: LNG tanker terrorism
As the global market for liquefied natural gas (LNG) continues to expand rapidly, with ever more carriers ploughing the oceans, there is still concern that terrorists will attack LNG infrastructure. Fears that terrorists will use an LNG carrier to create an explosive vapour cloud over a city are misplaced, according to US studies, but LNG carriers still present tempting targets for publicity-seeking terrorists.
The threat from maritime terrorist attacks was demonstrated on 12 October 2000 when a small boat loaded with explosives rammed the USS Cole in Aden harbour. Two years later, the same tactic was used against the oil tanker Limburg, which was rammed several miles off the Yemeni coast. One crewman was killed and several thousand barrels of oil spilled in an attack that seemed intended to disrupt oil supplies.
Maritime aspects of the "war on terror" are seldom discussed by the media, which is why I have tried to highlight them on this thread.
JTIC briefing: LNG tanker terrorism
As the global market for liquefied natural gas (LNG) continues to expand rapidly, with ever more carriers ploughing the oceans, there is still concern that terrorists will attack LNG infrastructure. Fears that terrorists will use an LNG carrier to create an explosive vapour cloud over a city are misplaced, according to US studies, but LNG carriers still present tempting targets for publicity-seeking terrorists.
The threat from maritime terrorist attacks was demonstrated on 12 October 2000 when a small boat loaded with explosives rammed the USS Cole in Aden harbour. Two years later, the same tactic was used against the oil tanker Limburg, which was rammed several miles off the Yemeni coast. One crewman was killed and several thousand barrels of oil spilled in an attack that seemed intended to disrupt oil supplies.
Maritime aspects of the "war on terror" are seldom discussed by the media, which is why I have tried to highlight them on this thread.
Thread Starter
Following on from the above post, you may be interested in these articles from the Royal Navy website.
Keeping the Sea Lanes Open
Link now working.
Keeping the Sea Lanes Open
Link now working.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 7th Dec 2007 at 09:20.
Navy would struggle to fight a war - report
Continuing the maritime theme, but this should be of interest to all concerned with/for the current and future defence of the UK, there is a revealing article regarding the state of the Navy in today's Telegraph on-line edition. It results from a leaked report and the leak itself indicates (IMHO) how desperate the situation is. 
Link to article
Link to article
Last edited by Lyneham Lad; 2nd Dec 2007 at 09:56. Reason: Title added.
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In todays Telegraph there is a very thoughtful, well written and balanced article.
Some of the comments bear out the thoughts of the populace who are sympathetic to the 'NuLabour' fundamentals including the shameful behaviour of a Labour MP in the House of Commons (for me 'NuLabour' really have made it common). While more are more in keeping with the traditional view that we are a benifit to the country as a whole and we do our jobs but not politics.
If you get a chance read the article and the comments it is worthwhile and uplifting.
Some of the comments bear out the thoughts of the populace who are sympathetic to the 'NuLabour' fundamentals including the shameful behaviour of a Labour MP in the House of Commons (for me 'NuLabour' really have made it common). While more are more in keeping with the traditional view that we are a benifit to the country as a whole and we do our jobs but not politics.
If you get a chance read the article and the comments it is worthwhile and uplifting.
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at the end of the day the Military has very very little significance to the great british public. They will bask in the glory when they go into rapid high tempo operations but get bored when the military is tied down in ops like Iraq and Afghanistan. Its not helped by succesive governments attitudes to the forces seeing the defence of the nation as a low priority. End of cold war "no" submarine threat therefore cut Nimrod spending and spending on Navy for a peace dividend.
This government will fall when house prices do and the economey falls apart. The next govt will have to slash public spending to sort out the economic mess and so the defence budget will be cut don't hope a change of govenrment will sort out the ills of UKDF just expect more of the same.
Until the armed forces of the UK get a kicking on an operation nothing will change.
This government will fall when house prices do and the economey falls apart. The next govt will have to slash public spending to sort out the economic mess and so the defence budget will be cut don't hope a change of govenrment will sort out the ills of UKDF just expect more of the same.
Until the armed forces of the UK get a kicking on an operation nothing will change.
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regrettably, you are exactly right; except one significant point.
Not until the UK gets a kicking wll anything change. These self centred buggers will remain blind and deaf to everything until it affects them personally.
Until the armed forces of the UK get a kicking on an operation nothing will change
Thread Starter
On a maritime theme, the RN website has news of HMS Somerset's deployment.
HMS Somerset leaves her homeport of Devonport to patrol the Mediterranean including join the standing NATO force conducting Operation Active Endeavour. The force will police shipping and board selected vessels. The ships of the multi-national force also gather intelligence on merchant shipping movements to detect suspicious activity. The force underlines NATO’s commitment to combating illegal use of the sea and conduct joint exercises to improve working and understanding between different navies. The NATO operation in the Mediterranean has been happening since October 2001 and has been bolstered by non-NATO nations such as the Ukraine, Georgia or Albania.
Active Endeavour goes on day in and day out with very little publicity, like many of the vital activities of the RN and RAF.
HMS Somerset leaves her homeport of Devonport to patrol the Mediterranean including join the standing NATO force conducting Operation Active Endeavour. The force will police shipping and board selected vessels. The ships of the multi-national force also gather intelligence on merchant shipping movements to detect suspicious activity. The force underlines NATO’s commitment to combating illegal use of the sea and conduct joint exercises to improve working and understanding between different navies. The NATO operation in the Mediterranean has been happening since October 2001 and has been bolstered by non-NATO nations such as the Ukraine, Georgia or Albania.
Active Endeavour goes on day in and day out with very little publicity, like many of the vital activities of the RN and RAF.
Thread Starter
Another cut by Stealth:
Fish stocks at risk from protection patrol cuts
At a time when fish stocks are under increasing pressure, and the threat of a maritime terrorist attack in UK home waters is very real, what possible justification is there for this?
Fish stocks at risk from protection patrol cuts
At a time when fish stocks are under increasing pressure, and the threat of a maritime terrorist attack in UK home waters is very real, what possible justification is there for this?
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WEBF,
It is sad to see you continue to to swallow the Torygraph line complete with hook and sinker.
As someone who served in the FPS in the early 90s I can tell you that if you are relying on the FPS to prevent a terrorist attack on Blackpool Pleasure Beach or Brighton Pier then you are in real trouble.
It is sad to see you continue to to swallow the Torygraph line complete with hook and sinker.
As someone who served in the FPS in the early 90s I can tell you that if you are relying on the FPS to prevent a terrorist attack on Blackpool Pleasure Beach or Brighton Pier then you are in real trouble.
Last edited by BillHicksRules; 25th May 2008 at 17:53.