lightning supercruise
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jah sorry - finger trouble on the speed! You and my old man were obviously contemporary at Gutersloh - he was the last Lightning Staish there.
As for 747 climb performance, I had the pleasure of bringing the last Virgin 747-200 (RR) out of Amsterdam after a service in April last year. The ac was due for retirement very shortly thereafter, so we decided that a TOGA climb (at about 200 tonnes) would be a nice way to see the old lady out. We had to rapidly renegotiate our climb clearance a number of times on the way up. We made F210 in about 3 minutes, as I remember. Nothing to shout about in FJ terms, but good fun nonetheless!
Scroggs
As for 747 climb performance, I had the pleasure of bringing the last Virgin 747-200 (RR) out of Amsterdam after a service in April last year. The ac was due for retirement very shortly thereafter, so we decided that a TOGA climb (at about 200 tonnes) would be a nice way to see the old lady out. We had to rapidly renegotiate our climb clearance a number of times on the way up. We made F210 in about 3 minutes, as I remember. Nothing to shout about in FJ terms, but good fun nonetheless!
Scroggs
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I vaguely remember a story at the time that the Tengah rotation accident pilot was trying to put on an especially punchy t/o as he was getting a mate to film it from the ground for him to send home. Any truth in this?
Were'nt there also some pics in Air Clues ?
Were'nt there also some pics in Air Clues ?
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Gainsey
If my memory serves me correctly this t/o was filmed, but I think it was for some sort of PR effort.
Perhaps other old 74 chums out there may know more.
Or at least have a less decrepit memory than myself.
If my memory serves me correctly this t/o was filmed, but I think it was for some sort of PR effort.
Perhaps other old 74 chums out there may know more.
Or at least have a less decrepit memory than myself.
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Scroggs: yes a light 747 can certainly go! I met your father a couple of times after Gutersloh but my lasting memory of him is a the rollocking he gave to the O' Mess after a particularly torrid Oktoberfest when 19 and 92 were playing the fool and 18 sqn looked on with threatening disdain as the beer and schnapps flowed and the bratties and brotchen flew. He hadn't attended but your mother had; however it was the PMC who had complained but felt powerless to intervene. Your mother, reportedly, thoroughly enjoyed herself. By the way, I think that we flew together in Nov 79 on a strafe dual.
Gainesy/tc. I seem to remember that IFS made the 74 Sqn accident the subject of a FS film in the early 70s but changed the venue to Akrotiri. Some of the 56 Sqn pilots starred in the film; a hazy recollection but I think that a photogenic first tourist, who subsequently flew Omani Strikemasters, F4s on Ark Royal's last cruise and Jaguars, played the ill-fated pilot. The (fictional?)catalyst for the accident was a bit of banter in the bar on the previous night with a visiting fast jet mate who was told to be half-way down the runway with his camera to witness a spectacular t/o!
Gainesy/tc. I seem to remember that IFS made the 74 Sqn accident the subject of a FS film in the early 70s but changed the venue to Akrotiri. Some of the 56 Sqn pilots starred in the film; a hazy recollection but I think that a photogenic first tourist, who subsequently flew Omani Strikemasters, F4s on Ark Royal's last cruise and Jaguars, played the ill-fated pilot. The (fictional?)catalyst for the accident was a bit of banter in the bar on the previous night with a visiting fast jet mate who was told to be half-way down the runway with his camera to witness a spectacular t/o!
The 1970 74Sqn Tengah rote accident was indeed being filmed by someone the pilot (a F/L) brought in to record as (I presume) something worthwhile to keep from the tour.
The accident has been reported in Air clues and pics of the wreckage were published. According to eyewitnesses this was the fastest rote they ever saw, hence my earlier comment on 290kt, 5+G and the F6 reached 600ft before coming down again.
The accident has been reported in Air clues and pics of the wreckage were published. According to eyewitnesses this was the fastest rote they ever saw, hence my earlier comment on 290kt, 5+G and the F6 reached 600ft before coming down again.
Gentleman Aviator
jah
.... that would be the Old Harrovian photogenic first tourist, now something of an upmarket travel agent???????
.... that would be the Old Harrovian photogenic first tourist, now something of an upmarket travel agent???????
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Thanks for the replies.
I was at Akrotiri from March 1970, I don't remember many (any?)Lightning rote T/Os either by 56 or APC visitors, and that was before the Tengah crash (22 July,1970).
What did look impressive was 56's practice on a pairs T/O
of breaking left/right as the gear came up at about 30-50ft and then resuming runway hdg to cross the upwind boundary in battle formation.
Looking at the pic of the F-4 earlier in the thread prompted the thoughts of the Tengah crash. Outwith authed displays etc, I wonder how many crashes have been caused by the "Hey, watch this" syndrome. I can think of at least one (Mil, non-UK).
I was at Akrotiri from March 1970, I don't remember many (any?)Lightning rote T/Os either by 56 or APC visitors, and that was before the Tengah crash (22 July,1970).
What did look impressive was 56's practice on a pairs T/O
of breaking left/right as the gear came up at about 30-50ft and then resuming runway hdg to cross the upwind boundary in battle formation.
Looking at the pic of the F-4 earlier in the thread prompted the thoughts of the Tengah crash. Outwith authed displays etc, I wonder how many crashes have been caused by the "Hey, watch this" syndrome. I can think of at least one (Mil, non-UK).
From an earlier thread on Lightnings
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...carborough+bay
"Over the years, during the annual positioning transit of the aeros display Lightning from Binbrook to Tees-side for their air show, it had become the practice to carry out an informal aerobatic display at Scarborough en route to support some kind of activity (RAF Recruiting?) on the sea-front. In 1983, however, the hard word had gone out about such activities and all such things had to be authorised by Group. Permission was duly sought (good cause, after all, and a precedent), but it was refused. Poor Mike, who was the Lightning display pilot that year, got very angry about the refusal and argued unsuccessfully for hours on the phone to have the decision reversed, to no avail.
He took off in an angry mood, and only the Lord knows what went through Mike’s mind en-route, but descend into Scarborough Bay Mike did, and at some stage of the routine he overcooked it with the result that we all know. Even if that had not happened, Mike was headed for a lot of trouble. R.I.P. Mike Thompson, who tried to please his public at whatever cost to himself."
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...carborough+bay
"Over the years, during the annual positioning transit of the aeros display Lightning from Binbrook to Tees-side for their air show, it had become the practice to carry out an informal aerobatic display at Scarborough en route to support some kind of activity (RAF Recruiting?) on the sea-front. In 1983, however, the hard word had gone out about such activities and all such things had to be authorised by Group. Permission was duly sought (good cause, after all, and a precedent), but it was refused. Poor Mike, who was the Lightning display pilot that year, got very angry about the refusal and argued unsuccessfully for hours on the phone to have the decision reversed, to no avail.
He took off in an angry mood, and only the Lord knows what went through Mike’s mind en-route, but descend into Scarborough Bay Mike did, and at some stage of the routine he overcooked it with the result that we all know. Even if that had not happened, Mike was headed for a lot of trouble. R.I.P. Mike Thompson, who tried to please his public at whatever cost to himself."
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WUB,
Thanks for posting that link to the Scarborough accident. I knew Mike very well from his time as the Brit exchange in Canada. Spent many an hour flying and partying with Mike and never could find out exactly what happened.
RPH
Thanks for posting that link to the Scarborough accident. I knew Mike very well from his time as the Brit exchange in Canada. Spent many an hour flying and partying with Mike and never could find out exactly what happened.
RPH
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I found this short account on the Lightning Association Web site some years ago.. It does not appear to be there now but, it may be of some interest!
LIGHTNING vs CONCORDE
The Lightning that once overtook Concorde was described as "the best of the best" by Flt Lt Mike Hale at the roll-out ceremony for XR749 at Teeside Airport on September 28th 1995.
Now an instructor with 56 Sqn at Coningsby, Mike flew 80 sorties in XR749 after the aircraft was allocated to 11 Squadron at Binbrook. He has a particular affection for the aircraft: "The Lightning was an exceptional aircraft in every respect, but XR749 was one of the best of the best. It is probably the best aircraft that I will ever have had the privilege to fly. Because of her tail code BM, she was known as "Big Mother", although the tail code changed to BO for her last few months on 11 before joining the LTF in January 1985.
She was a very hot ship, even for a Lightning She remained my aircraft for all her time on 11 Sqn despite my being entitled to an F6 as I moved up the squadron pecking order. I invariably asked for her to be allocated to me for the major exercises such as MALLET BLOW, OSEX, and ELDER FOREST despite her being a short range F3 - there were invariably plenty of tankers about!" His memories include the time in April 1984, during a squadron exchange at Binbrook when he and XR749 participated in unofficial time-to-height and acceleration trials against F104 Starfighters from Aalborg. The Lightnings won all races easily, with the exception of the low level supersonic acceleration, which was a dead heat. This is not surprising when the records show that the year before on one sortie XR749 accelerated to Mach 2.3 (1500 mph) in September 1983.
In 1984 during a major NATO exercise he intercepted an American U-2 at 66000 ft,a height which they had previously considered safe from interception. Shortly before this intercept, he flew a zoom climb to 88,000 ft and, later that year he was able to sustain FL550 while flying subsonic. Life was not entirely without problems, however, as in a three month period his No 2 engine seized in flight and its replacement failed during a take-off when intake panelling on the inside of the aircraft became detached and was sucked into the engine. In April 1985, British Airways were trialling a Concorde up and down the North Sea. When they offered it as a target to NATO fighters, Mike spent the night in the hangar polishing XR749 which he borrowed from the LTF for the occasion and the next day overhauled Concorde at 57,000 ft and travelling at Mach 2.2 by flying a stern conversion intercept. "Everyone had a bash - F15s, F-16s, F-14s, Mirage, F-104s". "But only the Lightning managed to overhaul Concorde from behind" !
In October 1985, XR749 represented the LTF on the tenth anniversary of the units formation. It was given a new colour scheme - light grey underside, dark grey upperside, with the spine and tail fin dark blue. It was the only Lightning to be so coloured and then only for two months, but that is now its permanent livery at Teeside Airport.
Account taken from "Lightning Review" by Charles Ross.
LIGHTNING vs CONCORDE
The Lightning that once overtook Concorde was described as "the best of the best" by Flt Lt Mike Hale at the roll-out ceremony for XR749 at Teeside Airport on September 28th 1995.
Now an instructor with 56 Sqn at Coningsby, Mike flew 80 sorties in XR749 after the aircraft was allocated to 11 Squadron at Binbrook. He has a particular affection for the aircraft: "The Lightning was an exceptional aircraft in every respect, but XR749 was one of the best of the best. It is probably the best aircraft that I will ever have had the privilege to fly. Because of her tail code BM, she was known as "Big Mother", although the tail code changed to BO for her last few months on 11 before joining the LTF in January 1985.
She was a very hot ship, even for a Lightning She remained my aircraft for all her time on 11 Sqn despite my being entitled to an F6 as I moved up the squadron pecking order. I invariably asked for her to be allocated to me for the major exercises such as MALLET BLOW, OSEX, and ELDER FOREST despite her being a short range F3 - there were invariably plenty of tankers about!" His memories include the time in April 1984, during a squadron exchange at Binbrook when he and XR749 participated in unofficial time-to-height and acceleration trials against F104 Starfighters from Aalborg. The Lightnings won all races easily, with the exception of the low level supersonic acceleration, which was a dead heat. This is not surprising when the records show that the year before on one sortie XR749 accelerated to Mach 2.3 (1500 mph) in September 1983.
In 1984 during a major NATO exercise he intercepted an American U-2 at 66000 ft,a height which they had previously considered safe from interception. Shortly before this intercept, he flew a zoom climb to 88,000 ft and, later that year he was able to sustain FL550 while flying subsonic. Life was not entirely without problems, however, as in a three month period his No 2 engine seized in flight and its replacement failed during a take-off when intake panelling on the inside of the aircraft became detached and was sucked into the engine. In April 1985, British Airways were trialling a Concorde up and down the North Sea. When they offered it as a target to NATO fighters, Mike spent the night in the hangar polishing XR749 which he borrowed from the LTF for the occasion and the next day overhauled Concorde at 57,000 ft and travelling at Mach 2.2 by flying a stern conversion intercept. "Everyone had a bash - F15s, F-16s, F-14s, Mirage, F-104s". "But only the Lightning managed to overhaul Concorde from behind" !
In October 1985, XR749 represented the LTF on the tenth anniversary of the units formation. It was given a new colour scheme - light grey underside, dark grey upperside, with the spine and tail fin dark blue. It was the only Lightning to be so coloured and then only for two months, but that is now its permanent livery at Teeside Airport.
Account taken from "Lightning Review" by Charles Ross.
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An excellent thread, this one.
ARXW, all models of the F-4 had more thrust (up to 40,500lbst total) than any of the Lightning models, but they also had more weight (31,500lb empty to 58,000lb max), higher wing loading and drag off the clock, especially the fat UK F-4, which was also in major breach of the Area Rule. Overall, whilst the F-4 might have been pretty nifty accelerator up to the transonic region, it lost out to the Lightning beyond that and had generally poorer turning performance at all speeds. But the F-4 did carry considerably more fuel, more and better weapons and far superior radar and it would generally win any fight with a Lightning that lasted more than a minute or so. And if the fight took place more than 10 miles from the Lightning base - well, no contest!!
ARXW, all models of the F-4 had more thrust (up to 40,500lbst total) than any of the Lightning models, but they also had more weight (31,500lb empty to 58,000lb max), higher wing loading and drag off the clock, especially the fat UK F-4, which was also in major breach of the Area Rule. Overall, whilst the F-4 might have been pretty nifty accelerator up to the transonic region, it lost out to the Lightning beyond that and had generally poorer turning performance at all speeds. But the F-4 did carry considerably more fuel, more and better weapons and far superior radar and it would generally win any fight with a Lightning that lasted more than a minute or so. And if the fight took place more than 10 miles from the Lightning base - well, no contest!!
A bit off the subject I know, but my most memorable meeting with a Lightning (apart from the one that tried to bounce us in the Med when we were v-e-r-y low and slow) was at Acklington (sadly now long closed). Whilst locking up the squadron buildings as duty student at 6 FTS long after flying for the day had finished and just about dusk a slight noise made me turn round just in time to see said Lightning apparently dead sticking it on to the 6000ft runway. As everything else was closed I rang the SDO - as he was a great god QFI and I was but a lowly student who knew nothing - and was duly b*******d for disturbing him at the bar. Eventually peruaded him to investigate and we drove out to see ac gently sinking into the tarmac at the end of the runway (LCN numbers)
It transpired the pilot was an ex 6 FTS guy who was on the Lightning OCU at Leuchars and had essentially run out of fuel - and the only runway he knew was ours. I think he got a good show for saving the jet and chopped for poor awareness!
Incidentally, was at Changi at time of Tengah crash, but if I remember that was not the only incident, as a certain Victor tanker crew might be able to recount after seeing the plan view of an F6 pass right in front of them whilst overflying Tengah!
Pertama
It transpired the pilot was an ex 6 FTS guy who was on the Lightning OCU at Leuchars and had essentially run out of fuel - and the only runway he knew was ours. I think he got a good show for saving the jet and chopped for poor awareness!
Incidentally, was at Changi at time of Tengah crash, but if I remember that was not the only incident, as a certain Victor tanker crew might be able to recount after seeing the plan view of an F6 pass right in front of them whilst overflying Tengah!
Pertama
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When they offered it as a target to NATO fighters, Mike spent the night in the hangar polishing XR749 which he borrowed from the LTF for the occasion
Zoom,
But not many a fight did last more than a minute! I think the F-4 was an even thirstier beast in burner (1800lbs/min low level max).. F-4 has never been mentioned as a problem to the Lightning in combat...
But not many a fight did last more than a minute! I think the F-4 was an even thirstier beast in burner (1800lbs/min low level max).. F-4 has never been mentioned as a problem to the Lightning in combat...
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Good old day's of DACT. The Lightning playing the vertical, the F-4 playing the horizontal.
That's after they'd spent 5 minutes with the Lightning up at 50K telling the F4 to come up and fight like men; whilst the F-4 sat down at 20K telling him to come down and say that.........
That's after they'd spent 5 minutes with the Lightning up at 50K telling the F4 to come up and fight like men; whilst the F-4 sat down at 20K telling him to come down and say that.........
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Having seen the Lightning from both sides against the F-4 I have to say that the former was a lot of fun but not much use as a weapons system in comparison to the latter. The fact that it was rushed from a prototype into service as a fighter is the reason and that it did the job at all was fortuitous. What a shame that its' weapons system did not get the development effort it required because we have had nothing like it in performance since.
F-4s playing the horizontal?
These guys must have been desperate! In the immortal words of USN F-4 pilot 'about the only thing we could outturn in those days was the F-104'. This couldn't have been very encouraging against a Lightning...
These guys must have been desperate! In the immortal words of USN F-4 pilot 'about the only thing we could outturn in those days was the F-104'. This couldn't have been very encouraging against a Lightning...