lightning supercruise
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There certainly was a difference between the small and big winged versions when doing a rotation. With the small wing, you could just hoick the stick back, the a/c effectivly pulled right through the stall and just kept on rotating till the stick was shoved forward, the big wing wasn't as good as the small for this manouvre.
You could certainly spin the a/c. If I remember correctly BAe (or BAC or English Electic) did spin trials, I believe a total of 70+ spins. The only time the a/c didn't come out cleanly was due to the pilot not applying enough opposite rudder initially. BAC recommended that spinning should be demo'd on the OCU but it never happenerd.
That's as much as the ageing grey matter can recall, may be some inaccuracies but esentially correct.
You could certainly spin the a/c. If I remember correctly BAe (or BAC or English Electic) did spin trials, I believe a total of 70+ spins. The only time the a/c didn't come out cleanly was due to the pilot not applying enough opposite rudder initially. BAC recommended that spinning should be demo'd on the OCU but it never happenerd.
That's as much as the ageing grey matter can recall, may be some inaccuracies but esentially correct.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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(didn't know the Lightning could pull as much from such a low airspeed!)
To get a rough idea of how fast you need to go to pull Xg multiply the aircraft stalling speed by the square root of the g you want to pull.
I say rough, because mach effects mean you never quite get this level of theoretical performance. So do expect to need a few more kts even at apparently low mach numbers. But it is a start.
And of course there is some lift due to thrust deflection during manoeuvre, quite a lot if the aircraft (like the Lightning) gets to a high alpha at the stall...Oh dear I should never have started this.
Nice replies. Thanks.
JF if you are the man to hover that first jump jet I got to say - respect!
I actually saw you some years back ('98?) at a RAeS lecture by an American on gunsights/HUDs etc. You might remember the venue better than me. What sticks to mind is that somebody (you?) mentioned a test fight between an F-14D and a Harrier in which the 14 still got beat..
JF if you are the man to hover that first jump jet I got to say - respect!
I actually saw you some years back ('98?) at a RAeS lecture by an American on gunsights/HUDs etc. You might remember the venue better than me. What sticks to mind is that somebody (you?) mentioned a test fight between an F-14D and a Harrier in which the 14 still got beat..
The Lightning high rotation take-off featured in a cinema newsreel during the early 60s. It was a full squadron formation affair - twelve aircraft in 4 vics and simultaneous rotation then upwards, ever upwards. The response from the cinema audience was a spontaneous burst of applause. Maybe the fact that the cinema was in Bangkok was a factor, but I reckon applause for a newsreel item may have been unique. The film? ...... 'Breakfast at Tiffanys' - not remotely aviation related but the young lady enjoyed it ..... oh, go on then, I did as well!!
JF - small world - she became your secretary but I don't think the newsreel had anything to do with that !!
JF - small world - she became your secretary but I don't think the newsreel had anything to do with that !!
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Um, the original question was about 'supercruise'? By that, I assume you mean supersonic cruise without the use of reheat thrust. I seem to remember being told by my Dad, who has some considerable experience on all marks of the Lightning from the P1B to the F2A, via the F1, F1A, F3, F6 and associated T-birds, that the early aircraft could maintain a low supersonic cruise without reheat, depending on altitude and temperature, but that the later, heavier aircraft could not. I will check with him to see if I've remembered it correctly!
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OK, checked with the old man - apparently all marks of Lightning could maintain M1.2, or thereabouts, level at or around 35,000ft. In fact, the aircraft would climb supersonic in dry power if a lower-than-normal climb attitude was selected. Normal climb was 350kt/M0.9.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
A follow up Q on supercruise...If the Lightning could do M1.2 at 35k on dry power then why have they been complaining about very short endurance all along? The jet practically doesn't need reheat (except for those fully developed ACM sorties in which the pilot is in the unfortunate position to have to sustain the fight for more than a few seconds)!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Even in cold the endurance was only around 65 minutes. You could, theoretically of course, extend that by shutting down an engine and doing a restart when needed, but that would have been against regulations.
Last edited by ORAC; 6th Oct 2003 at 03:25.
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First post after many months, if not years, of enjoyable reading. However, I never did like writing (just ask my tutors at ISS, BSC and ASC!). My memory may have dulled but I think that my comments are all accurate.
Firstly scroggs: the climb speed/mach no was 450kts/M0.9 not 350kts. Initial pitch attitude was 18 degrees in cold power/30 degrees in burner. Mind you, a light 747 will climb at 20 degrees and get to 39,000ft in about 13 mins
Next Firestreak, if you were on the fleet in the early/mid 70s you probably remember the spinning film produced by BAe that was part of the annual training syllabus and the annual (I think?) Jet Provost spinning trip that went with it. From personal experience x 2 (both due to gross mishandling subsonic and super/transonic), the ac was pretty stable in the spin and recovered readily.
ORAC, the longest none-AAR/none-OWT trip that I ever flew was 90 mins; it consisted of subsonic PIs at high level in cruise nozzle (max efficiency) followed by a drift down to Binbrook at 250kts and landing with Wadd VFR fuel. It was just before Christmas. We were trying to crack the annual hours target so that the station could combine the Christmas and New Year holidays; I flew 4 trips that day for 5:30 and tanked on only one of them.
Lightningmate: certainly during the 70s, rotes were forbidden to all bar the display pilots who, as usual, required AOC's final approval. I never did one but I did take our hangar queen to Laarbruch for final disposal at the demise of the RAFG Lightnings. The AI, guns and ballast had been removed and I did confirm that the ac 's CofG was in limits. But it didn't seem to be; on rotation, the ac nose continued to rise despite me pushing the stick fully forward. Fortunately, the speed continued to build and at about 220kts the elevators began to work. The duty pilot thought that it was a punchy take-of given the ac's history of irrepairable centre-section fuel leaks. That experience did give me the a desire to experiment but that is another story
Finally, ARXW:it doesn't matter how efficient your ac is, if it hasn't got the gas it can't endure.
Firstly scroggs: the climb speed/mach no was 450kts/M0.9 not 350kts. Initial pitch attitude was 18 degrees in cold power/30 degrees in burner. Mind you, a light 747 will climb at 20 degrees and get to 39,000ft in about 13 mins
Next Firestreak, if you were on the fleet in the early/mid 70s you probably remember the spinning film produced by BAe that was part of the annual training syllabus and the annual (I think?) Jet Provost spinning trip that went with it. From personal experience x 2 (both due to gross mishandling subsonic and super/transonic), the ac was pretty stable in the spin and recovered readily.
ORAC, the longest none-AAR/none-OWT trip that I ever flew was 90 mins; it consisted of subsonic PIs at high level in cruise nozzle (max efficiency) followed by a drift down to Binbrook at 250kts and landing with Wadd VFR fuel. It was just before Christmas. We were trying to crack the annual hours target so that the station could combine the Christmas and New Year holidays; I flew 4 trips that day for 5:30 and tanked on only one of them.
Lightningmate: certainly during the 70s, rotes were forbidden to all bar the display pilots who, as usual, required AOC's final approval. I never did one but I did take our hangar queen to Laarbruch for final disposal at the demise of the RAFG Lightnings. The AI, guns and ballast had been removed and I did confirm that the ac 's CofG was in limits. But it didn't seem to be; on rotation, the ac nose continued to rise despite me pushing the stick fully forward. Fortunately, the speed continued to build and at about 220kts the elevators began to work. The duty pilot thought that it was a punchy take-of given the ac's history of irrepairable centre-section fuel leaks. That experience did give me the a desire to experiment but that is another story
Finally, ARXW:it doesn't matter how efficient your ac is, if it hasn't got the gas it can't endure.
Last edited by jah; 6th Oct 2003 at 21:57.
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ARXW
going back to an earlier post where you mentioned the inverted spin over Binbrook.
I do know the pilot involved and will ask him about the manoeuvre - I know he ended up using the Martin-Baker facility.
going back to an earlier post where you mentioned the inverted spin over Binbrook.
I do know the pilot involved and will ask him about the manoeuvre - I know he ended up using the Martin-Baker facility.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The Airfix Special must have held the record for non-AAR endurance. It regularly trogged back and forth at high level as a target for 3 or 4 studs in row in one trip.
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I'd just like to say that threads like this are why I love PPruNe. As an ordinary PPL student I just love reading things from people who have Been There and Done That and are willing to discuss it
(and I always thought the Lightning was a cool looking plane!).
(and I always thought the Lightning was a cool looking plane!).
Couldn't agree more with you Dop (interesting name btw)!
Overstress,
Thanks. Is it true he asked for a second aircraft right after he knackered the 1st one?
Point taken jah (interesting name !), still remarkable that the jet could supercruise...
Overstress,
Thanks. Is it true he asked for a second aircraft right after he knackered the 1st one?
Point taken jah (interesting name !), still remarkable that the jet could supercruise...
I'll bet the F4 didn't though!
No doubt there are piccies of Vixens and Buccs in the same "Oh sheeeeeeeeeeeeehit" attitude from the days when the RN had real carriers.
No doubt there are piccies of Vixens and Buccs in the same "Oh sheeeeeeeeeeeeehit" attitude from the days when the RN had real carriers.
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Lighting Mk 3s at Wattisham
Re the High Rotation Take Off.
I was at Wattisham in 68, as a AI 23b fixer on 29 Sqdn.
We had a Good Neighbours day, as a way of making up to the locals for too many night QRA scrambles and one or two fast run in and breaks!!!!!!
Part of the Display was a Scramble of 8 Mk3s, 4 from 29 and 4 from 111, 29 had one go U/S with a massive bubble on a tyre, so the scramble was 4, 3 and then 1 from different ends of the Runway. all 8 did the Rotations and spectacular and noisy it was.
However that was not the end of it as the flights formed up into 2 Box formations and flew from behind the spectator line very very very fast and low (just above hangar height ) exactly on time just as the commentator said ‘ Ladies and Gents I present No 29 and 111 sqdns )
If I remember rightly they all lit there Afterburners and went vertical at that point.
It was the most spectacular and noisiest thing I have ever seen or herd.
Don’t think the Neighbours were very impressed though!!!!
I was at Wattisham in 68, as a AI 23b fixer on 29 Sqdn.
We had a Good Neighbours day, as a way of making up to the locals for too many night QRA scrambles and one or two fast run in and breaks!!!!!!
Part of the Display was a Scramble of 8 Mk3s, 4 from 29 and 4 from 111, 29 had one go U/S with a massive bubble on a tyre, so the scramble was 4, 3 and then 1 from different ends of the Runway. all 8 did the Rotations and spectacular and noisy it was.
However that was not the end of it as the flights formed up into 2 Box formations and flew from behind the spectator line very very very fast and low (just above hangar height ) exactly on time just as the commentator said ‘ Ladies and Gents I present No 29 and 111 sqdns )
If I remember rightly they all lit there Afterburners and went vertical at that point.
It was the most spectacular and noisiest thing I have ever seen or herd.
Don’t think the Neighbours were very impressed though!!!!
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Orionsbelt
I was on 29 (F) Squadron at that time, I do recall that happening and I think that coincided with a FA Cup Final Saturday, deliberately chosen to avoid such a large crowd gathering,
My diaries for this period shows one entry thus:
10th July
1968 Wattisham: Exercise King Pin underway, all pilots strapped into their cockpits on the ASP, we then went into a 'battle scramble' position and had to move all aircraft to 06 Runway ORP in readiness for immediate take off. This did happen some time later.
Roughly about the same time there was a flypast from RAF Wattisham where we had about 20+ kites overfly RAF Bentley Priory when Fighter Command ceased to be in existence and Strike Command took over the role, I recall that we very nearly lost a diamond 4 on the return to WTM
I was on 29 (F) Squadron at that time, I do recall that happening and I think that coincided with a FA Cup Final Saturday, deliberately chosen to avoid such a large crowd gathering,
My diaries for this period shows one entry thus:
10th July
1968 Wattisham: Exercise King Pin underway, all pilots strapped into their cockpits on the ASP, we then went into a 'battle scramble' position and had to move all aircraft to 06 Runway ORP in readiness for immediate take off. This did happen some time later.
Roughly about the same time there was a flypast from RAF Wattisham where we had about 20+ kites overfly RAF Bentley Priory when Fighter Command ceased to be in existence and Strike Command took over the role, I recall that we very nearly lost a diamond 4 on the return to WTM