Dr Kelly was murdered
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Dr Kelly was murdered
Body 'matches' Iraq expert
18th July 2003
BBC Online
A body matching the description of Dr David Kelly - the weapons expert at the centre of the Iraq dossier row - has been found at a beauty spot close to his home in Oxfordshire.
The government says an independent judicial inquiry will be held into the circumstances of his death if the body is confirmed to be that of the MoD adviser. The discovery was made at 0920 BST by a member of the police team searching for Dr Kelly in a wooded area at Harrowdown Hill, near Faringdon.
Dr Kelly, 59, had been caught up in a row between the BBC and the government about the use of intelligence reports in the run-up to the war with Iraq. On Tuesday he told the Foreign Affairs select committee he had spoken to BBC reporter Andrew Gilligan but denied he was the main source for a story about claims that a dossier on Iraq had been "sexed up".
Dr Kelly left his home in Southmoor, Abingdon, Oxfordshire, at about 1500 BST on Thursday and his family reported him missing at 2345 BST the same day. The body was found lying on the ground, around five miles from Dr Kelly's home, a police spokeswoman said.
Acting superintendent Dave Purnell said formal identification would take place on Saturday and the case was being treated as an "unexplained death".
"We will be awaiting the results of the post mortem and also waiting while the forensic examination continues at the scene at Harrowdown Hill," he added. A hearse left the scene shortly before 2000 BST on Friday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THINGS TO BEAR IN MIND
Dr Kelly was looking forward to enjoying his entirement next year.
The last person to see him alive said he was smiling as he walked in the countryside near his home
The man who revealed that the government lied to win support for the war on Iraq is now dead
Dr Kelly was well known as a devoted family man, so why did he not leave a suicide note or explanation for the wife he has loved for so many years
His wrist was cut and a bottle of pain killers were found near the scene of death. These are two classic hallmarks of suicide, and exactly what the public would expect in a TV soap drama suicide. However this is not consistent with the action of such a rational and educated man
Notice how Tony Blair was in Japan when the tragedy occured just as Parliament breaks up for summer. He couldn't distance himself any further if he tried physically and the summer recess/inquiry announcement would give him time think about the spin plan and hopefully time for the public interest to subside.
Treason is still a capital offence in Britain
The US Government were hurling threats to UN inspectors before the war to declare that Iraq has WMDs
Is it really believable that an intelligent and learned man who had survived the pressures of the Iraqi regime should commit suicide in such an obvious way over a one line accusation about a spin doctor after his part in the inquiry into faulty intelligence was over and the media interest in him was subsiding and certainly would have done over time - are we expected to believe he was such a weak man?
DR KELLY DEATH POSSIBILITIES
Dr Kelly killed himself because of the political and media pressure
Dr Kelly killed himself for lying to Andrew Gilligan and betraying the Government
Dr Kelly killed himself for speaking the truth to Andrew Gilligan and feared for Government repercussions
A combination of either of the first three possibilities
Dr Kelly was assassinated by the intelligence services to stop Dr. Kelly from opening his mouth again and/or as an example to other whistleblowers (possibly with or without Government knowledge) - THE UNTHINKABLE POSSIBILITY THAT THE 'FREE' MEDIA WON'T EVEN DARE SUGGEST HAS HAPPENED
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TIMELINE OF EVENTS
Dr Kelly sends a friend an e-mail in which he expressed a desire to return to the job that meant so much to him. "Hopefully it will soon pass" he wrote "and I can get to Baghdad and get on with the real work." He goes for a walk - a witness sees him smiling before he goes on his walk
His family reports him missing
A body is found suspected to be Dr. David Kelly
The news report the death as "unexplained" - couldn't (or wouldn't) say suicide or murder - after 24 hours they still don't know whether it is suicide or murder (this is thinking time - how to limit Government disrepute and not give away too much damaging information without thought of the long term political consequences)
The Government order an independent judicial inquiry - one of the weakest forms of inquiry with limited powers unlike the Bloody Sunday Tribunal or BSE Enquiry (of course Blair's Government had nothing to hide from either of these enquiries because they weren't in power, but they did hide sensitive information regarding the enquiry into Dunblane killer, Thomas Hamilton)
As Tony Blair struggled to compose himself during a press conference in Japan, panicky MI5 officers were sweeping through the £750,000 home of the 59-year-old germ warfare expert near Abingdon, Oxon. According to the Sunday Mirror, an intelligence source said: "People are starting to put two and two together and they don't like what it is adding up to. There is absolute panic about what Dr Kelly may have left behind. It's a ticking time-bomb...they are desperate to find out what he has done" (click here to hear Blair giving a press conference in Japan)
Blair continues on his world tour to show the world that "everything's fine" and that "the Government isn't in crisis"
July 19th - Police confirm that Dr. Kelly died of bleeding from his slashed left wrist. They found a knife nearby and some pain killers - the typical hallmarks of an assassination
Dr. Kelly doesn't leave a suicide note and chooses a suicide method only used by approximately 10-15% of suiciders
Tony Blair fails to answer an questions and keeps referring to the "wait and see" the outcome of the inquiry. He also rules out recalling parliament to avoid further awkward questioning
20th July - The BBC announces that David Kelly was in the fact the main source for Andrew Gilligan's report which makes the whole situation even more suspicious. It is more likely that Dr. Kelly was hounded by the MoD, Geoff Hoon and Alistair Campbell and more likely that he has paid the price for whistleblowing and it also explains why Dr. Kelly tried to distance himself from Andrew Gilligan by saying he thought he wasn't the main source to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. The Government will try to twist this round by saying the BBC are accusing Dr. Kelly of lying to the committee when in fact Dr. Kelly could have been scared to death of the consequences of speaking off the record to the media over classified intelligence and Government propaganda tactics.
It is revealed that a day before Dr Kelly died he warned a New York Times journalist of "many dark actors playing games" in an e-mail and Dr. Kelly may have made a phone call to someone from a call box for fear that his phone was being tapped
23rd July - The BBC reveal that they have a tape of Dr. Kelly's evidence to Susan Watts. The BBC is expected to submit the tape as part of its evidence to the judicial inquiry led by Lord Hutton into Dr Kelly's death. I wonder whether this tape will be made public or whether the Government will try to surpress it the interest of "national security".
24th July - Dr Kelly's widow summons Geoff Hoon to a meeting. Nothing is revealed about the discussions.
Don't expect to hear the evidence for yourself. It is announced that there is to be no broadcast of evidence given to the inquiry but we are told that transcripts will be available "almost immediately". Clearly an attempt to make it more difficult for the public to get to know what is said at the inquiry.
25th July - ITN and Sky News have launched complaints to Lord Hutton to reverse his ban on the broadcasting of the inquiry on the grounds the hearings will be of national and historical importance. The BBC has declined to join the action, arguing that as an interested party it should not put itself in conflict with Lord Hutton from the start. But the BBC says it will broadcast the proceedings if the application by Sky and ITN is successful.
27th July - The Government starts to play dirty with threats to the BBC. The BBC chairman said he had been angered at threats from "government sources" to reduce BBC funding, remove its director-general Greg Dyke and change its charter. Typical kind of action employed by people like Robert Mugabe.
MOD OFFICIALS CAUGHT TRYING TO DESTROY THERE COVER-UP PLAN
BBC Online
2nd August 2003
The Ministry of Defence has denied newspaper suggestions that it sought to destroy a document relating to Dr David Kelly. According to the Daily Telegraph, officials were preparing to incinerate a "media plan" about the government weapons expert when they were stopped by security guards. It is alleged that three days after Dr Kelly was found dead, the document was placed in a sack of material due to be burnt. The guards became aware of this and alerted the police. On Saturday, MoD sources conceded to the BBC there had been a "security breach" on 20 July when a bag of confidential material due for incineration was left out overnight. However the sources said they were not aware that any of the material in the bag, which was taken away by Thames Valley Police, related to Dr Kelly.
Blair evidence
The BBC's political correspondent Norman Smith said it seemed unavoidable that Lord Hutton, who is carrying out an inquiry into Dr Kelly's death, would want to know if the police still have the bag and if so whether it does contain any relevant material. He said the allegation raises the spectre of a potential cover-up by government officials whose evidence is likely to form a key part of the inquiry.
Footnote: In another story hitting the headlines today it has been suggested by a forensic expert that it is highly unlikely that the the four soldiers who died at Deepcut Barracks within a space of seven years up to 2002, committed suicide (which the the MoD claims). What do you think? Another cover-up by Tony's cronies?
18th July 2003
BBC Online
A body matching the description of Dr David Kelly - the weapons expert at the centre of the Iraq dossier row - has been found at a beauty spot close to his home in Oxfordshire.
The government says an independent judicial inquiry will be held into the circumstances of his death if the body is confirmed to be that of the MoD adviser. The discovery was made at 0920 BST by a member of the police team searching for Dr Kelly in a wooded area at Harrowdown Hill, near Faringdon.
Dr Kelly, 59, had been caught up in a row between the BBC and the government about the use of intelligence reports in the run-up to the war with Iraq. On Tuesday he told the Foreign Affairs select committee he had spoken to BBC reporter Andrew Gilligan but denied he was the main source for a story about claims that a dossier on Iraq had been "sexed up".
Dr Kelly left his home in Southmoor, Abingdon, Oxfordshire, at about 1500 BST on Thursday and his family reported him missing at 2345 BST the same day. The body was found lying on the ground, around five miles from Dr Kelly's home, a police spokeswoman said.
Acting superintendent Dave Purnell said formal identification would take place on Saturday and the case was being treated as an "unexplained death".
"We will be awaiting the results of the post mortem and also waiting while the forensic examination continues at the scene at Harrowdown Hill," he added. A hearse left the scene shortly before 2000 BST on Friday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THINGS TO BEAR IN MIND
Dr Kelly was looking forward to enjoying his entirement next year.
The last person to see him alive said he was smiling as he walked in the countryside near his home
The man who revealed that the government lied to win support for the war on Iraq is now dead
Dr Kelly was well known as a devoted family man, so why did he not leave a suicide note or explanation for the wife he has loved for so many years
His wrist was cut and a bottle of pain killers were found near the scene of death. These are two classic hallmarks of suicide, and exactly what the public would expect in a TV soap drama suicide. However this is not consistent with the action of such a rational and educated man
Notice how Tony Blair was in Japan when the tragedy occured just as Parliament breaks up for summer. He couldn't distance himself any further if he tried physically and the summer recess/inquiry announcement would give him time think about the spin plan and hopefully time for the public interest to subside.
Treason is still a capital offence in Britain
The US Government were hurling threats to UN inspectors before the war to declare that Iraq has WMDs
Is it really believable that an intelligent and learned man who had survived the pressures of the Iraqi regime should commit suicide in such an obvious way over a one line accusation about a spin doctor after his part in the inquiry into faulty intelligence was over and the media interest in him was subsiding and certainly would have done over time - are we expected to believe he was such a weak man?
DR KELLY DEATH POSSIBILITIES
Dr Kelly killed himself because of the political and media pressure
Dr Kelly killed himself for lying to Andrew Gilligan and betraying the Government
Dr Kelly killed himself for speaking the truth to Andrew Gilligan and feared for Government repercussions
A combination of either of the first three possibilities
Dr Kelly was assassinated by the intelligence services to stop Dr. Kelly from opening his mouth again and/or as an example to other whistleblowers (possibly with or without Government knowledge) - THE UNTHINKABLE POSSIBILITY THAT THE 'FREE' MEDIA WON'T EVEN DARE SUGGEST HAS HAPPENED
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TIMELINE OF EVENTS
Dr Kelly sends a friend an e-mail in which he expressed a desire to return to the job that meant so much to him. "Hopefully it will soon pass" he wrote "and I can get to Baghdad and get on with the real work." He goes for a walk - a witness sees him smiling before he goes on his walk
His family reports him missing
A body is found suspected to be Dr. David Kelly
The news report the death as "unexplained" - couldn't (or wouldn't) say suicide or murder - after 24 hours they still don't know whether it is suicide or murder (this is thinking time - how to limit Government disrepute and not give away too much damaging information without thought of the long term political consequences)
The Government order an independent judicial inquiry - one of the weakest forms of inquiry with limited powers unlike the Bloody Sunday Tribunal or BSE Enquiry (of course Blair's Government had nothing to hide from either of these enquiries because they weren't in power, but they did hide sensitive information regarding the enquiry into Dunblane killer, Thomas Hamilton)
As Tony Blair struggled to compose himself during a press conference in Japan, panicky MI5 officers were sweeping through the £750,000 home of the 59-year-old germ warfare expert near Abingdon, Oxon. According to the Sunday Mirror, an intelligence source said: "People are starting to put two and two together and they don't like what it is adding up to. There is absolute panic about what Dr Kelly may have left behind. It's a ticking time-bomb...they are desperate to find out what he has done" (click here to hear Blair giving a press conference in Japan)
Blair continues on his world tour to show the world that "everything's fine" and that "the Government isn't in crisis"
July 19th - Police confirm that Dr. Kelly died of bleeding from his slashed left wrist. They found a knife nearby and some pain killers - the typical hallmarks of an assassination
Dr. Kelly doesn't leave a suicide note and chooses a suicide method only used by approximately 10-15% of suiciders
Tony Blair fails to answer an questions and keeps referring to the "wait and see" the outcome of the inquiry. He also rules out recalling parliament to avoid further awkward questioning
20th July - The BBC announces that David Kelly was in the fact the main source for Andrew Gilligan's report which makes the whole situation even more suspicious. It is more likely that Dr. Kelly was hounded by the MoD, Geoff Hoon and Alistair Campbell and more likely that he has paid the price for whistleblowing and it also explains why Dr. Kelly tried to distance himself from Andrew Gilligan by saying he thought he wasn't the main source to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. The Government will try to twist this round by saying the BBC are accusing Dr. Kelly of lying to the committee when in fact Dr. Kelly could have been scared to death of the consequences of speaking off the record to the media over classified intelligence and Government propaganda tactics.
It is revealed that a day before Dr Kelly died he warned a New York Times journalist of "many dark actors playing games" in an e-mail and Dr. Kelly may have made a phone call to someone from a call box for fear that his phone was being tapped
23rd July - The BBC reveal that they have a tape of Dr. Kelly's evidence to Susan Watts. The BBC is expected to submit the tape as part of its evidence to the judicial inquiry led by Lord Hutton into Dr Kelly's death. I wonder whether this tape will be made public or whether the Government will try to surpress it the interest of "national security".
24th July - Dr Kelly's widow summons Geoff Hoon to a meeting. Nothing is revealed about the discussions.
Don't expect to hear the evidence for yourself. It is announced that there is to be no broadcast of evidence given to the inquiry but we are told that transcripts will be available "almost immediately". Clearly an attempt to make it more difficult for the public to get to know what is said at the inquiry.
25th July - ITN and Sky News have launched complaints to Lord Hutton to reverse his ban on the broadcasting of the inquiry on the grounds the hearings will be of national and historical importance. The BBC has declined to join the action, arguing that as an interested party it should not put itself in conflict with Lord Hutton from the start. But the BBC says it will broadcast the proceedings if the application by Sky and ITN is successful.
27th July - The Government starts to play dirty with threats to the BBC. The BBC chairman said he had been angered at threats from "government sources" to reduce BBC funding, remove its director-general Greg Dyke and change its charter. Typical kind of action employed by people like Robert Mugabe.
MOD OFFICIALS CAUGHT TRYING TO DESTROY THERE COVER-UP PLAN
BBC Online
2nd August 2003
The Ministry of Defence has denied newspaper suggestions that it sought to destroy a document relating to Dr David Kelly. According to the Daily Telegraph, officials were preparing to incinerate a "media plan" about the government weapons expert when they were stopped by security guards. It is alleged that three days after Dr Kelly was found dead, the document was placed in a sack of material due to be burnt. The guards became aware of this and alerted the police. On Saturday, MoD sources conceded to the BBC there had been a "security breach" on 20 July when a bag of confidential material due for incineration was left out overnight. However the sources said they were not aware that any of the material in the bag, which was taken away by Thames Valley Police, related to Dr Kelly.
Blair evidence
The BBC's political correspondent Norman Smith said it seemed unavoidable that Lord Hutton, who is carrying out an inquiry into Dr Kelly's death, would want to know if the police still have the bag and if so whether it does contain any relevant material. He said the allegation raises the spectre of a potential cover-up by government officials whose evidence is likely to form a key part of the inquiry.
Footnote: In another story hitting the headlines today it has been suggested by a forensic expert that it is highly unlikely that the the four soldiers who died at Deepcut Barracks within a space of seven years up to 2002, committed suicide (which the the MoD claims). What do you think? Another cover-up by Tony's cronies?
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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..can't possibily comment on the above!
But.. having been in the ambulance service for 14 years to the day, I had never known anyone sucessfully die from cutting their wrists until this incident.
Then by some strange coincidence I attend a call where someone had sucessfully died from cutting his wrists - unfortunately he had needed to almost sever both hands to suceed...
But.. having been in the ambulance service for 14 years to the day, I had never known anyone sucessfully die from cutting their wrists until this incident.
Then by some strange coincidence I attend a call where someone had sucessfully died from cutting his wrists - unfortunately he had needed to almost sever both hands to suceed...
I have often wondered , and no-one has yet explained, how Dr Kelly was able to go for a walk without being hounded by the media who, I thought, were camped on his doorstep, as is their want at such times.
I had some disquiet that someone with Kelly's background would choose such a crude, painful, and unreliable means of suicide (he was a biochemist for goodness sake, surely he'd have known, and been able to get, something which would have 'switched his lights out' in an instant?). I had some disquiet that he seemed to be looking forward to 'life after committees' and to going back to Iraq. He hadn't even opened his 'telling off letter' from his line manager. I had some disquiet that none of the likely consequences of his exposure seemed to me to be something that a rational person would commit suicide over, especially in view of his impending retirement.
But someone who has decided on suicide as the way out might well seem 'sorted', rational, 'calm' and even serene and happy, so the fact that he smiled at Mrs Creosote en route to the field doesn't mean anything, IMHO.
Also the alternative explanation just seems to me like a particularly barking conspiracy theory, requiring an implausible cover up to have been undertaken, and assuming a barely credible level of cynicism from the Government.
Interesting that we're still focusing on Kelly, and that there's virtually no coverage of the continued lack of any evidence that Iraq ever had deployable WMD before the war started......
But someone who has decided on suicide as the way out might well seem 'sorted', rational, 'calm' and even serene and happy, so the fact that he smiled at Mrs Creosote en route to the field doesn't mean anything, IMHO.
Also the alternative explanation just seems to me like a particularly barking conspiracy theory, requiring an implausible cover up to have been undertaken, and assuming a barely credible level of cynicism from the Government.
Interesting that we're still focusing on Kelly, and that there's virtually no coverage of the continued lack of any evidence that Iraq ever had deployable WMD before the war started......
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Col. Kurtz says: "THE UNTHINKABLE POSSIBILITY THAT THE 'FREE' MEDIA WON'T EVEN DARE SUGGEST HAS HAPPENED"
I also find that intriguing, the one psychiatrist they wheeled out means absolutely nothing, saying "well nigh certain" DK comitted suicide... what is he? A Mindreader?
Psychiatrists aren't superhuman and their speculation is not so much more valid than an educated guess.
The psychiatrist also said:
"that e-mails Dr Kelly sent to friends at around 11 o'clock, the morning he disappeared, suggested that he still at that stage had some optimism and probably did not have definite ideas of suicide"
Oh.. and a little later he "changed" his mind eh? please!
Given the nature of the death, I'd expect a somewhat more detailed analysis.
From what I recall, only seriously suicidal people with very disturbed minds choose violent ways of suicide, and DK's state of mind didn't inidciate that from the evidence we hear.
I'm not saying he didn't commit suicide, but the one-sided view we are presented leaves one more than disturbed that their are "dark actors" around.
It's sad that trust in this government by the majority of people is absolutely zero. They have sunk so low it makes me sick.
I see Buff"Hoon" is still clinging to his job, despite the latest relevations. Has the man no dignity?
I also find that intriguing, the one psychiatrist they wheeled out means absolutely nothing, saying "well nigh certain" DK comitted suicide... what is he? A Mindreader?
Psychiatrists aren't superhuman and their speculation is not so much more valid than an educated guess.
The psychiatrist also said:
"that e-mails Dr Kelly sent to friends at around 11 o'clock, the morning he disappeared, suggested that he still at that stage had some optimism and probably did not have definite ideas of suicide"
Oh.. and a little later he "changed" his mind eh? please!
Given the nature of the death, I'd expect a somewhat more detailed analysis.
From what I recall, only seriously suicidal people with very disturbed minds choose violent ways of suicide, and DK's state of mind didn't inidciate that from the evidence we hear.
I'm not saying he didn't commit suicide, but the one-sided view we are presented leaves one more than disturbed that their are "dark actors" around.
It's sad that trust in this government by the majority of people is absolutely zero. They have sunk so low it makes me sick.
I see Buff"Hoon" is still clinging to his job, despite the latest relevations. Has the man no dignity?
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I suppose the 'assassins' managed to administer 30 coproxamol to the unfortunate Dr, without leaving a mark on him.
But, of course, the psychiatrist and the toxicologist are all in on the conspiracy too, aren't they?
But, of course, the psychiatrist and the toxicologist are all in on the conspiracy too, aren't they?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Ignoring the experts who have testified that this was almost certainly a suicide.
Ignoring the police inspector who, knowing the suspicions that would arise, treated this as a murder scene and stated catagorically that there were absolutely no evidence, DNA or otherwise, that there had anyone else at the scene.
Ignoring the pathologist's report that, pilotwolfs comment nothwithstanding, the cause of death was the cut to his left wrist.
I would like to make a couple of observations.
In reply to pulse1's question, since both his family and neighbours state he did go for a walk, the answer must be that the press did not follow him. You either have to believe that they are lying, and he was spirited away by other means, or that the press were also part of a conspiracy, but that would seem to make it a bit far fetched in either case.
Secondly, I am amused by some of the false statements and direct contradictions contained in the original article. Some examples.
-------------------------------------------------
CONTRADICTION
Things to bear in mind:
"His wrist was cut and a bottle of pain killers were found near the scene of death. These are two classic hallmarks of suicide".
Timeline of Events:
"July 19th - Police confirm that Dr. Kelly died of bleeding from his slashed left wrist. They found a knife nearby and some pain killers - the typical hallmarks of an assassination."
---------------------------------------------------
FALSEHOODS
"Dr Kelly was looking forward to enjoying his retirement next year. "
He was under investigation and had mentioned to a friend that he was concerned that he would lose not only his job, but also his pension, leaving himself, and his family, destitute.
He had also just discovered that he was suffering from an acute heart condition. he still had the electro-cardiogram pads on his chest when discovered. Hardly a man in a fit state to be looking forward to anything.
"Treason is still a capital offence in Britain".
There is no death penalty in the UK.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also find amusing how items such as the timing of the trip to Japan, agreed months before this entire affair erupted, become sudden conspiratorial decisions.
Still, it's the silly season. Where would we be without a few black helicopters buzzing around.
Ignoring the police inspector who, knowing the suspicions that would arise, treated this as a murder scene and stated catagorically that there were absolutely no evidence, DNA or otherwise, that there had anyone else at the scene.
Ignoring the pathologist's report that, pilotwolfs comment nothwithstanding, the cause of death was the cut to his left wrist.
I would like to make a couple of observations.
In reply to pulse1's question, since both his family and neighbours state he did go for a walk, the answer must be that the press did not follow him. You either have to believe that they are lying, and he was spirited away by other means, or that the press were also part of a conspiracy, but that would seem to make it a bit far fetched in either case.
Secondly, I am amused by some of the false statements and direct contradictions contained in the original article. Some examples.
-------------------------------------------------
CONTRADICTION
Things to bear in mind:
"His wrist was cut and a bottle of pain killers were found near the scene of death. These are two classic hallmarks of suicide".
Timeline of Events:
"July 19th - Police confirm that Dr. Kelly died of bleeding from his slashed left wrist. They found a knife nearby and some pain killers - the typical hallmarks of an assassination."
---------------------------------------------------
FALSEHOODS
"Dr Kelly was looking forward to enjoying his retirement next year. "
He was under investigation and had mentioned to a friend that he was concerned that he would lose not only his job, but also his pension, leaving himself, and his family, destitute.
He had also just discovered that he was suffering from an acute heart condition. he still had the electro-cardiogram pads on his chest when discovered. Hardly a man in a fit state to be looking forward to anything.
"Treason is still a capital offence in Britain".
There is no death penalty in the UK.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also find amusing how items such as the timing of the trip to Japan, agreed months before this entire affair erupted, become sudden conspiratorial decisions.
Still, it's the silly season. Where would we be without a few black helicopters buzzing around.
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I didn't imply the Psychiatrist was in on the "plot", if there was/is one, but just that one value judgement on a topic of critical importance isn't enough.
Would you take one experts opinion at face value?
I suspect some psychiatrists may offer a more reasonable opinion of "it was likely" not "well nigh certain" especially given the evidence of his reasonable state of mind prior to the alleged suicide.
Think about it.
Would you take one experts opinion at face value?
I suspect some psychiatrists may offer a more reasonable opinion of "it was likely" not "well nigh certain" especially given the evidence of his reasonable state of mind prior to the alleged suicide.
Think about it.
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Falsehoods ?
ORAC
"There is no death penalty in the UK"
I seem to recall that "Arson in HM Dockyards" is still on the books as a capital offense. Or is that just ar$ing about??
"There is no death penalty in the UK"
I seem to recall that "Arson in HM Dockyards" is still on the books as a capital offense. Or is that just ar$ing about??
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WOW! REALLY HE WAS MURDERED? Its a bit like Military grade Anthrax to scare the US Public into a war against terrorism .....would that really happen....hmmmmmm
Last edited by dopeonarope; 6th Sep 2003 at 01:27.
ORAC,
That was produced before the Paramedics were examined by Lord Hutton.
The paramedics' evidence is here - the key bits being:
" A. I unbuttoned the shirt as my colleague was putting the
electrodes on, and moved the right arm up so we could
get the electrode down the bottom.
Q. And once the electrodes had been put on was any activity
noticed?
A. No, no. It was just -- no output or anything.
Q. And what about -- was there any heart activity or
anything like that?
A. No, nothing.
.... [further chunk of evidence]
Q. When you left were the electrodes still on the body or
had they been taken off?
A. No, we left the electrodes on, just removed the wires.
Q. Was there any reason for that?
A. We just -- we always just leave them on."
That was produced before the Paramedics were examined by Lord Hutton.
The paramedics' evidence is here - the key bits being:
" A. I unbuttoned the shirt as my colleague was putting the
electrodes on, and moved the right arm up so we could
get the electrode down the bottom.
Q. And once the electrodes had been put on was any activity
noticed?
A. No, no. It was just -- no output or anything.
Q. And what about -- was there any heart activity or
anything like that?
A. No, nothing.
.... [further chunk of evidence]
Q. When you left were the electrodes still on the body or
had they been taken off?
A. No, we left the electrodes on, just removed the wires.
Q. Was there any reason for that?
A. We just -- we always just leave them on."
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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KMH
There is NO death penalty available in the UK for ANYTHING. The final offences governing capital punishment were removed about 10 years ago.
The same principle applies throughout the EU. The death penalty is incompatible with EU membership. No one can be extradited from an EU country if he/she is to face the death penalty in the country requesting extradition.
There is NO death penalty available in the UK for ANYTHING. The final offences governing capital punishment were removed about 10 years ago.
The same principle applies throughout the EU. The death penalty is incompatible with EU membership. No one can be extradited from an EU country if he/she is to face the death penalty in the country requesting extradition.
I heard a psychiatrist discuss the case on Radio 4 (I think), he said in his experience people commit suicide when they feel they have failed to live up to the standards they set themselves.
Although to be honest there have been a number of strange suicides in the defence field over the last 10-15 years, eg - Marconi Underwater systems experienced a number of "odd" suicides
http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/secdeat2.htm
and
http://www.mysteries.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/4,7.htm
I have a number of friends in the computer industry - several were offered contracts with GEC-Marconi underwater systems and they turned them down despite the hefty wads of cash on the table.
Although to be honest there have been a number of strange suicides in the defence field over the last 10-15 years, eg - Marconi Underwater systems experienced a number of "odd" suicides
http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/secdeat2.htm
and
http://www.mysteries.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/4,7.htm
I have a number of friends in the computer industry - several were offered contracts with GEC-Marconi underwater systems and they turned them down despite the hefty wads of cash on the table.
It has been revealed in the media that fatal toxic poisons had been developed by 'an intelligence agency' which could be administered by being applied to clothing. Hence any coverall or other article of clothing worn by scientists could be 'got at' by hostile agents when being laundered or whatever - and the poison would eventually cause the victim to die of a heart attack or sudden illness.
One country which allegedly had such a program now has a radically different government. But one of the disaffected members of the programme could easily have supplied material to national agencies which wouldn't exactly welcome British success in underwater detection techniques......
One country which allegedly had such a program now has a radically different government. But one of the disaffected members of the programme could easily have supplied material to national agencies which wouldn't exactly welcome British success in underwater detection techniques......
Last edited by BEagle; 6th Sep 2003 at 16:14.
Join Date: May 2003
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An intriguing who dunnit theory that smacks of credibility.
However;
White phospherous hides the real question - Were we misled into going to war by threat of WMD that could be deployed in 45 minutes?
I believe we were and that lord Hutton's enquiry puts to test the robustness of our democracy.
FEBA
However;
White phospherous hides the real question - Were we misled into going to war by threat of WMD that could be deployed in 45 minutes?
I believe we were and that lord Hutton's enquiry puts to test the robustness of our democracy.
FEBA