Dr Kelly was murdered
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Everyone knows that Dr Kelly was rubbed out by 'dark forces'. Its about time this Government stopped behaving like the Americans and owned up! I'm still waiting for the 'evidence' of WMD that Tony Bliar promised to tell us all earlier this year.
This is Great Britain don't ya know!
This is Great Britain don't ya know!
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Who said conspiracy?
People have been sniffing the AVTUR again - anyone who has spent any length of time in the 'corridors of confusion' will know that conspiracies just don't work.
Dr Kelly stepped outside the cosy world of off-the-record chats with journos and spoke about extremely sensitive issues when he was not authorised to do so. Although clearly a man of conviction, he knew the rules about the release of information - and even though time, and the Hutton enquiry - may vindicate those actions, he placed himself under an enormous amount of pressure, regretfully assisted by the release of his name into the public domain. None of us can acurately determine his state of mind on that fateful afternoon however anyone who has faced a GCM, or indeed has awaited the outcome of a 1021 or the curious 1074 will know what it is to shake with fear. He may have felt that he brought this on himself (which, in part, is true) but we will never know.
As to being rubbed out by one of the agencies, come off it! As several commentators have noted, the real issue is the probity of the Government. Pity a few Ministers didn't do the decent thing with the Mess revolver.
Dr Kelly stepped outside the cosy world of off-the-record chats with journos and spoke about extremely sensitive issues when he was not authorised to do so. Although clearly a man of conviction, he knew the rules about the release of information - and even though time, and the Hutton enquiry - may vindicate those actions, he placed himself under an enormous amount of pressure, regretfully assisted by the release of his name into the public domain. None of us can acurately determine his state of mind on that fateful afternoon however anyone who has faced a GCM, or indeed has awaited the outcome of a 1021 or the curious 1074 will know what it is to shake with fear. He may have felt that he brought this on himself (which, in part, is true) but we will never know.
As to being rubbed out by one of the agencies, come off it! As several commentators have noted, the real issue is the probity of the Government. Pity a few Ministers didn't do the decent thing with the Mess revolver.
My understanding is that Kelly's job description included the provision of OTR NA background briefings to journalists.
If Kelly spoke about militarily sensitive issues, most of us would be inclined to believe that he 'had it coming'. Damaging or revealing weaknesses relating the defence of this country could not be condoned.
But he seems to have spoken about politically sensitive issues, which seems very much less serious, and which may even deserve sympathy - since he could have been seen to have been acting in the public interest. Damaging or revealing weaknesses relating to the credibility of Tony and the Labour Party doesn't seem like a hanging matter.
As FEBA inferred, the real issue, highlighted by Gilligan, is: "Were we misled into going to war by threat of WMD that could be deployed in 45 minutes?"
Anything else is smoke and mirrors.
If Kelly spoke about militarily sensitive issues, most of us would be inclined to believe that he 'had it coming'. Damaging or revealing weaknesses relating the defence of this country could not be condoned.
But he seems to have spoken about politically sensitive issues, which seems very much less serious, and which may even deserve sympathy - since he could have been seen to have been acting in the public interest. Damaging or revealing weaknesses relating to the credibility of Tony and the Labour Party doesn't seem like a hanging matter.
As FEBA inferred, the real issue, highlighted by Gilligan, is: "Were we misled into going to war by threat of WMD that could be deployed in 45 minutes?"
Anything else is smoke and mirrors.
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Euro Crash
I have difficulty agreeing with your post. Dr Kelly's job was to brief the press, I'm sure that his ROE were clearly defined in the job description.
It would appear that Dr Kelly, a reasoned and rational man, was plagued by his conscience and I'm sure it was this that forced him to step outside of his terms of reference.
So a question for you; if someone as clear thinking as Dr kelly who would be well aware of the consequences of his actions, go to the press (BBC) with information likely to bring down a government, if he thought it would result in the loss of his life?
I would have thought that he would be more likely to take his life if he was responsible for duping a nation into war rather than take it because he was a whistle blower.
FEBA
I have difficulty agreeing with your post. Dr Kelly's job was to brief the press, I'm sure that his ROE were clearly defined in the job description.
It would appear that Dr Kelly, a reasoned and rational man, was plagued by his conscience and I'm sure it was this that forced him to step outside of his terms of reference.
So a question for you; if someone as clear thinking as Dr kelly who would be well aware of the consequences of his actions, go to the press (BBC) with information likely to bring down a government, if he thought it would result in the loss of his life?
I would have thought that he would be more likely to take his life if he was responsible for duping a nation into war rather than take it because he was a whistle blower.
FEBA
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I would have thought that he would be more likely to take his life if he was responsible for duping a nation into war rather than take it because he was a whistle blower.
I dont know whether it was wetwork or not but I do know that Dr Kelly R.I.P. was as the government admited after his death the top expert on bio-weapons in the country, that he helped put the infamous "Saddams WMD's" docet together and that he was the only man who could go upto parliment and say which parts of it was his work and which parts of it had been altered by a certain spin docter who will remain nameless and who was acting under orders from his boss who will also remain nameless.
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A Civvie
Actually it's one concept as they are both directly related. The threat of the existance of WMD and their deployment within 45 minutes was used to dupe the nation into war. Dr Kelly new this to be false on both counts.
If you know the names of these nameless persons, wouldn't it be a good idea reveal what you know in this thread.
It is possible that British lives have been needlessly lost in Iraq, many of them by FF. If they were my kids, I'd want to know why and see that those responsible leave politics post haste.
Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori ?
FEBA
WMD's were not used to begin this war, it was used as a pretext for begining this war. Thats two very different concepts.
If you know the names of these nameless persons, wouldn't it be a good idea reveal what you know in this thread.
It is possible that British lives have been needlessly lost in Iraq, many of them by FF. If they were my kids, I'd want to know why and see that those responsible leave politics post haste.
Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori ?
FEBA
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
FEBA,
Far from "knowing" the existence of WMD to be false, Dr Kelly was totally convinced of their existence and believed that regime change in Iraq was the only way to achieve their destruction. The following testimony was given by his immediate family at the inquiry. I see no reason to believe they lied.
The Times
Mrs Pape described how he had converted her, her husband and their younger brother from sceptics to supporters of the Iraq war by the force of his own reluctant but firm belief in it. “We realised that each of us changed our minds before the war itself . . . (due to) individual conversations that we had with my brother,” she said, giving evidence in person yesterday.
“I thought he would agree with me that there was no need for war . . . I was very surprised when he was absolutely and utterly convinced there was almost certainly no solution other than a regime change, which was unlikely to happen peaceably and regrettably would require military action to enforce it,” she said.
“He had absolutely no doubt at all that unless there was a complete change of heart in Iraq or change of regime, that they would have to be forcibly disarmed of their potential to produce weapons of mass destruction.”
Later she told of her brother’s eagerness to return to his weapons monitoring task. “He was absolutely convinced they were buried in the sand, in the desert somewhere . . . he desperately wanted to go back to Iraq to finish the job.”
Far from "knowing" the existence of WMD to be false, Dr Kelly was totally convinced of their existence and believed that regime change in Iraq was the only way to achieve their destruction. The following testimony was given by his immediate family at the inquiry. I see no reason to believe they lied.
The Times
Mrs Pape described how he had converted her, her husband and their younger brother from sceptics to supporters of the Iraq war by the force of his own reluctant but firm belief in it. “We realised that each of us changed our minds before the war itself . . . (due to) individual conversations that we had with my brother,” she said, giving evidence in person yesterday.
“I thought he would agree with me that there was no need for war . . . I was very surprised when he was absolutely and utterly convinced there was almost certainly no solution other than a regime change, which was unlikely to happen peaceably and regrettably would require military action to enforce it,” she said.
“He had absolutely no doubt at all that unless there was a complete change of heart in Iraq or change of regime, that they would have to be forcibly disarmed of their potential to produce weapons of mass destruction.”
Later she told of her brother’s eagerness to return to his weapons monitoring task. “He was absolutely convinced they were buried in the sand, in the desert somewhere . . . he desperately wanted to go back to Iraq to finish the job.”
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FEBA - Dr Kelly confused his personal opinions with his role as, inter alia, a non-attributable briefer. As I said in my post, time and the Hutton Enquiry may vindicate his views however, I remember what was once said to me, many years ago, when I went to work in a secure area: 'Leave your moral indignation at the door - that is the job of the Politicians'.
Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of this whole sorry affair, it is a slippery road to travel if military personnel and civil servants openly question or attempt to undermine our political masters. To do so undermines the western principle of democratic control of the armed forces (compare with Turkey, for instance, and the uneasy role of the General Staff within the Cabinet). Politicians are accountable to the electorate and not to the military; the recent efforts of Messrs Blair and Hoon has not be lost on the voters.
Even if the Public were misled over Iraq - so what? Here was a country that had used ballistic missiles in 2 previous conflicts, had used nerve agents and other CW gainst its own people (and Iranian troops) and remained a major regional kleptographic destabiliser. War - initiated by the US - was inevitiable and the UK participation in it allows us to have a major say in regional affairs and post-conflict reconstruction. Sniping from the sidelines (vide France, Germany) would have got us precisely nowhere. The UK remains a big player - diplomatically, economically and militarily. Let's remain a force for good.
Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of this whole sorry affair, it is a slippery road to travel if military personnel and civil servants openly question or attempt to undermine our political masters. To do so undermines the western principle of democratic control of the armed forces (compare with Turkey, for instance, and the uneasy role of the General Staff within the Cabinet). Politicians are accountable to the electorate and not to the military; the recent efforts of Messrs Blair and Hoon has not be lost on the voters.
Even if the Public were misled over Iraq - so what? Here was a country that had used ballistic missiles in 2 previous conflicts, had used nerve agents and other CW gainst its own people (and Iranian troops) and remained a major regional kleptographic destabiliser. War - initiated by the US - was inevitiable and the UK participation in it allows us to have a major say in regional affairs and post-conflict reconstruction. Sniping from the sidelines (vide France, Germany) would have got us precisely nowhere. The UK remains a big player - diplomatically, economically and militarily. Let's remain a force for good.
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Euro Crash
Thank you for your post, it makes interesting reading.
You said:
And then:
You contradict yourself. Surely the true strength of a democracy, regardless of which side of the political meridian it lies, is the ability to be scrutinised and corruptness ousted. Watergate a classic example.
If sadam wishes to gas his own then that's his business and no concern of ours, other than say, diplomatic protest at the UN.
If sadam threatens our industrial infrastructure by turning off the oil tap; we go and beat him up.
If sadam lets off nerve agents in piddle Hinton; we go and beat him up.
Sorry to be simplistic, often the most complicated matters are in the end, but none of the above happened. So why were we there and why were we encouraged to send our forces to war on claims that so deeply troubled Dr kelly? And why did the chiefs of staff doubt the legality of war with Iraq? Where are the WMD and why has all talk of them faded into the politcal ether?
Fancy debating this over a pint.
FEBA
Thank you for your post, it makes interesting reading.
You said:
To do so undermines the western principle of democratic control of the armed forces
Even if the Public were misled over Iraq - so what?
If sadam wishes to gas his own then that's his business and no concern of ours, other than say, diplomatic protest at the UN.
If sadam threatens our industrial infrastructure by turning off the oil tap; we go and beat him up.
If sadam lets off nerve agents in piddle Hinton; we go and beat him up.
Sorry to be simplistic, often the most complicated matters are in the end, but none of the above happened. So why were we there and why were we encouraged to send our forces to war on claims that so deeply troubled Dr kelly? And why did the chiefs of staff doubt the legality of war with Iraq? Where are the WMD and why has all talk of them faded into the politcal ether?
Fancy debating this over a pint.
FEBA
Last edited by FEBA; 11th Sep 2003 at 22:59.
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Now that a war has happened, the issue of the presence of WMD is largely irrelevant however the issue remaining is whether there was 'intent to deceive' or mens rea.
Yes - I would enjoy being the Devil's Advocate in this case - debating over a chilled glass of Limocella, perhaps.
Cin cin
Crash
Yes - I would enjoy being the Devil's Advocate in this case - debating over a chilled glass of Limocella, perhaps.
Cin cin
Crash
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
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It is all a smokescreen!
Does nobody round here feel that it is amazing how quickly the government organised this public enquiry into the Kelly situation when it normally takes months to get an enquiry moving?
It is amazing that all these people, including ministers and Blair himself were suddenly available for this enquiry at short notice.
It is amazing that ministers are not available to meet bodies of servicemen killed in Iraq such as the RAF policeman who was flown back, stuffed in a hearse and driven to Scotland without so much as a local MP to pay respects to the coffin as it was brought off the plane (according to a local source)
This is a very convenient smokescreen for the government, whilst the press have a Kelly related feeding frenzy no one is paying attention to the increasingly crappy aftermath of George & Tony's foreign policy.
It is amazing that all these people, including ministers and Blair himself were suddenly available for this enquiry at short notice.
It is amazing that ministers are not available to meet bodies of servicemen killed in Iraq such as the RAF policeman who was flown back, stuffed in a hearse and driven to Scotland without so much as a local MP to pay respects to the coffin as it was brought off the plane (according to a local source)
This is a very convenient smokescreen for the government, whilst the press have a Kelly related feeding frenzy no one is paying attention to the increasingly crappy aftermath of George & Tony's foreign policy.
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Euro crash
The issue of WMD may be irrelevant to you but it wont be irrelevant to those that have lost sons, daughters, husbands and wives, if it turns out that we had no reason to be in Iraq other than a burning desire by the PM to support the US and boulster a weak president.
If limocella is an italian wine count me out. Mine's a pint of London pride. I shall be in the Willerby Arms at Leadenham tonight 1830 onwards. I'm the tall bloke trying to grow a tash.
FEBA
The issue of WMD may be irrelevant to you but it wont be irrelevant to those that have lost sons, daughters, husbands and wives, if it turns out that we had no reason to be in Iraq other than a burning desire by the PM to support the US and boulster a weak president.
If limocella is an italian wine count me out. Mine's a pint of London pride. I shall be in the Willerby Arms at Leadenham tonight 1830 onwards. I'm the tall bloke trying to grow a tash.
FEBA
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I did a 6 month Armilla Patrol ending in march 2000. We spent a great deal of time in the North Arabian Gulf. Not once we were required, at any time, to have the ship at any higher level of preparedness for a chemical/biological attack then the normal peacetime cruising state. During that time I saw the Al Faw penisular with my own eyes from the bridge of the ship (albeit it night, with night vision equipment) on more then one occasion, and I add from outside Iraqs territorial waters.
I also participated in the major exercise off Oman in Oct 2001. This is now seen by many as a "dress rehearsal" for the invasion of Iraq. At no time did we exercise the chemical threat.
From that I can conclude that in March 2000 Iraq did not have any WMD that could be deployed in 45 mins if it did I would have been required to have my respirator by my side for most of the deployment. By March 2003, the Government of the United Kingdom had stated that Iraq had the capability to launch a WMD attack in 45 mins. Given that the process of UN inspectors being sent back to Iraq began in Sep 2002, and that if he did indeed have any WMD it is about at this time he would have began hiding them, that gives Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi regime approximately 30 months to develop a chemical/biological WMD capability that could be used at 45 minutes notice.
Now I am far from an expert on chem/bio/WMD - but it seems highly unlikely that such a capability could have been developed so quickly.
I also participated in the major exercise off Oman in Oct 2001. This is now seen by many as a "dress rehearsal" for the invasion of Iraq. At no time did we exercise the chemical threat.
From that I can conclude that in March 2000 Iraq did not have any WMD that could be deployed in 45 mins if it did I would have been required to have my respirator by my side for most of the deployment. By March 2003, the Government of the United Kingdom had stated that Iraq had the capability to launch a WMD attack in 45 mins. Given that the process of UN inspectors being sent back to Iraq began in Sep 2002, and that if he did indeed have any WMD it is about at this time he would have began hiding them, that gives Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi regime approximately 30 months to develop a chemical/biological WMD capability that could be used at 45 minutes notice.
Now I am far from an expert on chem/bio/WMD - but it seems highly unlikely that such a capability could have been developed so quickly.
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Message to Miss Caplin
What was the real reason for going to war with Iraq and why didn't you personally involve yourself with the unfashionable desert combat uniform our boys had/have to wear out there?
FEBA
What was the real reason for going to war with Iraq and why didn't you personally involve yourself with the unfashionable desert combat uniform our boys had/have to wear out there?
FEBA
timzsta,
As one who was in the region - on the ground and in the air - for protracted periods from Feb 98 to Feb 02 I can assure you that we were aware of a higher threat than you, and were from time subjected to a gentle stroll to the bunkers when uncle Saddam threw some unknown hardware at us. Picture if you will 200 peaple trying to get in a shelter designed for 20.
We always thought those afloat had a different understanding of what was going on!!!! - or not.
Now safely in blighty but still have sand in parts I didn't know I had)
As one who was in the region - on the ground and in the air - for protracted periods from Feb 98 to Feb 02 I can assure you that we were aware of a higher threat than you, and were from time subjected to a gentle stroll to the bunkers when uncle Saddam threw some unknown hardware at us. Picture if you will 200 peaple trying to get in a shelter designed for 20.
We always thought those afloat had a different understanding of what was going on!!!! - or not.
Now safely in blighty but still have sand in parts I didn't know I had)
