Things are pretty green in my pasture. Not perfect but green enough. Might even be a little greener before too long!

I have no idea about the no shows, but if 107 is true, then that is shocking.

I do know from a colleague who went thru the resigning interview, that 60 pilots had resigned in 2005. This was after great efforts on his part to ascertain this info from the interviewer. Whether the information given was accurate is definitely debatable but in all likelihood, if anything, it was understated.

As for doing a runner, I don't believe that is a good idea. It might open some eyes back in Dubai, which might benefit those of us remaining, but I still believe that it is an unwise move. One would really have to be unfairly treated to be justified in those regards, IMHO.

I cant say too much on here but there is a secret underground organisation to smuggle EK pilots off the roster downroute. In return all that is asked is that you sign an affadavit stating that all that bolox about wanting a better lifestyle and who cares what seat i'm in was a cover for the real reason. An egotistical maneuvere to shortcut to a widebody command that went pear shaped.A job will be provided but only on the types on your real licence but no moaning about a night corfu is allowed.
If you sit alone on the right hand seat of the bar of the meridien at lgw with no cabin crew or colleagues to socialise with, you will be approached.

Keep Dissappearing.

Ps the no shows will decrease now that all you need to pass selection is some dodgy 737-200 time, a dodgy icao licence and a white(ish) skin. One mans hell is amnothers nirvarna.

Very good!! :D

But it is not all about the command. The airline is still showing upgrade times to be just over three years, still better than anywhere else, but is it all about commands, money etc? There is too much info here on Emirates for me to even contemplate adding to it but life in Dubai has changed. The so called 'lifestyle' that we enjoyed in Dubai has gone. There are no beaches to camp on anymore, they are building sites now. The quick drive to the local supermarket needs to be timed carefully otherwise you end up in traffic for an hour. 7 star hotels are passé, there's almost one on every corner now. Too many malls, too many records being broken, for some this place has lost the plot.

I am all for progress and change but cannot see any evidence to suggest that Dubai has done nothing other than become another Singapore or Hong Kong, and for many of us if we wanted to live in either place we'd have applied for SQ or CX.

There is too much concrete, not enough greenery (yes I know, It's a desert!) but they can have grass where and when they want it, primarily on the golf courses, but more expenditure on public areas would be welcome.

I could go on and on, but basically those that have left, or are thinking of leaving, are not happy here, despite the management spin on reasons given for leaving. After all, who would honestly say in their departure interview that they were sick of the changes, the lies, the lack of support and the overwork ethic that exists? Nobobody wants to burn bridges so it's just easier to say 'I want to go home....' If the management and HR want to propogate otherwise then that's fine, we're not stupid. Many are not happy here and that is why they leave.

Ahad,

I am not sure I agree with your figures. I get copied in on recruitment status forms and the no shows you talk about are no where near the figure you quote. As far as resignations go, cant say I agree with that figure either. 2005 has been a busy year with lots happening. As has been stated before here, do you know the 37 pilots that have left. I dont think I can name 20.

The thing is there is no where else to go really. If you said that figure over an 18 month to 2 year period, I think I would agree. Lets face it though. The company more than doubled in size since I joined. It means now that there are more people pro rata to be disgruntled. I would like to think that with the appointment of the new recruitment manager, things might start to change. Not sure if you saw the latest FCN inviting pilots back onto the recruitment team. About time too. Very unhealthy with just an HR input in pilot recruitment. We seem to be getting some really nice guys, but the standard of some of their flying is shocking to say the least. The standard has definitely dropped. Or maybe now the bucket is starting to empty.

Prepare for several things. Firstly back to transition upgrades, secondly they will lower the standard of applicants experience. By that I mean take guys without Heavy jet time. Lets face it we have cadets who are on line now with 500 hours. The guys will join now with maybe turbo prop time (1000 hours) Thats just a figure I have thought of. The new pilot will then be "Emiratized" with no chance of a command for lets say 5 years. I think the standard will be good. Lets face it I remember most of the jet guys here went from a turbo prop to a jet. Whats the difference between say a B757/767 to a 330/777. Especially when there is a cadet programme here with guys having flown small aircraft being put on large aircraft. With the right training it is totally workable.

Finally the long awaited pay rise. Etihad are down the road now with a large pay rise looming. We are all mercenaries really and whoever pays the most gets the pilots. The bucket here is nearly empty and having taken 9 B777's this year, 12 next year plus extra 340's coming. 2007 will be the 380's turn. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to work out that pilots are desperatley needed. Something has to give. The question is what and where !!

Uplink, may I be so bold as to quote you....

As you seem intent on being a provider of factual, rather than rumoured occurrences, I certainly hope you are right. Your reputation as being a more moderate and balanced contributor rests on the outcome of your prophecies!

;)

Uplink

Good post man.

Is it true that transition upgrades are approved, but not implemented due to man power shortage?

... well, just to contribute my views ...
last week, we had a cometogether of pilots, as one of the F/Os was leavin after 4 years for "personal reasons" (most likely s'thing went wrong with his upgrade - so, don't take that for granted though!) - and gave us a higly appreciated farewell down at a nice S-Z Road Pub ....

What worries me, that during the casual talk, i realized, that more than half of the bunch of guys (mostly F/Os) are fairely unhappy here - especially due to their very low income at EK - which is somewhere araound 18.000 Dhm /equals 4.900 U$ only!! - which is definitily NOT enough to cope with the spiralling living costs here; most of them can't save a penny of their salaries, as they struggle to pay their mortgages/ installments etc. back home;

consequently, a good percentage of those guys are planning to leave, as soon as their bond is finshed, as there are definitivley more and more opportunities opening up in the "old world"- with about the same salary, but in a civilized and slavery-free society;

To sum it up: Yes, the conditions down here have definitively deteriorated over the last years, building sites, concrete and dirt all over the place - the Jumeira Beach road a dirty building site since month now, the only park in BurDubai - including the palms ! - "taken out", to give way to the new (much needed!) railway station ...
Thus means, even less greenery downtown, and the housing and living costs still spiralling upwards!

It's time to move on, if we don't get a significantly payrise soon(> 20 % is considered to be a MINIMUM to be expected to keep the folks on the run - like Ethihad - which m ight help to compensate the lower life quality down here at the sandpit; My CV is on my computer already

:ok: :yuk:

If all goes well I will be out of here soon.......

My family and I can't wait;)

Two interviews this year, offered both jobs and will be handing my notice in during February. I have had enough and am happy to leave. I will not be telling them lies at my departure interview, I will tell them exactly what I think, they deserve nothing less.

Dissapointed,

Good luck to you mate and well done on the other jobs. However, dont get too excited about the departure interview. Your "flight ops managers" and I use that term very loosely, plus your respective CP wont want anything to do with you. The interview will be conducted in a subdivided room, possibly your chair will be hanging out in the hallway and "interviewed" by some low grade HR admin clerk that continues to scribble in a book and nods every 10sec supposedly in total agreement with your spoken word. Now, we must ask ourselves. Has the 20 odd brothers that have left over the last year and gone through the same procedure made them change in any way. ???

I left this year and wasted an hour of my life doing the exit interview.

I watched what the HR underling was writing and it bore absolutely no resemblance to what I was saying - when I challenged him I was told it was being translated into 'management speak' to make it more readable - what he was actually doing was removing anything even vaguely negative about the company and particularly the managers.

When I asked what they did with the reports I was told they were collated and presented to management on a quarterly basis. Obviously so they can ignore them all at once!!

Still have absolutely no regrets over leaving...:O

Secure,

Very kind of you to quote me. I only say things as I see them at the time. You know as well as I do that things change overnight. What is stated on reports may only be what we are meant to see, who knows.

I consider my self as you say, a balanced contributor. I try not to get involved in the speculation too much as I have been in this game too long. I try not to get excited by rumours but prefer the evidence as and when it happens.

The original thread was concerning how to get out of EK. Most people have the right idea about leaving in a correct manner. I dont think that jumping ship in the middle of the night is a good idea, as these things have a habit of creeping up on you. Not in a few months but a few years.

The Captain who left EK a short while ago has left a family and a huge debt for her to sort out. What a spineless prat for doing that. EK is a better place not having a unstable guy like that around. I only hope he gets what he deserves, because one dark night he may find himself in Dubai for whatever reason. I think a person who absconds in that manner does not want to continue his career in aviation. To leave and not pay a bond is one thing. To leave and not pay your debts I do not think is a good idea, but that is just my opinion. To leave your whole family to clear up your mess is just pure evil. Guys like that should be in prison. I know alot more about this gentleman which I am not going to put on here. I will say this though. You join a company and have a bond (which lets face it is only fair) Should you leave in whatever manner you choose then you have to face the music should it catch up with you a few years down the line. But then again thats just my opinion.

Of course you do, who doesn't?
However when you comment and fail to point out the constant changes in T&C's, the fulcrum appears to be a little offset.
You don't receive management information without being part of the team. In this organisation you need to sell your soul, morals and integrity to be part of THAT team.

RUSerious


I was of the understanding that the bond covered only your training. Unless you have signed a further bond for blood, sweat and tears.

I mentioned nothing about T&C's. Separate issue?

Sanddancer U have lost 1 hour on your exit interview?:confused:
What should I say...I've lost only 10 minutes when the HR j@@@k suggested me to sign the resignation from my previous Company within 5 minutes 'cause He was busy with a meeting:yuk: :yuk:

A bond is NEVER fair and should be abolished! Nothing more than a company using artificial means to keep you in one place.

I never said a bond was fair but on the other hand if you invested the thousands of dollars it costs to train me and after 6 months with virtually zero productivity I walked out. Would you be happy?

The fairness or otherwise of the Bond depends on the type rating you came here with and the type your on. Unfortunatley a guy who arrived with say an EMB145 pencil jet rating and got a 777 or 330 type has the same bond as a guy who joined with an a330 or 777 rating and is on the same type. Unless of course your a DEC whereupon the bond is dropped by 2/3s to 12000 USD as opposed to $36,000 for everybody else if you came rated.

The bond is only fair if the company expended that or greater on you to train you. In most cases the $12000 would be more realistic. But if you needed the job at the time they had you by the balls. Now they will lick your nuts to get you to join.

Anyway counting the weeks to a course back in civilisation. No bond as already rated, no thanks to EK.

Lots of tax of course and I have to live in my own house with no threat of being moved out and having my life turned upside down by some TCN administrator who would have no problem if they moved you to a shanty town in down town Madras over 6000 Dhs.

I guess this should be my last post on EK and purge any referance from my PC. A sort of New year resolution.


Adios

Uplink you are right that the company spends money on you to train you. But I got news for you, that is the cost of doing business and all companies have to put up with that costs. Pay industry standard rates and treat your employees right and the company with have virtually a zero percent attrition rate. As I said before the bond is border line illeagal IMHO. You can not keep someone in "bondage."

Bugger it, I knew I joined years before I should have. Maybe the next job.

I am not saying I agree with a bond, merely that I understand why they do it. I agree that if you come with a type rating there should be no bond. Show me a major airline that doesnt bond.

As far as a bond being borderline illegal, I cannot say because I am not a lawyer. I have been bonded 4 times in my life. One bond in my early career was deducted from my salary each month over a 2 year period. If you then stayed an extra year they would give you all the bond money back. Of course no one would stay that long. My first bond was for a Navajo of all things. This was when jobs were very scarce. I satyed 2 months and they kept half of my monthly 6500 gbp pa salary. I cant rememebr how much but the pay was crap anyway. My 3rd bond was with a charter airline. It was for 5500 gbp over 2 years. It was fair as it was my first jet job. This bond now has come and gone.

I guess if I didnt want to stay then it would have been a gross inconvienience to me. As far as being fair, well I have had my share of bonds. It hasnt affected me because I have never been in the position of wanting to leave the company prior to my bond being paid off. I know my last company actually would not take any pilot unless his bond was cleared or agreed on. So I guess walking away from paying a bond is not good as it could jeopordize your career.

Is it ethical.......... probably not.

Bonds
 

I came from the US, and there is no such thing as being bonded to go to work for a company.
Just because all of the other companies do it (bonding) it is an isue that is odd to say the least.

I do not understand that this issue is looked upon as normal.
What other worker gets bonded for training to operate a piece of company equipment?

And furthur more, why do we as pilots accept this as normal?

I am new to the ex-pat lifestyle, but I think that to be "paying for instruction" to operate a piece of equipment that is owned and operated by someone else for their benifit is ludicrious.

I do not care how you put this issue, but plain and simple it sucks, to say the least.

I also agree with the statement from a few replies earlier, that it is just a cost of doing business that should be borne by the company, and not the employee.

If he is paid well and treated fairly, there would be no fear of him leaving in the first place.

OK let the rest of you say your part...pro or con

Pita

.... well "Uplink" - You're Way OFF man with your statement:

"Show me a major airline that doesn't bond"

O.K. There basically ALL the major North-American, Canadian, plus all the Big European operators - the likes of Air France, Alitalia, Lufthansa, Austrian, Iberia (as far as I know), KLM, SAS, Air Atlanta, BA (when i last spoke to my Ex-colleagues there) - just to name a few - and so on ...

To sum it up: Almost all the "decent airlines / Flagcarriers", who haven't to worry, that their pilots run for greener grass, just don't bond! Just simply due to the Fact, that they don't have to! Apparantly EK however has to worry (for good reasons!) that too many might leave, if they don't tie them up - due to the massively erosion of our conditions and payments over the last years! For example many of us have to work this year over x-mas AND New Year - No chance to get home and meet family and friends- That sucks!

And as i stated in the other thread: "EK-how to make a runner"
more and more will leave the sandpit, as the money and the conditions are not to appealing any more, and more positions coming up in the old, civilzed world! You bet!:E:{

Cyberbird
 

There certainly are a lot of problems at EK, but you can hardly call having to work over christmas and new year one of them.

The aircraft have to fly. Someone has to fly them. I'm sorry that it is your turn this year. I'm sure it will be mine next year.

Cyber,

I will take your word for it. I have never bothered to look whether the other major airlines bond or not. The fact still stand though that in EK they bond.

I am not saying I approve but there is an option. You got the contract with the bond attached. So it was actually up to you whether to sign or not. If you are from Canada or the US and by the way you write (Hey Man !) I guess one of those, you have come from a place where there is no bonding. But you came here knowing there was a bond and you signed the bond. That with the knowledge that you didnt approve of it but wanted the job anyway. Sounds strange to me.

I feel very sorry for the guys who have signed bonds and dont want to be here anymore. I dont know what to suggest. I am fortunate to still like it here and like my job, but then I have no where else to go as it is all the same. By the way SQ bond and that would be the only other place I would consider.

If the contract is that good and the lifestyle so great, nobody would want to leave, therefore, no need for a bond!!

...right....

Leaving EK but where to go?
 

OK, my !!!!! bucket is starting to get full (not the money one, as 9 years in the company and my finances are crap :hmm: ), but where to go???

Guys are leaving and looking, but what is out there that's better than EK? I know that's a subjective question based on what makes you happy or what you're looking for, but what jobs have guys been leaving for?

Being your typical Brit, I don't want to move much further East than Dubai, so closer to home is my best option. However, 5 days on, two off, multiple sector days doesn't sound too appealing and I know nothing about contract work.

Is commuting a better option with a larger airline? Seems pretty tiring...

Sorry to be so vague, but I'd appreciate your thoughts please

Cheers

Keith

P.S Sensible answers only please; i don't want this to be a bun fight...

Did read in The Daily Mail last month about painters and decorators charging £1200 per week............cash in hand. oh, I forgot, you don't want 5 on and two off!;)

You could try British Airways - we need another couple of hundered co-pilots over the next 18 months to two years............

hello mate,

What types have you been flying? and how much experience do you have on type?

just have a look at pilotjobnetwork for jobs, 9 years in UAE should have given you a bunch of experience

FWIW, IFALPA Recruitment Ban implemented at Dragonair, if you were Hong Kong inclined. :\

>>...IFALPA Recruitment Ban implemented at Dragonair...<<

Good grief, I suppose the boys in HKG just can't get along.
Shades of CX...all over again.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

IFALPO hypocrites at it again huh? Throw away career opportunities in support of those who wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire???:mad: :rolleyes:

Thanks for the serious replies;

ETOPS: I really want my cake and eat it. Going to BA as an FO would be a little step rearwards.:uhoh:

Dragonair: East of DXB I'm afraid, so no good for me.

So, with over 400 viewings, I'm surprised no one else has posted. Is it a fair thing to say that there really isn't anything better out there?

Anyhow, thanks for those that posted

Regards

Keith.

Keith
An interestng point indeed with so many viewings and so few practical responses...

Makes one wonder perhaps there is not that many options out there for you West of here and East of the Queens Country....

Would be great if the sarcasm could be kept at bay on this link and see what credible responses those in the know can offer....

:E

Could be that no one wants to give up a potential job to one so experienced. Like the others, Ill tell you after I have the job!
However not alot to do closer to home unless you like pulling gear several times a day. Good luck though.
Once we see what the profits are in a month, and his Highness decides to share, Maybe we'll all get a little more of the pie this year?
Yah, I knew that would make you laugh!

EK
 

You can try Korean Air, they are currently looking for Capts, you can chose the base, either LHR,CDG or FRA in EU

The pay is US$12.000/month, good luck!

All you unhappy Emirates boys should go Corporate!!That where the future is, you will be appreciated for the skills you have, and you wont be doing 900 hours a year, while your Jumeirah jane roots her tennis/golf coach.

... Is that you holerspolers4 ?