Guys your surely not surprised by Canadian pilots landing short of fuel, I mean at least these guys had some in the tanks!

I've worked with a quite a few Canadians some very good and some very bad, and quite liberal with the legal stuff.

lhr, where can I find the info wrt not leaving DXB in discretion I would really like to see that on paper

unable, funny thing I've flown with some really good and some really bad guys from the UK so does that that make the Canadians tha same as the Brits

If you would look at the postings you would find that I did not compare good and bad Canadian pilots. I did however say that I wish the Canadians had a little backbone every now and again. Just because they tripled their salary by coming to EK is no reason to fly over 18 hours just to get to NY and land on fumes.
I don't know where the discretion rules are spelled out but is it common sense not to leave your home base knowing you are going to over the duty time limit? And 18 hours to boot! What was so important that those Canadians had to go to NY?
Answer to your question is yes there are good and bad UK pilots as well.

"Commit to destination" - not rocket science really is it chaps??

LHR rain - you got some serious issues matey;) ;)

LHR

funny I just looked at the crewlist for the flight in question and other than the one Canadian I can see of the four, I do know the other skipper was a former Trainer, a very competant pilot and certainly not from across the other side of the Atlantic.

18 hours is a little ridiculous and having not flown the JFK run for more than a year now, I seem to recall that max duty day has always been a very grey area with the LR Ops.

I do remember every flight that left DXB for JFK was in discretion before you even left the gate, the window for 3 crew was only 20 minutes.

As far as landing on fumes go, what happened did they end up on another NAT Track at the wrong level, we all know that never happens, extensive holding in the terminal area, never happens. Could they have exercised their option to "commit to destination" as per the fuel policy, only they know for sure.

As far as back-bone goes there are many of the Canadians who are far more vocal than you may realize, only it is done directly to the people involved and not here.

Nothing to do with the original post I know but just a couple of Fils worth


Take care

Dooner

Just a thought

4 pilots

FOM annex 5, page 72 para. 7.2....

Dooner!
As always the voice of reason...seems that the only way to find the facts is to actually look for them, 'cause if you listen to the "rainman" you won't find any!
Cheers and hope to run into you out there one day
LC

Let's squash this thing about dispatching into discretion. It's perfectly legal. See FOM, Chap 21 Pg 35 para 18.1. I agree with Menard in that if they went to JFK with 4 pilots it would be reasonable to invoke Annex 5 to the FTL. So long as they complied with all the requirements and departed by 1200 local then discretion is not a player.

Have a nice day

EH

Been here for quite a few years now and been into disgression only once, and that was due to an unserviceablility down route. By the way, the Commander can only use his disgression to extend an FDP due to an UNFORESEEN DELAY. A flight that cannot be completed within the allowable FDP, because the flight time is simply too long, has been illegally planned. (FOM Chap 21 Page 5 para 2.2). That's why you saw that undignified scrambling around at late notice to use Annex 2 DUBAI(1) to get flights back from Shanghai when they changed from winter to summer schedule and dropped the 3rd pilot. If the captain was allowed to use disgression in this case they would simply have gone for that. The Company relies a lot on pilots not understanding the FTL and luckily for them a significant number don't. I think it is no coincidence that the interpretive notes in para 18 "Aircraft Commander's Discretion to Extend a Flying Duty Period", still say
"Guidelines - Detailed Guidance to be Added", and have done for over a year.

Vot to do??

Are you telling me that the F/O or other crew members ave no choice about extending their duty day? It is all up to the Skipper?
:confused:

FTLS are still a mess in EK
 

I have to agree that the whole FTL in EK are a mess(deliberatly) with the issue of Discretion and Variations that are applied by our airline.

The end result no one knows whats going on...

The Shanghai example listed above was difficult to understand, as the company told us in an email that it would depend on the actual flight planned time on the day if the variation would be applied....funny I allways thought that the variation was applied to the Sked times but comercial reality dictated otherwise in that case.

Its sobering to remember that Emirates do not issue our Flight Crew Licence (GCAA do) at the end of the day we have to answer to the GCAA not to Emirates for any FTL excursions.

Mr Limbo,

I understand English is not your first language, but perhaps you could read the reference: "An aircraft Commander may,at his discretion, AND AFTER TAKING NOTE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF OTHER MEMBERS OF THE CREW, extend an FDP beyond that permitted in paragragh 13, Tables A or B, provided he is satisfied that the flight can be made safely". It is the Commander's decision, but he should check that the rest of the team are up for it. He would be very unwise to proceed if they were not and anyway, if you're not fit to fly you have a legal obligation to remover yourself from the flight. Now perhaps we can get me on Mastermind....specialist subject - THE BLEEDING OBVIOUS

heywood,

I is an extremely good point you bring up there and you are absolutely right. Not all CDRs are of the same opinion as you are which I find a bit scary.

Funny how some guys are so quick to jump to conclusions!!!!

Immediately assuming that their colleagues are idiots or irresponsible individuals...

Nice professional behavior....

Ok here goes. These are the facts.

When we left DXB, we were within the FDP limitations as described in the fom ie. using actual cfp flight times. As the flight continued it looked like we would land with 15 minutes to spare.

Then we were put into a hold. This is the reason we went over the 18 hour limit. In my view it was perfectly legal and within the scope of the fom. Also if we felt tired we had the option to give control to the relief crew who had been on duty for 14 hours. This was discussed on the day and we felt it was not required. Hope that settles that "issue."

As for the fuel "issue." During the hold we were given an expect further clearance time of 25 minutes. We had 35 minutes of hold time. No problem. By the way that does not include the 700 kgs of fuel that the fms keeps in the route reserve. Now at the time we prepared for a diversion to Newark just in case. At this time we easily met the requirements for commit to destination (about ten different runways and the weater was cavok). I have no problem landing with final reserve. We at Emirates and indeed all airlines plan on that possibility for every single flight. As it turned out we landed at JFK with enough fuel for the go around and diversion to Newark. What was stated earlier in a post is simply not true. Even if it was, I have no problem with landing with less than alternate fuel as the requirements for commit to destination were fulfilled. That is that "issue".

Now the big "Issue". Should we as pilots depart DXB knowing we will enter discreation? The answer is, it is up to the commander plain and simple. On that day I felt I could do it without comprimising safety. One of the other pilots decided not to do it and I supported him. If you know who it was then just ask him. Now some might feel that not going into discreation will force the company into rethinking The system. Might work I don't know. As for me I don't have agendas along these lines. On the day I will try to do the flight, but if I feel it is unsafe then the buck stops here (that is what I am payed for).

Now for the Canadians with no back bone "issue". You guys have your opinion and I respect that (I am Canadian after all). But if you think "I" would back down from any issue regarding work then you are simply misstaken.

Ps. I guess my identity is comprimised. Oh well.

Crazy.

Here you go LHR rain,

enough said; puts in perspective your credibility.

BTW If I was C Canuck, I would have let you more rope to hang yourself before answering to your assumptions....

QUOTE - By the way that does not include the 700 kgs of fuel that the fms keeps in the route reserve.

Just a side note, with no intention of critisizing (spelling?!) at all. The fuel figure in the FMS prediction page for Reserve, should be input as a percentage not a hard figure (as the uplink loads it.) Hence as the flight gets nearer destination, the reserve fuel remaining unburnt would transfer (figuratively) to the EXTRA figure and the real holding potential is then shown to the crew. Minimum reserve fuel amounts are for dispatch/planning purposes only.

I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of infighting going on in these forums nowadays. Pilots versus cabin crew in other forums and now pilots versus Canadian pilots. I think this is a huge shame. The last thing we want is friction at work because some d***head posts ridiculous comments on these forums about his/her colleagues and then the rest of the group are branded in the same manner. The Canadians are a great bunch of people to work with, and before anyone asks, I'm European.

Crazy Canuck, would strongly recommend you find a new identity on PPrune !!!!

4HP, how difficult would it be to introduce a spell checker on this website??!!!!:O

Virtually impossible - if appearances are important then cut & paste your submission to something like Word to verify the spelling. Generally speaking there is no requirement to have perfect spelling on this site - as in other forums, what is greatly appreciated is the use of capital’s, where appropriate, the avoidance of using all capital's (shouting) as well as the avoidance of making posts in SMS fashion, using abbreviated spelling. School's out - carry on. 4HP

On the 345, when you get closer to destination, and the 5% (or 3% or tonnes) inserted (or uplinked) in the "reserve" field of the "fuel pred." page becomes less than 700 kilos, it defaults to 700 kgs, you cannot overwrite it with a smaller figure...

Not trying to be smart...just a precision...

Menard....:rolleyes:

As for the question of Canadian pilots, well I've always thought they are jolly decent chaps:ok: Good to work with..

picu.

"Crazy Canuck, would strongly recommend you find a new identity on PPrune"

Why? I've done nothing wrong.

Crazy

Thanks Menard, didn't know that!

Crazy, I don't think you did anything wrong, far from it. What I meant was that now that almost everybody can know who Crazycanuck is ( from your post and through the portal/roster/trip info) you'll have to be careful what you write on this website in the future as your anonymity is no longer guaranteed. Unless that doesn't bother you of course.

Kind regards

picu.

Point taken, thanks.

Crazy.

Hey D

your call on the identity swap, gives a little "human touch" to things knowing who certain guys are, I use my grade school nickname so no secret as to who I am (comes from te last 4 letters of my name).

In the end couldn't give a rats-ass who knows who I am, I don't post unless I feel strongly about something anyway, and I will stand behind what I do post, unlike some who lurk here waiting for ridiculous things to come up like your trip.

Stick to your guns (as they say), hey you playing hockey this year, take your frustrations out on the ice like the rest of the no "back boned Canadaians" do. Makes for some nasty bruises in the morning, plenty of sour looks from the wife bit it just wouldn't be hockey without it

Dooner

yeah I know forgot to spell check on the last post, but the damn site punted me out the first time for "timing-out" so quickly typed the last one, mind you too many scraps in the corners over the years has probably dented my brains anyway

Dooner

ok I know I am not that stupid, I just typed a reply to my last post and after hitting send it vanished into cyberspace, so just to reiterate I did forget to spell check my previous post as the site keeps "timing-out" and punting me off

too many baoy-checks in the corners over theyears, brain cell diminishing every year

Dooner

Leaving EK
 

How does one leave EK without paying the bond? Has anyone done it recently and how did you go about it? Do you just leave, takeoff and not tell anyone? or do you tell them you want to leave and you are broke and cannot pay them? What can they do to you?

Not done it myself... You should have a chat with some of the hosties. Apparently there's a ritual you should follow.

Not entirely sure how it works but I believe it begins with taking out a bank loan and ends with your uniform laid out neatly on a hotel bed.

Take out as many loans from as many banks as you can, abscond on your next Melbourne trip and get your mates to send your photo from the Gulf News with your company denying having anything to do with you so you can pin it on your new crew room wall!

:E

Why would he want to go to Melbourne when he's from North America?

My advice mate? go and see the Fleet Managers, tell them your reasons, tell them you are leaving, tell them you are an honest person, tell them you want to repay the bond as that is what you signed up to do, that you are sticking to your side of the bargain. Arrange whatever finance you can in order to repay the bond and then go head held high and not looking over your shoulder for the rest of your career.

But that is what I would do. Moral issues aside, in the first world, a training bond is only enforceable if the skills acquired are transferable. For example, company A pays for your training, you sign a bond for $36K and you start working for them repaying your bond as you go. Company B then starts hiring people with the skills that Company A gave you, but at 30% more salary; then the training bond becomes a valid point. The fact that the Boeing or Airbus rating is on your nice shiny UAE gold ATPL is worth considering as the validity of our licence and its associated ratings, is worthless outside of the UAE. But then that is in the first world...

Good luck with whatever path you choose, maybe you could let us all know the outcome?

Ask a certain B777 capt who has recently absconded. Aparently everyone knew he was going to do it, but he did it anyway. I think his training bond was paid off, but the banks would like to have a word with him concerning the extremely large amount of money he owes them. He is now blacklisted here for sure.

They are looking for him in his home country where he has gone. He is one guy who will be looking over hs shoulder for the rest of his life.

S ID
 

Lighten up mate, if you are in Dubai then you know you need to have a sense of humor in the sandpit.

Lets face it do you believe people's profiles and more importantly if Uplink is with the company there are enough resources around in the fraternity that could offer sound advice without having to tramsmit to the world your intentions......

:rolleyes:

Got to agree with Uplink and SecureID on this. The Cabin Crew may well have got away with it in the past but their's is hardly a career in the same way ours is. Most of them will never return to flying anyway. We, on the other hand are in this for the long term and may find getting another job harder than we thought if we are carrying some 'history'.

How many times have we all used that saying "Aviation is a small World".

You'd better believe it!

How many pilots really are leaving?
 

There is the guy down a few topics who wants to leave and the company are telling me now that it is critical with the crew numbers, but how many did really leave? I asked two managers recently and got two different answers, and not by a little bit!!!!

I have to agree too. You will regret any decision to 'cut and run' unless you want to quit airline flying, or at least for the bigger companies. I have to agree with SID about the transferable skills, the bond only holds up (in the Western World) when the skills learned are actually transferable. In our case they are not, but I would not want to challenge it. Why not wait the three years? Forget about the command issues, enjoy your time and then quit, three years is really not that long. You then can leave with a clear conscience.

and lets hope there was a Hostie in it as well
:ok:

Ride your motor bike flat out into a parked bus (or just ride with consideration and care on Sheik Z Rd) either way, you will lose your medical. Training bond is forgiven plus you get loss of licence insurance....bargain! Unless of course you're dead.

Further to what Max has written. If it does all go wong, you might be able to use your free 100kg of frieght to get home. This truely could be the low cost option.

Don

...and by losing your medical you'll also get any provident fund payout as well! In fact, this plan sounds so good, I'm gonna buy me a motorbike! ;)

I think, and I am sure the numbers, or even the management will back me up here, that the amount of pilots who have left this year is ........ well , wait for it, almost there, and the winner is ............ anyone know
????

OK I'll say the numbers the training planners are working with.

For 2005:

107 no shows
37 resignations

144 short in total +/- 10 %. That's why you work your butt off.

Now work from those figures. Some add, Global Noman subtracts. Those are the figures you will here in the training college, not from a source, from the horse himself.



Did Ethihad get 20% payrise ???

Brix
 

I was cabin crew with EK in 1995, and even then the last week of leaving was a nightmare!!

Lots of running round, more rigmarole than joining, anyway, fellow posters here have told you what to expect.

On the other hand......half my batch did runners cos they hated it so much! Several egyptian male cabin crew racked up huge loans, and did runners, we were a bit astounded at their audacity at the time I must say! We later went on to find out it was more common than realised.

We all kept saying (as several of these guys then went back to Egyptair and are now pilots) that they would never be allowed back into the UAE, their names would be on a banned list at imigration blah balh....but they've since been back and living it up, so thats obvoulsy untrue!

My best friend absconded with her ID (which your supposed to hand in) she said she lost it, and used it for quite some time to come! Serves EK right if you ask me, they brainwash you into thinking you have it made, just to be working for such a "wonderful" airline! Most flight attendants and pilots that I knew who made the angst ridden decision to finally leave, moved on to much bigger and better things eventually. Good luck

mooguy
 

Much bigger , much better...No its not ...its just different..its all perspective ..go to other forums...people leave companies, positions, countries , wifes, why ?

Its all about human nature , people think that greener pastures are elsewhere , its all what you make of it . For pilots there aren't many unknowns (fa's different story since most are tourists anyway )..packages are more or less within few perks , thousands etc...its all about where do you feel good ..taste is so debatable that is pointless arguing why does someone like this company or that company, EK or SQ or GF whatever...for me and I dont work for EK.... this region is good.. much better than crapy gloomy uk weather or n.american winters , taxes , cuts or mergers that will leave you jobless while shlomos and greenbergs of this world are buying their Hollywood mansions and deffending OJ's ...while on the other hand someone likes rainy days, taxes and so called first world....khalas ...shoot the c$@p now:ok: :sad: :cool: