Is Ek This Bad?
 

My take from the outside.

1) DE Captain is detroying careers
2) Fatigue is a major issue
3) Housing is at best temporary. Can be moved to a new outpost in desert.
4) Pay is not on par with inflation
5) Managers who are anti-pilot
6) New sick policy means potential BK or jail time without ability to pay bills
7) Sub par retirement

Who would want to work there? And why do people stay?

They don't !
Well they don't stay forever that is.
When you decide to become an expatriate airline pilot you accept things will not be pefect but aim to achieve a few goals, either financial or professional and focus on that.
Once the goals are achieved or the goal posts moved the guy's ( and girl's now I believe), become disenchanted.
Then its just the age old story of the devil you know !

Yep pretty well sums it up, however I would argue the policies associated with DEC's are destroying careers, not the DEC's themselves. I know of few pilots that would turn down a DEC's job, if offered. Shoot the organ grinder not the monkey.

My take from the inside.

1) DE Captain is detroying careers - not destroying, but affecting.
2) Fatigue is a major issue - Absobloodylutely. Deafness an attribute of most managers though.
3) Housing is at best temporary. Can be moved to a new outpost in desert - I have had three company houses and just about to move to my fourth.
4) Pay is not on par with inflation - See answer to 2)
5) Managers who are anti-pilot - Not anti-pilot, just self serving. They are on a different bonus scheme, so why rock the boat?
6) New sick policy means potential BK or jail time without ability to pay bills - Yes, but only if you have debts here that will not be covered by a 50% reduction in your salary, which is pretty much everyone.
7) Sub par retirement - Definately, unless you are lucky enough to be able to put extra by each month.

I read recently in another post a fantastic quote taken from the movie An Inconvenient Truth. I'll type it here in bold and emphasise that TCAS and Ed et al should really be judged by these words, not by their actions.

It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

Once and for all folks, THERE IS NO NEW SICKNESS POLICY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its the same as its always been. The 14 day allowable sickness clause has always been there, its just never been enforced. (if anyone can give a specific example of where it has, then please share it with us). There are however many examples of guys who have been medium/long term sick who have been well looked after.....

Wrt accomodation, I've been in mine for the last 3 years and counting (hardly the definition of temporary), however I will conceed that a MINORITY of people have been p1ssed around, but the guys I know in DSO seem to like it (not exactly the 'prison camp' in the desert some were labling it as!).

As for the rest of the points, couldn't agree more!

quote: "There are however many examples of guys who have been medium/long term sick who have been well looked after....."

... well, that can't be the poor guy, who was run over recently by a local reckless driver and broke his leg (badly &multiple!) and is now refused to receive any more than 6 physio-sessions, as the blokes at the EK clinic are refusing to pay the bills furtheron!?:yuk: Over the budget they say!!! :eek:
Pretty bad that one - the poor guy is now limping there on his own (no transport paid/ and has to fork out the bucks for the ongoing physio-sessions now out of his own pocket - which is about 250 Dirham each :{ !!
That's how EK treats You, when You got long-term sick -without your own fault ;-((

Sorry for the thread creep:)

Ek Clinic has some very good doctors, but like all EK departments they have a budget.

They do try and cut as much cost as they can, limits on Physio, dental, re-charging for prescription medecine...Inflated costs for over the counter stuff at Pharmacy....supposed to non-profit but they charge more than local pharamcy..go figure

It sounds like that they are thinking of implementing the terms in our contract...which haven't changed , we have been relying on the generosity of our magnificent managers to go above and beyond what they have to do...after all EK is in serious financial difficulty:bored: .....stands to reason, the only other companies as ruthless about cost cutting are in Chapt 11...:ugh: :ugh:

AS for the other points mostly spot on..despite what Turtle has to offer..

DEC programme was the first the sign of trouble. Cost cutting has had a major affect on most peoples long term financial situation....cost neutral salary cuts put me worse of now than I was 3 years ago..as for the spending power of the Dh in you pocket , I'll let the financial whizz kids work out exactly how much that has cost, all I know is that I know earn less, and have a lower standard of living now than I did before I joined EK...over 3 years ago..and before turtle head says that I am better of.....

Yes, the Villa I live in is larger, but a bed is a bed even if it is in a room 4 times the size, a TV shows the same stuff even if it's 42", the huge 4x4 is still a car, bit of a necessity rather than luxury and it costs me more than the sedan I used to drive on account of fuel economy being about a fifth as good, standard of produce im shops is generally poor, variety is another matter...

I go out less, have less savings, fewer holidays, and am permanently knackered...so as far as I am concerned my standard of living is lower..

.....DEC programme,anti pilot managers, inflation ...all add up to a huge pay cut...

Pause for breath...rant over

Cyberbird,

Have a look at the guys on long term sick leave via the roster/duty/sk, call them and see if they are;

being paid the full wage,

been told by the company that they are on limited sick leave,

that they are limited on the amount of care they will receive,

You will find that everything is the same as has always been, physio has always been limited to 6 visits at a time, I had 15, clinic had no problem with approving more on the recommendation of the physio, so don't know why your friend is different.

Overall, what would you get from say Cx/BA/QF/SQ etc if you had the same issues with them.... 2/3rds of f:mad: all!!!:=

I have to say that I know of two or three people who have been off sick long term who have nothing but good things to say about the way they were treated by management. I don't know any details of the case of the pilot who broke his leg and I don't know if policy has changed over the last month ot two, but give credit where it's due - right up to the very recent past, EK management have gone well beyond what the contract says in looking after pilots who were ill.

To balance my bouquet with a brickbat, I'd have to agree with the comment above regarding the Provident Fund's (non)performance. Looking at average market performance over the last few years, I can't believe the poor returns my A and B accounts have achieved.

EK Recruitment Policy
 

Anyone in EK who can tell me the recruitment policy for employing people of different nationalities, do they have any preferences e.g Europeans, GCC Nationals, Asians etc.
I heard of conlicting stories and I need some truth.:rolleyes:

The ONLY nationality given any sort of preference is UAE nationals, for the obvious reason that they'd like as many of their own citizens flying their aeroplanes - and the UAE is by no means alone in having that preference.

Judging by the extraordinary racial/nationality mix you see on the flight deck, there would appear to be no policy in place to avoid any race or nationality - I'm assuming, (pretty safely, I'd say) - with one expeption when it comes to nationality, and that's towards citizens of that State-that-can't-be-named, the 'hard place' King Abdullah of Jordan was referring to when he said that his country was "between Iraq and a Hard Place". That avoidance doesn't extend to people whose religion is the main religion of that 'hard place', for there are a number of pilots in the airline of that religion, and I know one or two of them make no attempt to hide their religion.

The only other 'skew' that I'm aware of is a desire not to have too large a group of any one particular nationality. As for why they want that, I'll leave for someone else to answer.

Regarding sick leave...

I believe for the most part, pilot's are reasonably well taken care of.

However, with dependants the story is different. EK has stopped the cash when the $300,000dhs (until recently the amount of coverage was $200,000) has been burned through. This has happened a couple of times in the last year. You will be left holding the medical bill, unless you have other medical insurance. $300,000dhs ain't much.

Jinglied

Regarding the Provident fund, it's the 5% that the Company provide which will need to exceed the statutory EOB, or else the latter is paid. Our own compulsory 5% is NOT factored into the calculations and would be in addition to the above sum.

I do agree, however, that there is too much protection built into our scheme and the recent results of the A + B fund is nothing short of criminal. People really need to start asking some searching questions. :suspect:

So if one of your family is run over on a crossing by a well to do person, and the bills run past 300k then you gotta pay for the rest yourself ?
Souds extreme but the chances of this happening are really quite high.
I have also heard many insurance companies pick out loop holes with a fine tooth comb to avoid paying up.

Ramboflyer 1..

EK will payout $300,000dhs per dependant per disease/condition etc. So.. yes, if your child/spouse gets severally injured, becomes very ill, etc.. the company guarantees only $300,000dhs. If something else happens to another member of your family (or something different to the SAME member) the $300,000 dhs will be available again for the new case.

EK has recently continued paying beyond that amount for dependants with TERMINAL illness, (I know of at least one case where they continued support beyond $300,000dhs) but for non life threatening situations, you are left holding the tab.

Jinglie'd

I know of 4 pilots that were off for more than 1 year on full pay. know of one dependant whose care bill far exceeded 300000( company paid ). You get tried of hearing guys complain all the time , its not the best job out there but its ok. For those who cant shut up just leave you would be doing us all a big favour.

Hey there "FATBUS"

I don't recall saying it was the worst job, nor the best. I am stating what I know happened. Seems like you're the one complaining..


And I have no intention of leaving at the moment.

Jinglie'd

I dont complain ,to much of a wasted effort, just do my 90 hrs month because we really cant do much more and wait for what I think is a better job ( it may not happen in my life time)

I'm not sure whether to say "Only 90 hours? Looxuury!" or "Slacker!"

does EK really treat their staff well as they advertise?
 

Hi there all,

I have placed a similiar thread to this in another topic, but decided to put a separate one for exposure!

Situation as I have been contacted by EK for grade 09 position (but after 9 nmths since the advert was posted....which in itself begs a question!)and possible interview, I thought it best to canvas those currently in DXB and working for EK as to what they are like in looking after their people...DO THEY REALLY WALK THE WALK AND NOT JUST TALK THE TALK?

I know the salary for EK09 is around 18,000 dhs pmth....are they negotiable?
I have recieved the conditions sheet (with no base salary) but everything else seems OK on outside!

I have seen some unfavourable comments re housing, as i WAS looking to use the company accommodation and some have said they have been moved numerous times, why is this and is this normal? obviously we dont want to keep having to move every so often as this a real pain in the arse!

we want to be in a villa near the city for ease of access and does an EK09 get a villa (how many bedrooms?) or apartment?

are the villas freestanding or in a compound with pool, garage or carport, etc? what sort of condition are they in (incl the furniture)?

does one get to choose the villa (accommodation) or are you just given one and lump it or like it?

Where is the desert camp, why would one want to go out that far?

cost of living question: what a normal/ average trolley of groceries cost their for a family of 2 adults/1 child?

can anyone give me a precis of the interview process (non pilot/aircrew) as I believe it is over a 2 day period and did they arrange airfare, accommodation and visa (and pay for it) and what about meals?, where is it held?

for the interview do they pick you up at the airport and drop you off again?

what is cost of petrol?

what are better areas for renting (if I go that route) ...only get around 106,000 dhs pa for rent allowance (and it seems to rent a 3 bed villa in decent area at least 150k dhs pa or more?

tips on schools for child just entering high school ?

any issues re the health, insurance side of things with the company?

re the staff profit share...for an EK09 what was that over the last few financial years and is this based on a potential of your base salary?

I also noticed they may have an additional bonus if exceed their nominated profit, has that ever happened? how is that share based?

I know there will be those of you who will have an axe to grind and I am happy for you to vent your steam, however all I ask is that you can keep it objective for me at the same time, I do need to hear all the pros and the cons from you good folk.

all for now will have q's more later

rgds

Myway
:8 :8

Myway,
I have 8 years at EK. If your outlook on life is the same as your callsign then may I respectfully suggest that niether Dubai nor Emirates will be your cup of tea.
Good luck with your decision.
CC.

working in UAE
 

Myway

cant speak for emirates, however after working for Serco in AUH for a few years, I would not recommend it. Most private companies tend to take advantage of the lack of IR worklaws there when they can.

As I said dont know about emirates but could be much the same. As for Dubai lots of traffic apparently.

cmon you emirates lot I would be interested to hear your answers to compare with my experience.

cheers:confused:

info on emirates
 

Hi Borat

tks for the info, funny the site says they cover airfares to DXB for interview, visas and accommodation?

Re the villas, are these in a compound or are they free standing?
and if you have to move do they cover the cost of the shift to a new premises?

re the "desert camp" where exactly is that located in relation to the airport and the aviation college?

Cost of petrol (I am from Australia) is cheap at around 42c AUD per litre ...we pay around $1.20 AUD per litre!!:D

Please forward more info all of you emirates staffers, would be much appreciated.

rgds

Myway
:cool:

Myway, I have a few friends that are grade 9 and I will answer based on what I know of their terms & conditions.
Your Grade 9 package is very dependant on what the job is. I would be surprised if a "core G9" position gets as much as 18,000 pcm. I would have thought it would be nearer to 14K. By a Core G9 position I mean a HR person or some other middle management position. In Flight Services (Cabin crew) generally get more than a core G9 position and Flight Crew Training Instructors get roughly the same basic as a First Officer (18K).
As to accommodation, if you are single or married without kids, you will almost certainly get offered a apartment. These are to a good standard usually, however you cannot guarantee location or quality. The accommodation department will dump you where they have availability and sometimes it can be really quite bad. You have little or no influence on this.
DO NOT think about finding your own accommodation, you WILL regret that.
All in all, a G9 position can be OK, but you will have to learn the company way of doing things, don't rock the boat, don't expect to or try and improve things, expect to be managed by a totally unsuitable person and treated like you are disposable.
However, if you can play the game (embrace the organisations psycopathic treatment off staff and cut costs at every corner) expect rapid promotion to SVP level :}

ruserious

tks for the info. This is for an ATC instructor position (ie training ATCs at the college) at the aviation college so definitely a core HR role, so I will still assume until otherwise advised it will be in the realm of the 18,000 dhs/mth mark unless otherwise advised.

tks again.
waiting for more input ladies and gents, please step forward with your input.

cheers

Myway
:ouch:

On 18k per month if you are single? you can live reasonably well. If you have a family to take care of? Forget it!

We have three kids and running the household expenses and kids extras, comes to 15k p.m.

Every month this place experiences an escalation of costs.

The Dirham is also linked to the US. I dont think an elaborate explanation is required on that subject. Especially if we witness a further weakness of the greenback.

Expect your contract to change at will! As and when the HR and accounting team deem so. Without your consent! It's never required!

Check Six:cool:

check 6

tks, only me, the wife and one child, struth 15K per mth for expenses seems a little on the high side, we thought we should have no probs living on around 7,500 per month considering all the other stuff they pay for!!

Obviously I must be getting incorrect information from others.

what would one expect to pay for an average trolly of groceries there, from one of the middle range supermarkets, not purchasing anything to fancy either?

more input as per my questions earlier post would be appreciated, when you have the time.

await your response!

cheers

We have 1 kid, and are fairly careful with our money and I reckon it costs us about 12-14,000 on average each month.

The dollar will almost certainly de-value, when I arrived it was 5.6 to the pound, as of yesterday it was about 7.2, couple that with rampant inflation.

Keep suffering:ok: ...... sorry recovering;)

thanks, only 2 more questions
 

tks all fro those who responded.

after a fairly late night trawl of the net (incl pprune) I reckon I have just about got the picture and all the info I was looking for, plus with my 2 year experience earlier this century, the jury will be out for a while, I think.

Just want a place to see me to retirement over next 7-10 years but not sure this will do it, especially if ERP is chucked.

As I am going for an ATC instructor position, is the "pilots club" only open to EK pilots or would they welcome an EK ATC instructor into the club as well?

also, the one thing I have been able to dig up info on is the so called "waiting lists" at some schools... can someone enlighten me please?

wait foryour replies to the above.

cheers;)

My Way,

PM.

It's actually Imperial Gallons (1IG=4,546L) in the U.A.E.....

Some good news for a change....:8

mad

A question for Ed
 

Nice to see that some single FOs like Waltair are happy since joining EK 9 months ago. However from someone who has been here considerably longer, perhaps Ed the talking horse may be able answer some of the following:
1. If EK has the pilots we need (as seen in 7days) why are we flying 100 hours a month,
2.Why is there no leave available,
3.Why Captains have 2 – 3 months of leave owing that can't be taken,
4.Why we fly around 2 crew where most other airlines would use two or three on flights with similar duty times,
5.Why we fly to New York direct in aircraft with no bunks,
6.Why no one can be bothered submitting safety reports anymore,
7.Why the company is pursuing to increase our annual flying limit to 1000hrs when the majority of Captains are already chronically fatigued,
8.Why we have to explain to a dispatcher how much fuel we want to take,
9.Why pilots are carpeted for submitting fatigue related safety reports,
10.Why our rosters come out 4 days before they start,
11.Why training captains are leaving EK to join Cathay as Second Officers, and Dragon Air, and others as FOs
12. Why pilots are leaving in record numbers.

Myway,

I too know several EK09 'middle managers'.

The answers & comments given by Ruseriious & co are on the mark, especially about the pay level & cost of living. You will do well to get above 14/15k.

A few other comments:

On this salary level, you will need another income source to get you any spending or saving money.... most spouse's of this income level HAVE to work as such...

Silicon Oasis, the desert camp, is a group of about 80 villa's, similar in fashion and design to Ranches / Meadows etc. They are brand new, and still not fully occupied, although I think some have been living there now for about 6 months. Key point for you however is that they are Grade 10 & above only. So not for you unless you can sway Accom in some miraculous manner...

The utilities / rental allowance will not get you good enough accomodation on the open rental market in Dubai - you will have to look at Sharjah as option, which is where most the EK subcontinent middle managers live, or even Al Ain, neither attractive for a variety of reasons. Even Mirdiff, the previous 'cheap' spot, is out of your reach unless you look at a small 2 bed place.

If you wish to buy, you will need about 40 or 50% deposit to be allow your allowance to pay your mortgage, or if you have smaller deposit, you will need to top up your mortgage to tune of 2 or 3 k per month minimum.

Schools have become busy again, and waiting lists the norm again, even after several new schools opening. You will have some limited choice, and EK employment is an advantage in some of the schools, but your choice of living location (if any) may (likely) to be in direct conflict with location of school.

The pilots club is known as EPC - now is pilots only as Associate membership has been stopped or capped (not sure which) - but either way, I doubt they will be able to accept you. If they do, it helps someway with some discounts and some beach club entrance, so the annual fee is well worth it.

And just like everyone else in the company, whether pilot, CC, or clerk, secretary or manager, EK will get their pound of flesh from you, no matter how hard you try to play it down the middle.

But Dubai is fun place to live, the weather is great for most of year, despite this weekend's 7's wash-out, and a lot of other positives. The traffic is a nightmare, but you learn to live with it just like any other city or place that has rush hours... the local laws and bureacracies are a minefield...

If it is a good career move, then take it, and manage the finances closely. If it is just for some fun in the sun, then OK too. But if you think you're coming to make some brass for old age, then forget it!:=

Cheers
ZZZ

i dont feel sorry for anyone here except this poor little girl who think EK cadets's doesnt deserve what they are getting after their trainings. Sofia, do you still remember when you used to come to EK guys and ask them to help you? would you mind letting everyone knows how many time you failed in your CPL? anyway, please when you talk leave the EK cadets out of the subject and just talk about your self.. EK cadets got their people to judge them not you..

sentimental
 

hawki --- dont get senti here-

i passed my cpl on first go - how abt u chk some records b4 u quote ;)as for ek - i have some very dear friends - and each of them deserve what they have. lets not get personal here. this is not a personal forum but a professional one to seek and share information! lets keep it that way-

hawki-talki
 

I agree we all should use this forum to share information and help! :D

Hawki please take some advise and get off your high horse.:}

It's pretty difficult to take someone who types in 'text' speak, seriously. Just my opinion.

I have to agree. It is similar to reading something from 13 year old.

Agreed
 

If you are going to take the time to post answers to these threads, please do yourself and the rest of us reading this a favor, and to NOT type in text.

well, no need to remind you, as you always had issues with EK people. I dont know why but I wish you the best with your career. Remember, what Tony Carter told you. He was talented by knowing people with attituds.. I have nothing against you but I really dont appreciate you talking on EK cadets behalf. They got their people to judge them not you. and yes they are so lucky.. :)