Dubai ATC
 

Am I alone when I say there are one or two ATCOs (Aussie/English?) in DXB who seem to suffer from constant PMS?
The ones who seem to spend 30-40% of the talk time flogging pilots for the smallest R/T mistakes.
The ones who threaten to vector you to hell and back if you miss two radio calls.
The ones who seem to be in a desperate need of some permanent R and R.

Apologies to the rest of you ATCOs in DXB. Apart from the need to read a 30 sec blablabla every time we check in for arrival/departure to DXB, you are a professional lot second to none.:ok:

The other two...

Am I alone when I say there are one or two pilots who fly into DXB who seem to suffer from flying while in a vegetative state?
The ones who seem to spend 30-40% of the talk time getting flogged for constant R/T mistakes.
The ones who get vectored to hell and back because they need two radio calls for every instruction.
The ones who seem to be in a desperate need of some permanent R and R.

Apologies to the rest of you pilots in DXB. Apart from the need to readback a 30 sec blablabla every time you check in for arrival/departure to DXB, you are a professional lot second to none. :ok:

The other two...

Ouch!!
 

That hurts!!!

We are not, all that bad are we.....?
I missed a few calls! but the importance of ATC & Pilots is to communicate and NOT to censurade!:ok:
Cheers to all

I am just a pilot!

Clever response from Ferris, you have to admit, eh? My 2 fils worth: have usually found ATC in this area helpful - own speeds; direct clearances; fast climbs - able, and often enjoyably witty - witness our callsign, 'Midjet', promptly morphed into 'Midget'! (corporate jet)
:p

doodle bug!
 

Eh! you must be from Canada! right Pal?
just teassing!:cool:

ferris, I have absolutely no problems with UAE or Abu Dhabi. This is limited to DXB, and further down to one or two individuals. No need to feel offended unless the shoe fits, and you do some part time work in Dubai.

We all do mistakes, we can all have a bad day, but these guys behave in a way I've never experienced before, and they do it consistently.

...another small point...
 

....PLEASE understand that just as the nose-wheel is touching down, the noise level in the front office is the loudest (and somewhat busiest) of the entire flight.

NOT a good time to radio to us "ABC123, next right, over to Ground 121.x, blah blah...." WHAT DID THEY JUST SAY?? "Say again...??"

We know you are busy fitting out round pegs into the square holes around us, but hold off that transmission for just 15 more seconds. Once the reversers are stowed, you can tell us exactly what to do...'cause THEN we can HEAR YOU! :D

(or...how about clearing instructions when we first say 'ello?)

Cheers!
C.O.

PS: DXB isn't the only place guilt of this annoyance, but it has crept into the scene more recently there for some reason.

jet4hire

Nah, that's one of my fellow-drivers. He'll be delighted to hear he's achieved the dizzying heights of a mention in the hallowed halls of pprune, though :D

Doodlebug

Ok was trying to resist but what the hell.............

Yes there are a handful amongst us that tend to go ott, we all know who they are and trust me we're trying to sort it but it's a slow process as they've mostly been atco's since Pontious was a pilot!

We all do our utmost but our patience does wear thin every once in awhile especially with pilots who think there outside Europe so they don't need to pay attention. Next time a controller barks just remember we're trying to do our job with not enough people, a crap system and a regulator who blames us for everything!

Rgds FT

ManaAdaSystem.
I was just having a laugh.

Remember, it's arguably worse for us at the centre. We have to talk to them all the time, and put up with their 'interesting' techniques.

Could one of the Dubai ATCO's tell me why we have to make the extraordinary long call on initial contact (published in Jepps) surely this takes up valuable RT time? The longest verbage required by any airport in the world, to my knowledge.

While I am on the questions, why can't DXB's mode c check be satisfactory for UAE and vice versa, climbing out of the UK, the French or Maastricht don't ask for another level passing check?

A delivery frequency would also take alot of pressure off you Ground controllers.

Thanks for the service ladies and gents

brgds

CRS:confused:

Personally I think you boys are pretty alright over in DXB and I must say considering traffic conditions you do a good job. I also understand how frustrating it must be when you have to repeat clearances sometimes when people miss the call, but hay don't forget we're all just human and more importantly we're one team, together we keep em flying.
Keep up the good work boys
Cheers
Snails:ok:

I work out of DXB and must say except for the Canadian guy we had a few years ago, who was a bit too highly strung, I find all the ATC pretty good. What I would like to see though is the ATIS abreviated. By the time you listen to that diatribe one and a half times, you have generally missed at least one radio call. Given that the weather conditions rarely change, do we need such a time consuming ATIS broadcast?

I second the call for a delivery freq. EK alone is expanding at a rediculous rate, let alone increased traffic from other airlines and already the ground freq is overloaded. It's only going to get worse, particulary as EK likes to put all its departures around 0800. Do you guys have any plans in the wind to address the problem?

dmf

I second DMF's call for a delivery freq. as it can be a nightmare at 03:00 trying to get a word in on 118.35.

The initial call, well according to my MATS you're required to pass callsign, type, passing level, cleared level and SID/STAR. That's not really huge is it? If you don't we only have to keep coming back to you again & again until we get the info. It saves us alot of RT time if done correctly.

Mode C checks, seems unnecessary? Couldn't agree more, complete waste of time in IMHO but what regulator demands we must do.

As for on the ground, it is split in two during busy periods, a movements planner & controller. This will become a 24 hour thing as we get more bums on seats in the tower.

New digital ATIS is being installed as we speak but again the regulator raises his ugly head and we have to do what he commands.

Ferris - is there any reason that Dubai is the only place in the world that I know of where the Approach guy doesn't control his/her own hold? Is it just politics?

Hope I answered most things :ok:
Rgds FT

I can only assume the comment about RVSM is to give you fair warning that unless you have complied rigidly with a number of things, you won't be going up there?

RE; the holds. I couldn't agree more. APP should 'own' the bottom 2 levels, so you can bring them out as you see fit (done in the UK that way?). The whole flow control system needs fixing. It is a joke (but guess who instigated it? We've got buckley's of getting it changed- that instruction would have to come from on high. His lordship is juggling so many balls- lack of delegation- that it's down the list of priorities. There was a thread about 2 years ago critisising the inbound flow- and nothing has changed. It's good to see some common sense coming to the fore and asking us for gaps between 2 inbounds here or there, rather than the blanket '20' call. Could all be done so much better...... aahhh welllll.

Mode C checks- see above re; juggling.

I think the big man is a dane actually, but yes he is still running the whole show.

Agree on the Mode C checks, a waste of time, as Dubai APP does it then 3 minutes later, us at UAE centre do it, then most likely for Eastbound departures, 5 minutes later Muscat does it.

On the flow, I cannot believe that a place like Melbourne, has a fulltime dedicated Flow position, organising the sequence, whereas Dubai, which is much more congested only has a coordinator, who almost as an afterthought has a look at how the sequence looks. Basically it comes down to the Eastern UAE sector, running his sequence, and the Western UAE sector running his, and then they all come to a grinding halt over Dubai, and we end up with the infamous Dubai Air Show. Must be a better way.

As far as the Grumpy Dubai controllers, I personally have found 90% of them to be good to work with (even all those damn Kiwis!). Just a couple, especially one quite large individual, spoil the broth. Most of the time when things get strained whether its with the pilots, or with us poor centre controllers, its due to frustration at the procedures and restraints placed on them, and nothing personal.

Fish,

Isn't it a pleasant change to see reverse slagging in progress. Can anyone remember the last time they saw a topic degenerate into a constructive discussion, on any pprune forum. We had best be careful though, someone will mistake us for professionals and completely blow our disguise.

On the other hand, I find it appalling that pprune is the defacto means of sorting these things out. It would be nice if our management could see beyond the parapets of their ivory towers and invite some of our colleagues from the other trades (ATC etc) to our meetings so that we could discuss something other than jump seat policy, pay and rostering.

Then having fostered a healthy professional relationship, we could adjourn to the Irish Village to continue another fine aviation tradition.


dmf

The EAA (Emirates Aviation Association) has a newly-formed ATC division, and I'm sure would be happy to send a couple of people along to an EK pilot's meeting (if invited). The EAA actually has some official standing, and may be a way of suggesting changes that a certain person may take onboard. You never know!

The Irish Village does sound good.

Ferris
how do they do it in the UK?

with their socks still on. :O

From what I have been told, APP owns the bottom 2 levels of the stack (say 10000' and 11000'). Area drops them to 12000', then hands them off. As 12000' is vacated, next one to 12000' and handed off. This way APP can keep them in the hold at 10 and 11, and bring them out as they see fit (you want 2 levels, so that you can control the spacing). It could work for any levels (say 8 and 9 even). Just a different way of thinking about jurisdiction. Essentially the area guy is thinking like this anyway, once you start holding. He purely reverts to levels during holding, which is why sometimes you have aircraft calling APP when they are not even pointing inbound. They have been told to turn in, call APP. The next one in is being seperated by vertical, but just spaced with lateral, so the area guy doesn't need to be talking to the bottom A/C in the stack. So, instead of APP 'owning' a set distance from the runway (the gate), they own the levels underneath the hold. This could be switched on and off as required. It's much more efficient, because instead of area sending them all in 10 miles apart or whatever, APP knows when they need a gap for an AUH arrival etc and can control their own inbound flow.

ps. Several pilots have told me that they would much prefer to take the delay in the hold, then just go straight in. It peeves them to come out of the hold, then get vectored all over the terminal area. I think the above scenario would alleviate that (which is caused by the current crappy system). It's frustrating to sit and watch the beautiful stream you have worked to create go to hell in the terminal area, because there are a couple in from the east and 1 from AUH. There has to be a better way.

Hi guys

Just a point about the start sequencing in DXB,when its busy everybody always seems to get started,taxied and cleared for takeoff in the sequence they called.

This is all very gentleman like but at times not very practical.Often you will have 5 departures on the same track in a row which I'm sure makes things difficult for the departure controller catching them.

Would it not make more sense to sequence traffic as much as is possible,one left turn departure ,one strait ahead,one right,one left etc.
I'm sure this would also help the ACC controllers and help everybody get there levels and reduce time between departures.Another thing that will help traffic flow is to have departures out of SHJ route north to RAK before on track to aid seperation from DXB traffic.

Ok with ya all the way Ferris, giving us the hold or at least the bottom few levels will let us control the spacing much better. The current system forces area controllers into doing the sequencing, not their job at all and they only have half the picture. If we could just get that :mad: Dane to stop playing politics and apply some logic..........sorry forgot where I am living there ;)

As for prefering to stay in the hold, would love to keep you there but as it stands our only flexibilty is in the vectoring hence the scenic tours. Ferris is the only coordination between North/West & East sectors done by Dubai Cod?

As for the start ups, usual problem with everyone wanting to go the same way at the same time, plus our local tower only atcos sometimes don't pick up on the bigger picture. As it stands we'll be splitting ground from March 1st into movement controller and planner. Also the longer term plans envision a Tower Coordinator. Obviously these plans hinge on us recruiting enough atcos which depends on our pay & conditions being improved (not holding my breathe there then :hmm: )

Wow controllers from the centre & the airport as well as pilots all talking together..............geesh, novel this innit? :ok: Oh the remark about the pilots meeting, care to PM an e-mail address and I'll pass it to my boss. As for the Irish Village, well alright, if you insist :E

ATM, the way the system is set up, Nth and East sequence independantly. The only way to get extra spacing is to call for 20nm etc. Flow shouldn't be run from the centre. This is very inefficient. It would work if east was given gate times ie. number 1 cross BUBIN at 34, number 2 at 39 etc. There has been some ad hoc experimentation recently by a few of us re; coordinating gaps in the west sequence to fit AUH and east arrivals. Whilst a marked improvement, it still doesn't cover all bases, and if you-know-who found out we weren't doing it his way, we'd be toast.

PM me for contact details of the EAA people.

Firstly, a couple of ‘givens’:
- Emirates is DXB’s biggest customer
- Emirates aircraft (except one) all have datalink
- Many other users of DXB also have datalink

While it will be a great improvement to separate the ADC and Ground frequencies, (as only occasionally seems to happen lately), let’s drag DXB into the 21st century with something that’s been in use elsewhere for ages now – datalink.

DATALINK
Could we please have datalink as soon as possible for pre start airways clearances at DXB? It would go a long way towards reducing the terrible bottlenecks around 2.00 am and 7.30 am as God only knows how many people try to squeeze a word in edgeways. It’s like Mumbai HF some mornings.

***

A….T….I….S
I also have to agree with the many comments re DXB’s too long ATIS. It’s almost as bad as CDG where you have to sit through the French edition before they deign to parlez to us in (puh!) Anglais.


***

As for the personal complaints: I think I speak for the majority of DXB ATC users when I say that most of us understand that the silliness we sometimes see inflicted upon us is as frustrating for the ATCOs as it is for us. Like us, they’re only wing a set of ‘rools’ laid down for them by people who know better.

***

HOLDING
Re the holding stack: I’m more than a little anal retentive about fuel, and I really don’t like the cross country tours I all too frequently get after I’ve been cleared from DESDI or wherever. On occasion, I’ve burnt so much more than expected after leaving the stack going into DXB that I would have been seriously embarrassed had I been held in the stack to within a few minutes of my ‘bug out’ figure. (Like many, I suspect, I’ve since increased my ‘bug out’ figure for DXB.)

I’d really like to see the LHR system, where you have a fair to middlin’ idea (to within 100 to 200 kgs) of how much you’re going to burn after you leave the hold. Whoever it was who suggested inviting ATCOs to the next pilot meeting was inspired. Damn good idea.

***

Finally, it’s refreshing to find Pprune actually being used for what I suspect Danny created it for. I recall a similar thread some time ago about 777-300 approach speeds into LHR that seemed to have a very positive effect on both camps understanding of the others’ positions and preferences. Let’s hope this one has a similar effect.

Ferris
like it. Interesting stuff. Where did you do your approach ?

Sorry Ferris, musta been having a day off when you achieved that beautiful sequence :E

Seriously though I do agree that what Dubai needs is a dedicated flow controller who works out the sequence and then works back from that with times to arrive at the respective gates, which then leaves it up to us humble area controllers to meet those times and with a bit of luck the sequence would run smoothly.

If that is too much to expect then have a coordinator who selectively asks for 20 NM's between certain aircraft rather than the blanket 20 NM's or 30NM's between all aircraft after they have lost the plot and the poop has well and truly hit the fan.

Fly Through,

"just remember we're trying to do our job with not enough people, a crap system and a regulator who blames us for everything!"

Good to see not much has changed in the past few years!

As for the holding patterns... with local 'politics' gaining precedence over operational sense over the past few years - less airspace and more restrictions placed by the 'regulator' - things are bound to have become more operationally challenging. No doubt the empire building will continue...

Might also help a bit if we were to actually fly the published star instead of the " maintain heading 300"!!!! Would stop a lot of the controller work load, would allow the flight deck (early morning after all night flight from hell) to use the FMC for track miles and descent profile....and hopefully free up the approach freq a bit.
Maybe if the chart reflected 210kts at bubok (oops can not remember its name!!!) and 180kts and 2000' at Umali (is that the right name for 12L ?) only small speed control would be required at busy times. The mile or two saved by the early turn at 0600hrs sometimes is not worth the effort.
Think the discussions that have taken place at Dubliners on those warm summer days between ATC and Pilots over the last few years have been well worth while, long may they continue, if only I could remember some of the answers the next morning!
Don

Being quite new to DXB I think Dubai ATC is not to bad compared to the rest of the middle east. The only thing that really scared me a couple of days ago. Was the fact that an aircraft was cleared for take off while we taxied from M5 to k2(?) for 12R while there was a 747 lined up at the begining of the RWY. Apparently a smaller aircraft than us (B1900) was cleared for an intersection take off, would be appreciated if you guys gave us a bit more info on what is going on at our 6 o' clock. Keep up the good work i'd say

Probably just reiterating what's gone before but....

I have always been impressed having been sequenced by UAE and flapped at 240kts for 300 miles, when Dubai give me 'Direct Ukrim, no speed control'

The snag seems to be that they try to manage arrivals from 3 directions without a stack and only have control of the full picture when the aircraft get to Desdi et al pointing at 12L. London have the luxury of a much larger area in which to get the whole sequence squared away.

It all seems to go horribly wrong when the stream from Iran meets the Saudi and Omani streams. After all they even said in Ghostbusters, don't cross the streams.

Is there a way that the routing into Dubai's airspace for 12 could have a timing leg (just like out of Lambourne) so that aircraft can be picked off to meet a time at Ukrim. Then if it gets busy the hold could be used to slow the flowrate. Right now, there seems to be not enough trackmiles or angles in the STARs to sort out the problem.

I'll just go and feed my granny another egg!

Ghost :confused:

I think the sequencing should be left to the approach guys, we're the only one's who have the whole picture re inbounds from other directions. Maybe even try being old fashioned by giving centre lowest levels and EATs, then you guys can arrange your flights accordingly, we can achieve minimum spacing and centre isn't spending all there time trying to get 10 miles. We're also spending much more time on the phone these days with individual coordination to try and speed things up but some UAE watches don't like this and it is officially against our rules.

As for flying the stars, great if it's quiet (I just love letting all the technical gubbins do the work for us:ok: ) but when we're attempting max runway utilization then we need to vector you to get the gaps accurate. As for descent profiles, we can give you a best guess at distance from touchdown but at the moment due to a number of reasons (ie. every star & sid conflicting, only allowed to use 5 miles separation in a system set up for 3 miles.....etc) we can't always ensure the continuous descent.

There's a hell of lot of changes needed in the system here but all though we shout ourselves horse trying to get it we're only atco's so we're ignored. What we need is complaints from the customers, so come on all you mrats guys get whinging to your company, then pressure might be brought to bear.

Cheers FT

Fly Through

Check your PM

I think the controlers do a very good job in DXB. A hold is almost non existant even at the busy times. As for the profiles, vectors and speed control when it is busy, I say they see more of the picture than we do, so I just follow and let them lead me in. They always get the message across when we are get high or low on "their" profile (sometimes you have to read between the lines). As for the rare instance when we are arriving in the pattern with close to min fuel, if you let them know I'm sure they will do all they can to help out.

Keep up the good work guys.
:ok:

Crazy

Not stealing Dubai's thunder but generally all the holding, vectoring and speed control is care of us guys in Abu Dhabi. So you can thank/blame us for that.

Vercingetorix.
I've never done APP.

Ghost. It just means you have taken your delay before entering the terminal area. Area spaces you 10nm behind the one in front by DESDI. If APP have sent the one ahead of you direct to UKRIM, then you too will go dct UKRIM (barring them trying to fit another one in from the east between you). Alternatives; you could steam on in for those '300nm' at 320kts, then enter the hold at DESDI and take your delay there, or just plunge on into the TMA, overload the APP freq and his airspace (like it used to happen) and have no idea about how long you have to run.
Donpizmeov
I'm sure if you want a more regimented system (ie always fly the STAR) the boss would be only too happy to oblige.

All the complaints are fixable. It's no joy to have to work this system. I'm sure it worked well in Copenhagen in the early 70s....:hmm:

'Not stealing Dubai's thunder but generally all the holding, vectoring and speed control is care of us guys in Abu Dhabi. So you can thank/blame us for that.'

Hmmmmm let's just say you start the ball rolling, we're the one's that run with it. Next you'll be saying that you do the sequencing!! ;)

By the way you area guys, are there rules on how you get the gaps through Desdi or Bubin? Seen some really bizarre methods of late!

Rgds FT

Ps. I know we do a liason visit as part of our training but we never see you guys up here. Come on we won't bite and we'll even shout a beer or two!

No real complaints about the ATCOs standard. Yet to see R/T floggings or vectors from (to) hell.

One gent however has a habit of responding to pilots' readbacks of his instructions with a clipped "Correct..." or sometimes just a double click. Is there a requirement to acknowledge readbacks on UAE Control or departures? Why don’t other controllers do this?

Might be an old chestnut but why does Muscat invariably have no runway info for all the aircraft transiting through to Dubai?

One other question, when the Altn GND freq is used at Dubai, why isn’t this mentioned on the ATIS so a call and air-time isn’t wasted on 118.35?

Hey fly through, sometimes we need to pull out some really bizarre tricks out of the hat to achieve our ten miles, cos Muscat and Tehran decided to "help" us :uhoh: The expats in Muscat are great but the locals seem to have a great attachment to their aircraft and therefore don't want to give them to us until they are all on top of each other roaring into Bubin. As far as Tehran.. well nuff said.

As far as the visits go. We have tried to make it a part of our training but at this stage we get a trip to Abu Dhabi APP (Woohoo!) and thats it. I certainly have made many trips to Dubai and met many of the Dubai App controllers, but that was strictly personal :hmm:

There is no requirement to acknowledge a readback as being correct. Silence from the controller is acknowledgement that you got it right, and we'll respond only if something was readback incorrectly. The only time I would tell the pilot he got it right, would be for our Eastern European friends, who readback the clearance and finish with a big questioning upward inflection in there voice, and I will confirm he got it right rather than responding to the inevitable queries 2 minutes later.

We have no requirement to tell Muscat of the runway in Dubai, and I guess Muscat expects you guys can get the ATIS and find out for yourself. I do know this can be hard when Dubai change runway but the ATIS remains unchanged for half an hour :mad: