FT,

That is possible on some jets - I used to fly a glass Boeing which gave you the option of holding at present position. No knowlegde regarding the Airbus. On ours (a Classic, no Nav screen but with a reasonable FMC) you can hold at any point simply by telling it to. If there isn't a defined waypoint, you can create one up, enter and execute it and then create a hold. Not instant, but pretty quick all the same.

As I mentioned, we don't have a Nav display and when we tune the ILS (our NAV controllers can either have the ILS or VOR but not both) we lose a lot of our position information now the NDB has been de-commisioned. Therefore we tend to slow up earlier to prevent being caught out. The times we arrive (freight), we don't tend to get the guided tours so we are happy the way things are.

We are getting a NAV screen soon, courtesy of the european RNP requirements so things should be better.

It's plain from the lively comments passed that there a lot of Ppruners out there who deeply care about improving "the system" but it seems we have strayed a considerable distance from the original thread.

No, you're not alone many of us have heard their tirades. Their attitude is a stain upon the unit and the profession.

These guys must by now be aware of this thread. (Who isn't in the UAE ATC scene) A little inward reflection or even HRT would go a long way as a prophylactic against requiring the services of a good proctologist after being shown the way out!!

After reading 6 pages of postings here are my 2 cents.

1. First some very good posts and excellent discussion!

2. I work in Bahrain ACC and there has recently been a memo posted for job openings in Dubai...looking for radar/tower validation/ 5 years exp. I was told they are looking for 10 controllers. It has come to my attention that someone from the UK was recently hired with just over 12 months validated tower time and no approach validation.....scraping the bottom are we??? When I asked the "person in charge of hiring" why people with more experience are being turned away I was basically told to mind my business.. The problems do not only lie with the so called great Dane... it's also a local management problem.

3. Speaking of procedures and RVSM. UAE has a procedure that if they have not received an aircrafts flight plan via the AFTN (the system that transmits flight plans to the appropriate facilities) the aircraft is not allowed to enter RVSM airspace ... Even if we as BAH ATC confirm the aircrafts RVSM status they still do not accept these flights. Well what we predicted happened a few nights ago. THe UAE has a total AFTN crash... Just about every single flight had to be descended to FL270 or below before entering UAE aispace.. We are talking flight from EGLL to WSSS. Try telling a pilot at FL 390 he must descend to FL 270 half way through his flight. This time I do believe the GD is responsible for this procedure..

Moral of this story is that you can't always blame ATC because in most cases they are dealing with incompetent managers/regulators.

Last thing! Can you guys/gals flying through BAH Fir wear your headsets in the cockpit.. :)) "Say again Bahrain?!!?"

EuroATC
AFTNs don't crash per se. They have primary, secondary and tertiary routings. For a flight plan from say Bahrain to Karachi all stations on the route would get their copies by the primary link. Should this link fail they would get a copy by the secondary link etc.
If as you say that in this case UAE was not receiving flight plans then the cause would have to lie with Bahrain as they would have knowledge that the primary link was malfunctioning and therefore should initiate the switch to the secondary link.
Most stations have will automatic switching but perhaps in Bahrain they have a manual process.

Don't know the technical details but UAE was receiving practically no Flight plans from Bahrain and also practically no flight pans from Muscat, so I'm sure it was a UAE problem.

By the way it's not just a fuel burn issue, when pushing everyone down, it's a safety issue. Suddenly you have every man and his dog at the same level, not exactly what RVSM was supposed to provide.

vercingetorix..
it was a UAE problem.. i was working

No it wasn't.

Computer fault in Bahrain but this is immaterial and should not have stopped flight plans getting through as fall-back procedures are in place to divert AFTN traffic.

Trouble is that the fall-back unit refused diverted AFTN traffic.

What to do? :mad:

AFTN outages
 

Gents, you are missing the point!
WHO CARES why the AFTN failed or where!!!

The point is the ridiculous requirements of UAE forcing Muscat and Bahrain to descend aircraft that are RVSM approved FOR NO LOGICAL REASON!

Sorry about the shouting, but we have more than enough to do on our side of the fence without descending or in several cases in the past two days, climbing a/c from F270 up to their requested levels as soon as they clear UAE airspace.

If the pilot says he is RVSM approved...that should be the end of it. Up he goes!

Can some of the companies kindly complain??
Most service providers do tend to listen when the paying customer has a whinge.

thanks diving duck!! exactly.. who cares what failed.. and it's funny.. UAE seem to be the only ones who don't get the flights plans.. at least 1/2 dozen a day.. oh sorry.. it's our fault in Bahrain.. it's always our fault !! LOL

Hi Ferris

Quote
It's not very good. How do you intend to hold a/c closer to the field at up to 13 000' ? You won't get them down and they'll get vectors all over the place to lose height. The mechanics of holding mean that the longer the hold runs, the higher and higher the aircraft are (if the in-trail-spacing leaving the hold is less than the distance around a pattern). You would also have to deal with the low-level overflyers (C130s etc) and insertions (Kish Isl). Departures would also be held down for a long time. I still don't see the problem with holding as we are now, and APP owning the bottom 2 levels. Holding is a vertical thing, so I have no idea why you want a/c run INTO the hold with 10nm spacing. Bringing them OUT of the hold is where the spacing is achieved. Also, how is the problem of the vectors after holding addressed? Read the pilot comments. It is almost a safety issue that at the moment we bring them out 10nm or whatever spaced, then APP still has to synchronise east, west and AUH arrivals. Flowing for threshold arrival times solves all that. It isn't rocket science, and could easily be achieved either manually or via automation (MAESTRO etc)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okaaay, so the whole of Europe are doing it wrong eh? My experience prior to here is only the UK but I think we do ATC pretty well there.

Holding - A/c enter the hold at FL150 or whatever is appropriate depending on the volume of traffic. A/c are then laddered down in the hold to the bottom then they leave at 8,000 feet so you can hold much closer to the airfield. The holding stack is therefore placed 25 to 30 track miles from touchdown. DESDI and BUBIN are too far away from one of the landing direction (DESDI is good for 12 and BUBIN for 30 but not vice versa) so a 3rd stack is needed. Actually overhead the DUB would work nicely (when we get access to another non-airfield radar) and also allow a totally non-radar procedural system to be designed in case someone with a shovel cuts the essential cable. A/c would route DESDI - DUB for 30 and BUBIN - DUB for 12. Having the hold overhead then means it conflicts with the SIDs for the minimum time and a/c approach the field 'down the pipe'.

Sequencing is an approach task. Owning the bottom 2 levels of a hold is insufficient and inefficient. Just ask any approach ATCO what he thinks when he sees Area trying to manage a stack on 100nm range settings. It's painful to watch. Control of the stacks should be delegated to the airfield - it is virtually everywhere else.

The system requires that

a) Area control gets the a/c descending to around FL150 before the handoff (just above is ok but 10,000 extra feet of fresh air is unacceptable). If they are at least 6 miles apart in-trail and speeded then they can be transferred in the descent to separated levels otherwise they have to be actually level.

b) A/c come out the hold at the bottom having been laddered down to enable more a/c to go in at the top. In my experience it is very difficult to fill a stack so that area run out of levels unless there is a runway blockage.

If everyone is doing it properly (with the Dubai Coordinator becoming a tactical planner and / or stack controller) then Area will probably be dropping to FL150 all night without the need to hold higher.

From the hold a/c are radar vectored (in the UK) but with the proposed introduction of RNP 1 to the UAE in 2005, properly designed post-holding STARs may be usable. It doesn't really matter how they get from the hold to the ILS as long as they do it expeditiously. The pilots will be happy with that because they don't get taken on any more midnight cross countries. Proper application of speed control in the Approach environment is essential in high capacity operations. Also the matter of runway occupancy by a/c needs to be addressed.

Low level joiners are a pain but easily accommodated. I believe Gatwick in the UK still has these and they're fitted in without any gnashing of teeth.

It is a mature system that has been refined over many years and needs only ATCOs who a reasonable amount of ability and flexibility. What is also essential to integrating multiple stacks is training and practice which is where our simulators comes in.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This simplifies the task for everyone and gives the customer the best service
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Forcing them down early to hold at low altitude? Not exactly 'the best service'. Issuing gate or threshold arrival times so that sequencing can commence whilst still prior to TOD is a much better option for the customer. Especially with modern avionics. The AN12s etc just have to be 'pushed'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The better service comes from them getting on the ground safely and expeditiously with the minimum of delay from holding or sequencing. I have no experience of threshold arrival times so cannot comment on it. I am however willing to learn so tell me where this system is in use at another busy TMA operation with multiple airfields and I'll go look it up.

EuroATC

We take people with the correct level of maturity and experience. The controller you mention was valid at a very busy UK airport and has therefore proved their ability. That controller can teach the rest of us here in Dubai many things about how to operate a busy tower properly using modern techniques. I for one have no problems with employing people like this.

Unfortunately, many ATC providers worldwide are listening to their accountants not their controllers and are developing single validation units. If we want to continue to recruit high calibre people we have to move with the times.

Clipped wings
Yes we are getting off the original subject but the discussions that have developed are very valuable. Why go back - we all agree that those contollers behaviour is unacceptable. I believe one of them can change but the other just doesn't give a toss which makes it a management issue.

Please don't let this AFTN thing degenerate into a 'yes it is / no it isn't' type slagging match as this thread has been one of the few I've seen that has generated almost universal agreement amongst ATCOs and pilots.

regards

Granny

[off topic]

Flying into DXB this week UAE control and DXB appr requested us to give best fwd speed @ FL250. The 1900 doesnt go much faster then 190kts at those altitudes, however below +/- 17,000 FT we can fly 240 kts.

Yesterday I informed TWR we could do 240 till 5 nm out and asked the local twr guy to pass it to app as far as I got it he didn't pass it on.

So my question is does it help you guys out if we keep the speed up longer? And can you see on the radar screen we are speeding up to 240 kts.

The (relatively speaking) high speed of the B1900 are well known to Dubai approach and we use it to advantage (I hope).

I'm not having a go at the area guys but we've cringed watching them trying an overtake with a megajet and it just not happening. Then the poor old FC gets vectors half way to Iran and back.

Time to bring back cockpit visits (not much use on a freighter I agree) and familiarisation flights. Time also for more pilots to come visit ATC at either UAE centre or Dubai so we can get a better relationship going.

In answer to your questions:

- depends on whether you're no 1 or no 10 in the sequence. Generally faster is better unless told otherwise.

- we have a groundspeed readout on the aircraft's SSR label but if we're busy might not notice the speed winding up (or down). Failure to fly assigned speeds is a big problem at Dubai with many carriers (though generally not the B1900's) and this type of slackness has caused losses of separation in the past. So a general request - please fly the speed you are asked unless you need to slow down then ask or at least tell us you're slowing.

cheers

Granny

Granny,

A couple points, first the controller from the UK that was recently hired has barely 12 months validated tower time. Serco has a requirement of having a TOWER and APP validation with minimum 5 years experience.. this person only has 1 of the 3 requirements. It's pretty sad if you need someone with barely a year's experience to teach you all in OMDB. I know of a couple good controllers already working there that have suggested how to move more traffic.. i'm told the resistance comes from the management and the regulator. Just over a year ago, I along with another controller were turned down in Dubai because we did not have busy tower experience. We both had APP ratings with more than 5 years.. I am not at all upset for being turned away but my point is firstly don't have a double standard and secondly don't turn into an ATC school.... I thought we were here to provide ATC service.. not to teach approach control.

Second point, holding.. What you say is all a mute point really because it's all based on opinion. As the sytem in the UK works well the system in north america works just as well and we run just as much if not more traffic than most European airports. In Toronto if we needed to hold we would open the stack 40 miles out and it was the area controller who was responsible for it. Everything worked out great and we still managed to run 3-5 miles down each parallel runway. There are a 100 ways to skin a cat mate... of course everyone thinks their way is best....

Granny; No, not the whole of Europe. MAESTRO is a European invention. You appear to only be aware of what happens in the UK. Which brings me to Did you not understand what I said earlier? LHR has 4 stacks, feeding in up to 3 at a time from each stack, where the a/c have been holding long enough to be at the bottom. That won't happen at DXB. You need to come to the ACC and watch the holding. We essentially have only 1 stack, and the a/c aren't in it long enough (usually) to be at the bottom when they exit (especially the longer it runs- Area has so little airspace that there is no transition into the hold. It's 'on frequency, straight into the hold' at which point the a/c reduces both speed and ROD. We have a lot of problems pushing them down to free up the levels the ORSAR flyers arrive into our aispace at.) That isn't true. Holding isn't a TMA function. Controlling the flow out of the hold is. Agree totally. East and West manage the stacks on much smaller range. What exactly is painful about the way they are managed? What is painful is watching them come out of the stack then do another 50 track miles of vectors. I think what you mean is "it's painful watching the way the flow out of the stacks is managed". That is out of Area's hands. In your experience has LHR ever run 30nm in-trail spacing? Or the LHR TMA get itself into such a bind that they put out a call "hold everyone until further notice". Happens once a fortnight here. I have seen the holds fill on at least 6 occasions here in the last 12 months. You can't tell me there is a lot of planning going on. There is absolutely nothing to prevent that happening now, yet the "cross country" is a regular occurrence. Flowing to the threshold is a better way.
Finally You are. You obviously don't have much understanding of what Area does, so give it a rest. BTW, there are plenty of guys at Area who have loads of approach experience around the world (Toronto, HK etc) who shake their heads in disbelief at what goes on in the TMA- EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK. So why go there? We can sling arrows all day, but it won't fix anything.

Did anything come of the invite to the EK pilot meeting this month? That, I believe, might be the best way forward.

Managing holding stacks
 

Granny and others.

In my limited experience with holding (only 4-5 years in Brisbane Arrivals) Area has the 50 mile stacks (4 of them and regularly full) and holds from F130 upwards. APP have their inner (25 mile) stacks but they are rarely used as the Flow is done properly there.

generally the Flow will give set course times over the 50 mile points, the Area guys hit the times (either by vectors or holds), descend the aircraft to 7000ft, put on the speed restrictions etc etc. The Approach guy "tweaks" if necessary and keeps the inbounds away from the outbounds.

Not having worked in Europe, I can't say how they do things there, but the Aussie method seems to work well without a lot of fuss.

Now the Dubai method on the other hand....

Divingduck,
the last time I was in BNE in my megajet, there was a mega WX problem. The controller told me to cross XYZ at 250 kts at such and such a time.
Trouble was that the requirement required us to lose 4 minutes in 30 miles - impossible even for a reasonably good jock like me. We said that we would immediatley reduce to 250 kts, but were unable to meet the requirement. The response was "OK" and his attention turned to the others who were wandering all over the sky.
In the end the box of PFM was left to do its magic thing and we followed our 3D path all the way to the glideslope.
It is great to see all this interaction, but the aim of the game remains the same - safety and efficiency. We all want safety, that is clear, but none of us are using ALL the tools available to us to achieve efficiency.
Sadly, we probably aren't allowed to by those in higher authority.
:cool:

Hi Ferris

Yes I'm UK only - said that in my earlier post.

We watch way out past ORSAR on the COD position and appreciate that you have little time to get the a/c down. What are your standing agreements & liasion with Bahrain & Muscat like? Can they not start the process off for you? The UAE FIR is pretty small and obviously the problem goes further. A post by one of the Muscat guys earlier that answered a lot of our "why are they doing that..?" questions.

Just as there is not enough coordination internally within the UAE FIR units there also seems to be too little externally at the higher echelons and as usual we the ATCOs and the a/c crews are the ones who have to pick up the pieces.

What is clear about our holding debate (and we could go on firing ideas and counter proposals backwards and forwards for ever) is that there are many ways to do it, almost all of which are better than the way it is done now. I don't think there is any point continuing the holding debate on Pprune. We need to take it to a joint DXB / UAE ACC working group or whatever and thrash out a new system that we can all buy into. Are you involved in the promised-but-not-yet-forthcoming Airspace Review? It needs operational people from both DXB and ACC that are enthusiastic and committed to be involved right from the beginning or we'll just get another version of what we've got now & that would be a disaster.

What is also clear is that the standard of controlling at both units varies enormously. That is a problem that needs to be tackled asap and the sims need to be made use of more. One of our problems at DXB is becoming one of increasing staff disatisfaction across a wide range of issues such as pay & allowances, exchange rates, medical cover etc etc etc that is leading directly to greater apathy and less commitment to customer service.

Our senior company management needs to find ways to motivate the staff (not just with money - but that would be nice too) and some of the operational problems might also be reduced too. Customer dissatisfaction will eventually lead to an impact on the bottom line and contract retention issues. They might sit up and pay attention then. You only need to look at the different styles between BA & Virgin in the UK. BA puts the customer above all else - and has had 2 hugely damaging strikes in the past 2-3 years. Branson at Virgin puts his staff first realising that a happy workforce provides good service because they want to. Which model does Serco follow I wonder?

By the way, I'm REALLY not having a go at you area guys and yes I do understand what area does. Further details would compromise anonimity. Obviously you've got your gripes about the way we do things and vice versa - I found those 'beverage cruises' to be a useful way of getting to meet some of your guys and have a decent chat about the important things in life (women, beer and sport obviously). I've been for a visit to the ACC some time ago but should come down again. Liasion visits & fam flights should be compulsory. We've had a couple of your ab initio Nationals up for a cycle's famil which is an excellent idea but we need to see more of the older hands too.

Do you think having the ACC and DXB approach in the same room would solve a lot of these problems? What invite to an EK pilots meeting? First I've heard of it.

EuroATC

Like I said earlier, we need to be flexible and move with the times. I think Serco needs to recruit the most suitable controllers for the job regardless of most other considerations.

Yes there are plenty of people here with lots of good ideas - we have a Tech Comm that represents the staff and puts their ideas forward to management. It has had some success but, for a variety of reasons, not all of them can / have been implemented yet. That is an issue for DXB to tackle. In my opinion the local management is very pro change and wants to make the improvements that the staff put forward but have their hands tied at various levels for various reasons. I'm sure you know what I mean.

The UK controller in question does have busy tower experience that we at DXB can use to our advantage. The management here has changed - why not re-apply to the MATC again? Oh, by the way we are here to train. Serco's contract is to train Nationals to be ATCOs and eventually replace all the ex-pats. We provide the ATC service in the meantime.

yours concilliatoraly (if there is such a word - if not I've just invented it)

Granny

I hate to sound like one of the Three Yorkshiremen of Month Python fame, but ‘in the old days we…’ The fact is, in the old days, DXB ATC was damned good – and I still recognise many of the voices from those ‘good old days’, so it’s obviously not a question of the skill of the individual ATCO, but the rules they are now forced to work under. It all seemed to grind to a much slower pace about two to three years ago, when they had to go to five miles spacing on departures. I’m assuming there were many other new rules that were introduced at the same time.

Now I know the traffic is heavier than it was in the good old days, so my fond memories of ‘looxury…’ back then have to be tempered by that factor, but the fact is, the ATCOs are obviously working to a far stricter set of guidelines that will not allow on the spot ‘tactical’ decisions that would lessen the many logjams we seem to suffer these days.

Hear, hear. As a ‘customer’ of DXB ATC, on arrivals, my main complain is the post hold vectoring. It’s not unusual to approach Dubai with not a lot of fat in the noise-producing department – (maybe twenty minutes on average, but that can vary quite considerably either way depending upon where you’re coming from and what’s occurred in getting to Dubai with getting planned levels etc). Thanks to the usually benign weather in the area, most times that can be stretched somewhat thanks to the second runway/Sharjah option. If I’m put in the hold, I can work out, with a pretty good degree of accuracy, (even without the PFM box Mr Sperry provides me), my last divert time, be it for RAK, AUH or SHJ/the second runway. This last divert time from the hold includes a calculation for how much fuel I’m going to burn between leaving the hold and crossing the threshold.

In London, (which has to be the yardstick in my opinion for how arrivals at multiple, very busy airports should be conducted), you can be pretty sure, (to within 100-200 kgs in my experience), how much you’re going to burn between release from the hold and touchdown. The controllers there have even tweaked their system (thanks in part to an excellent thread that ran here on Pprune a year or two ago) to make allowance for the higher min clean speed of the 777-300. (If you’re in a heavy -300, anything below 230k really gobbles the fuel, so the ATCOs in Heathrow go out of their way to allow a -300 to stay at 230k until the final turn in to finals, with about 15 – 20 nm to run.) It would be really nice to see the same thing done in Dubai, the home port of all those -300s. Whilst on that point, 160k demands the gear be down in a heavy -300, and that really drags the fuel flows up. It’s not unusual to be asked for that quite early in the approach.

In Dubai, anyone who held right ‘down to the line’, (as we frequently do in Heathrow), could end up embarrassed because of the cross country vectoring between the hold and the threshold. (The speed control as mentioned above only adds to the difficulty.) Simply put, because of this vectoring, we can’t predict with any degree of accuracy how much fuel we’re going to burn between the hold and the threshold, so most of us add a ****** factor, which in the worst case, could lead to unnecessary diversions.

Most of these problems could be fixed if we talked to each other. I can only agree wholeheartedly with the comment made an earlier poster: It would be stretching credibility to the extreme if there was to be any security implication in allowing an ATCO onto the flight deck.

Coastrider, even though Granny seems to be under the impression that us Area guys know nothing about aircraft performance, we do realise that B1900's can do 240 IAS when on the descent (actually thought it was 245 kts but whatever). If by the time the 'Megajet', gets out of the 150kt jetstream that he is in, and is able to slow down to anything near 250 kts IAS, and I still have him close to 10 NM behind you guys I will happily keep you number 1. The problem we have that Approach controllers sometimes seem to forget is our aircraft aren't all similair heights, in similair winds, doing similair speeds, so it sometimes is a little hard to predict when and where the speed will come off. So Granny you guys might cringe, but instead maybe come and offer us direct UKRUM and high speed with our number 1 and that would be more helpful :ok:

By the way we do notice when you guys have increased to 245 kts, but its a double edged sword cos I've had you guys start an early descent so as to speed up earlier and stay number 1 but by descending early you get out of the tailwind and any increase in groundspeed gained from the increase in IAS, is lost due to the lesser wind.

Sometimes unfortunately with the big boys mixing it with the FC's and DHX's, it will always turn ugly no matter what we do, and someone will feel hard done by, but I assure you the majority of us do know what you can do, and try and accomodate as best we can.

Recapping a couple to work on....
 

DXB, change these things, please:

Now (on the ATIS):
"Dubai INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES"

SHOULD be:
"Dubai" <<<< now THAT's how it should be changed to. WE KNOW where DXB is. It won't reduce the "status" of the Emirate by not reminding everyone everytime where it is, for heaven's sakes. And imagine the time it saves us from listening, over and over again, to the un-needed. Stop it...please. You likely didn't start that trend, but stopping it will save everyone time and let us look outside BEFORE we hear "Traffic, traffic!" on the TCAS. OK that is a stretch, but it still will save time.

Next "now" (but not always, thankfully...) point:
Now: (Mains on rwy, nose almost....now the reversers are deployed, with max sound in the front office) "AB123, next right, hold short on Twy, Contact ground..." (HUH? What was THAT??) Too loud to hear, and tonnage does not stop on a full-stop - as in one of these.... >.<

SHOULD be:
"AB123, good afternoon, you are number 2, plan exiting taxiway Alpha, continue approach" so we can easily plan OR AT LEAST WAIT until the reversers are STOWED before issuing taxiing instructions!!

Last (for now): Have someone fix the STAR charts, please. They are ambiguous and can easily lead to violations (has happened recently...) or worse. Where is the hold, for example, if you aren't given clearance to pass beyond the STAR clearance limit (or go lost com)? Make a hold up and WHAM, metal meets metal. OK, another stretch....but remember we are stuck waiting to listen past the "...International Airport, United Arab Emirates" part of the ATIS. (insert smiley-thing here) Anyway, whoever de/redesigns the approaches, have a look at this issue.

Small gripes, maybe. Overall though, DXB = good ATC IMHO.
Cheers,
C.O.

Ok ok there are a hundred ways to skin a cat but we need to find one that we can agree on soon, before the customer gets shafted even more than they already are.

Only ever held all traffic until further notice once, when we had a bomb warning and every sheikh and his dog wanted to know about it :mad:

You don't think as approach controllers we hate the cross country vectoring too? We try to keep it to a minimum but sometimes in this system it's a necessity, being able to use a modern flow technique would be great but based on estimates that vary wildly in accuracy makes it difficult. Would actually make it easier if there was only one stack and everything went via Desdi, instead we have Bubin plus the inbounds from Darax & Miadi that don't have holds to go to.

Oh nice dig about the '30 mile trail' like we chose to work that way.....get real. Was down to bare minimum staffing on my past 2 nights and we avoided extra in-trail spacing completely (except for the odd fumble over a runway change :O ) by coordinating alot more closely with the ACC, so it can improve.

Does the ACC not understand the sector loading on approach? If director is closed arrivals can only have 5 being sequenced into Dubai or Sharjah on their frequency at once. If director is open then we have 8 on arrivals and 5 with director. Ridiculous rules but we're stuck with them so please no giving us traffic at itita!!

We need to get visits more often to each others units, not at quiet times but during the busy nightshifts, then we can really get an insight into each others problems.

Wiley, thanks for the post, learnt something new and will bare that in mind next time.

Coastrider, as you can tell most of us are well aware of your speed profile and make the most use of it, only tends to catch us out when you scream past the 10 mile point with a 777 ahead at 160 :}

Granny Smith, you don't think the whole situation we're are in is caused by management at all levels, new & old, not standing up to the Great Dane? No use in coming up with new ideas if we can never get them implemented. We need to start taking a pro active stance, ie. implement new procedures whilst keeping gcaa informed and if they have problems with it come to us afterwards.

FT

Granny Smith,

You should becomes a Serco manager.. that is if you are not already one.. because you sure sound like one from the things you write.

1. The management is identical now as it was when I applied.

2. I will never re apply to come to Dubai, I am glad I chose to work in bahrain where I am, we actually have a great working relationship with the local management and the Bahrain CAA are a bunch of great guys.. I would absolutely pull my hair out having to work with the incompetence that goes on in DXB on a daily basis.. moreover having to deal with the Aberdeen mafia.

3. Yes we are here to train locals.. not expats. Sorry you'll never be able to sell me on hiring someone who does not meet the min requirements. .. she's never sat at the approach radar and will now have to work the same number of days training as a local on the app. How is that profitable for Serco? I guess when no one is applying you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get warm bodies in the seats.. that part I understand.. don't give me the crap about moving with the times... if you want to move with the time.. up the pay and you'll get some quality guys from busy airports.

4. There are 2 guys in UAE that worked both Toronto and HK app, one of them is by far the best approach controller I have ever seen. Why don't you all give him a call... you want someone to show you how to run your operation? Call him.. don't hire a pretty little girl from the uk with 12 months on her license.

Flame Away

Euro ATC

Did you really need to add 'pretty little girl' bit? Or are you trying to lower what was a decent, productive thread into the usual slanging match? I'm impressed at how much you see from all the way over in Bahrain and also glad your happy there. Who said she'll be training in radar?

As for lowering the bar yeh I'll agree we can't get enough people, the package is just too pathetic these days and Serco management don't seem to want to do anything about it.

Incompetent????? What the :mad: would you know having never worked here? Do you hear me slating the standard of controlling in Bahrain? No never been there so won't offer an opinion. Same management? All changed in the past year so unless you know the facts, butt out & take the sour grapes somewhere else.

Fly through,

No sour grapes here mate, I know many facts you would be surprised. The manager that is there now is the same one who told me I needed a tower rating back in June 2002.

About the "pretty girl" thing, I have no idea if she is or isn't, never seen her. My point is why was she hired over others who applied at the same time with more experience. If this person in question will not train in radar then you would best advertise your new positions as tower or radar.. you might be able to fill seats a little easier.

You're right, it's not attractive to work in the middle east right now, the exchange rate is terrible and I along with a few others will leave here before the end of the year if the company does not do anything to protect us from the falling exchange rate.

About Bahrain, yeah there are problems here aswell, mostly equipement problems as our procedures are dictated by those who surround us. Seeing that most of our airspace is over Saudi, we have to play by their rules. There are 12 operational expats here and I have to say all are very good. Local management here does not hire people without the required experience. Even with this experience, there have been a number who have been unable to validate here in recent times. If you want to know about Bahrain ask one of your co-workers since he used to work here. Better yet, you're more than welcome to come on down anytime for a visit. I've been to your unit and seen how your operation works.. come see how mine works.

Hey Fly Through, just a bit of a suggestion here. We in Area understand about the sector loading with/without a director (we don't like it like you but we understand). The problem we have is we are very rarely told when there is a director working, so we don't have any idea how many aircraft you can take on frequency until we are told to keep aircraft on our frequency or hold them as they are approaching DESDI/BUBIN. This means our workload goes up and if we hold, it makes us look incompetent as we have spent the last 10 minutes vectoring the ass off guys trying to avoid them holding. We have just got our 10 in trail and we get the traffic loading call from you guys.

Wouldn't it be better for it to be procedure to call us when Director is not there, especially during busy periods so we have some awareness of the situation arising before it happens.

Instead (as happened 4 days ago) the North controller transfers an aircraft approaching DESDI, and then gets a call to keep the aircraft on frequency. On telling the snooty Coordinator that the aircraft has already been transferred, he recieved a bollocking about the fact that we should know that there are too many aircraft on ARR frequency without a director working and so he shouldn't have transferred the aircraft???? 1. How do we know there is no director, and 2. When and how do we accurately know how many aircraft are on the ARR frequency. To top it all off the North Controller concerned was told that he is "just an Area controller" (even though he has worked 20 years as an APP controller before he came here!!).

These occurances only widen the gap between Dubai APP and Area and helps noone, least of all the Aircraft.

OK guys,

Just before we actually start throwing stones (from our glass houses)....

Assuming that most, if not all commentary, on this forum is generated by the "working class", nobody here needs to justify or mitigate the employment of an individual who is not qualified (based on the advertised minima). If you are pi$$ed off, then take it up with the man at the top. Very few of us actually know who will be joining the ranks until they arrive in the Radar Room with a headset in hand. Hmm, actually, I forgot, they do put a mug shot on the wall nowadays... anyway; I think the point is made.

It is obvious that both UAE and DXB suffer from too little airspace too late in the flight. The solution lies in a joint strategy between ACC and APP, along with a common tool (software) that keeps us both in the picture based on it's recommendations.

ACC and APP both have ATC's from all over the world, and all have varying skill levels. They have come from units where ATM was conservative, liberal, restrictive and all other stuff in between. A common tool will put a single yardstick in place and there will be clear and obvious common procedures which are agreed and understood. Muscat, Tehran and Bahrain will need to have some sort of indication (auto) that keeps them in the picture and allows them to set up the aircraft as well.

In my opinion, this is the only way to make the system full-proof (pun definitely intended).

Invictus

Hi guys

This is hotting up to be a good old traditional slagging match - shame as we were getting on soooo well.

AirNoServicesAustralia

Obviously some of your guys (just like ours) don't understand a/c performance because everything I've said is based on personally witnessed fact. I know you're going to come straight back and say the same thing about DXB and you are absolutely correct - just another of the things on the To Do list!

I agree with you that there is a glaring problem in you blokes on North & East not knowing when DXB DIR is manned. Point taken & we'll try to do it better next time. I'm very disappointed that you were spoken to so badly by the COD controller as you describe. You should report that type of crap through you Supervisor to get the DXB Sup to take action as that is not acceptable behaviour. Despite the (mostly good natured) slagging we are on the same side.


EuroATC

Oh ******, have I been "Rumbled"? No, not a SERCO manager not Aberdeen mafia but I do still think you are wrong.

Your point 1 is incorrect - Contract Manager is the same but the rest are not.

Your point 2 is unnecessarily abusive. I'm glad you're happy in Bahrain.

Your point 3 is incorrect. The young lady in question certainly not the bottom of the barrel. We are obviously getting quite picky who we take - would you not agree? Do you include yourself in the "quality ... busy airports"? If I understand correctly from your last post you don't have a Tower rating? That'd be a problem then.
About the pay - I agree we deserve more but I have no say in that. The person in question is from the busiest single runway a operation in the UK so we are getting people with the required experience.

Your point 4 is also incorrect - she has 3 years valid experience not your less than 12 months assertion. Never let the truth get in the way of a good rumour. Your post is also sexist - but that isn't against the law here.

B1900 speeds
 

Just for my daily fix of anal behaviour:

The B1900 AFM dictates that the aircraft can maintain 247 KIAS to FL132, decreasing linearly to 192 KIAS at FL250.

Sufficed to say in the interests of simplicity, when Dubai asks me what speed I can maintain in descent I say 220KIAS to FL130 thence 245. It averages out.

I know we're small fry at Dubai but every little bit helps!

Well Granny I think you are wrong as well...

point 1. Yes contract manager is the same and he's the one who hires last time i checked so I don't know why you keep arguing this point, I could care less what management has changed.. til they make the hiring decisions is a mute point.

point 2 there is no abuse, it's my opinion based on what I know and also from a few friends I have who work with you. yeah it's probably a surprise to you.. I do indeed have many friends. :) Why is it when someone says the truth and tells things like they are.. it's considered abuse. politically incorrect etc.. etc.. Don't know why you are so offended.. I am not attacking you..

point 3 I respect your opinion and mine is that hiring someone without the adverstised requirements is scrapping the bottom of the barrel. I've worked in Ottawa and Toronto Canada, Geneva Switzerland and now in Bahrain. You're right, I do not have a tower rating, and the person you hired doesn't have an approach rating so what is your point?

point 4 Say what you want, I base my comment on this matter from facts. There was no sexism.. what there is indeed is.. double standards.

PM me, let me know who you are and next time I am in Dubai we'll have a face to face.. I always welcome good open and constructive discussions.

Hey 2daddies, next time I talk to you guys I'll be a real smart arse and tell you to maintain 247kts when able. As far as you being small fry, I can honestly say I will base the streaming of aircraft through my airspace based on what makes life easy for me. If I can keep you number one with a bit of a tweak to the 747 behind thats what I will do, whereas if by kicking you left and sliding the big jet through my life is easy then thats what I will do. Hope that clears things up.

Hey Granny Smith, the controller concerned did complain to our supervisor and got an apology out of the Dubai Controller concerned. So while the issue was closed, I thought it highlighted the growing antagonism between the 2 units. My feeling is we are well overdue for a long boat trip with lots of beers being drank where differences can be sorted out, and a feeling of comeraderie can be built up. If a few of the more problematic individuals go missing while out at sea, so be it
:E

Hey,

Let's just move the ACC functions to the New Approach Centre (Q4 2006) at Dubai, still part of the GCAA and all, just move the functions. I reckon that will be the best way to improve the OPS conditions between us.

No, seriously..

Invictus

It's a bit off topic but since there are so many UAE controllers I was hoping somebody would know the answer to my question.

The other day we came in from ORBI and I got a "land after" clearance, I am familair with this term from the time I was working in UK but is it a legal clearance in the UAE as I can not find in our manuals or the AIP.

P.s. sorry for upsetting the groundcontroller this morning with the ranbi request.

Coastrider,
I was on departures at the time. He just got confused and rang through to me saying you wanted to go vfr, when what he meant to say was you wanted an early left 'visually' ie. maintaining own terrain clearance. As I said at the time I prefer the early turn as it gets you clear of the next departing quicker and the tower guy can keep you insight thus reducing the required departure separations.

As for the land after clearance, you're dead right, not permitted at Dubai (even with 4km of runway!) but old habits die hard ;) We're allowed to clear you to land, though, with someone else on the runway, as long as a reasonable assurance exists that the previous aircraft will be clear before you cross the threshold.

Silky,
How about 'Turn right/left direct........ when established on track you have no speed restrictions' ok or too much in one go?

ANSA,
Count me in for the boat trip mate, missed the last one, think the company will spring for the beer? I know I'm a dreamer:rolleyes:

Was working with the controller concerned and we did give him some grief for you. Your right when director is open we'll try not to keep it to ourselves in the future :ok:

Rgds FT

Euro ATC,

Read all your comments about the latest recruit to Dubai ATC and your opinionated thoughts. Sounds like you're still really bitter about not being employed at Dubai. Have you ever thought that you are just not a good enough controller, and you may have the required length of experience but somehow I just don't think you would fit in.

Just for the record she has over 3 years experience at the busiest single runway operation in Europe and she is proving to be extremely capable here at Dubai.

Do you get your information from the Lebenadian??? Don't trust him - we don't, can you get him a job in Bahrain? The Jumeira telephone box is already booked for his leaving do!!!!!!

Nimmer..

I am not bitter at all, you are right, I would not fit in because I don't work beside incompetent people.. so sue me.

I do feel sorry for the person you metioned, his own co-workers making racial comments about him.

EuroATC

oooooooooooooooohhhhh, handbags at 50 paces!!

Quote
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"you are right, I would not fit in because I don't work beside incompetent people.. "
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...ah, but can your co-workers say the same???? ;)

p.s since when was 'Lebadian' a race? I thought it was a different planet - just joking.

Anyway, whilst this is very entertaining in a childish way, enough of the personal attacks & lets get back to the thread's subject please. :D

Granny Smith, you beat me to it.

Gentlemen please, this slanging match is not becoming, Euro ATC, give it a rest.
You have no idea about the competence of ALL of the Dubai controllers that you are disparaging, so it would probably be better to retire gracefully and agree to disagree.

Getting the thread roughly back on track, whoever said that it started to get more messy around 2-3 years ago is probably quite right.
That was when (for what seemed to us political reasons) UAE took over airspace and became the "piggy in the middle" of Muscat and Dubai.
The restrictions that were immediately placed on the aircraft did cause some concerns, back in the good old days, we just rang Dubai APP, and he would be happy to take, 5 miles, vertical or a combination of the two..I remember one telling me that it didn't matter, downwind was a long and lonely place and they only needed 3 miles!
Now of course we have silly vertical restrictions of F270 by TAPRA and PASOV (for all the pilots out there..this is NOT a Muscat requirement, we would by far prefer not to have to say it) and now two entry gates that don't have to be separated. Easier for us, but of limited value to the airlines that get slowed down or vectored for a trail through one or both points just to have it happen all over again by UAE.
I did mention earlier in this thread...if you are having to go to holding, 20 mile spacing or whatever...dont' keep it a secret!

There has been loads of good stuff about how we can improve the ATC interaction between UAE and Dubai. Yet nobody has mentioned the glaringly obvious, how awful the basic ATC procedures are at Dubai!!!

Pilots read on with interest. All the STARS end at the same place and at the same level, about the 10 mile final point. If your are ever left to fly the full procedure hope you are the only inbound!!!

The SIDS out of Dubai and Sharjah conflict, all climb to the same level and head for the same point . The Tardi out of Sharjah being the best, this brilliant route crosses the Dubai centre line at the 3 mile point at 3000 feet. I always thought these things had to be decided to be procedurally safe!!! If this wasn't enough the routes then conflict with all the inbounds aswell, brilliant isn't it???

The man who designed this isn't willing to accept any changes or new ideas to improve the system, great!!

Add into these factors that we have to use 5 mile radar separation and we have an ATC system designed by MICKEY DONALD and GOOFY, welcome to DISNEY ATC!!!!

Oh and just one more point, operated low vis procedures today, wait for this 15 mile gaps with no departures, and a 30 mile gap required to get a departutre airbourne. Lets just turn the radar off!!!

The only thing that makes the aircraft move are the controllers, just keep working hard everybody, the pay makes it worth-while, we know SERCO cares!!!

Now Nimmer, the sun is shining, the sky is blue, reelllaaaaaaxxxxx! Better just take what little money we do get and go hit the beach 'cos nothings gonna change around here anytime soon.

Oh and you UAE controllers, okay telling you when director is open, passed on our sector loadings, so why do you still give us aircraft at Itita when we're on 30? Earliest we want is on 30 at Desdi or 5 to run to Bubin and on 12 at Bubin and 5 to run to Desdi. Simpler? Draw a 60nm radius circle around our 10 nm final point. We didn't come up with this bloody system but give us a chance!!

FT

Hey Nimmer,

This is Labadian here. Is that your girlfriend that got hired? Sounds like it to me. Have no fear, I will leave when I want. Her CV states that she graduated from NATS College dec 2000. Began her training in Gatwick in Jan 2001. That is not experience my friend. Anywhere in the world they would politely ask you to re apply when you have an IFR ticket and are out of diapers. I could not care less about her hiring if it was not for my child being without her mother because she only has 14 years of IFR experience in one of the most complex sectors in europe and that is unsuitable for Dubai (MAX 5 Planes) Control. It is nice to be british hey?
So as much as I have no problem with you or your girlfriend, I have a serious problem with the incompetent management that is running this place and I am not afraid to speak my mind. P.S. Do you still put your pen on the radar screen everytime you vector? So Accept the fact that who gets hired here has nothing to do with experience cause she has none. Single runway ha! clear to land clear for takeoff. I am excited now. What goes around comes around...
Sorry about the use of this forum, I feel a lot better.

Breaking every stupid rule and proud of it, for the sake of service !