Please define a "Proven track record" I have 12000 hours but having spent the last decade working for my ever shrinking national carrier I never got a command on a jet (that mythical and oh so hard to fly beast) Yet I have operated on long haul wide body ops all over the globe. I haven't been at Emirates long, but I have been there a darn sight longer than any DEC.

Is this a proven track record? My last company didn't sack me, I didn't crash any aeroplanes & I manged to get through the EK selection procedure (unlike many DEC applicants)

You see I am confused, once you become a captain are you so much better? Is it a case of once a captain then always a captain?

Whilst the management make their decisions whether we like it or not, it does gall me somewhat to listen to tripe from colleagues basically disparaging every EK F/O

As for 411A, are you familiar with the word "Tosser"in the USA, I suggest you obtain a British published dictionary.

411 I am one of those "Stupid" Captains who is willing to give up his command and go to Emirates as an FO. The reasons behind people's decisions vary. I am flying for one of the UKs charter companies on the bus and I want a more stable roster, a better quality of life. I am confident enough that when the time comes I will get the Command with Emirates. Airmanship, decision making, character is a requirement for both pilot seats, and not just the left seat. It is not a title bestowed by the aviation gods to a few chosen ones. Captaincy is about humility, service, compasion and experience. The guys I saw at the Emirates interview fit these criteria, so the next step is Company needs. I am not management, and I cannot speak elloquently about the needs or reasons behind Emirates decision for DECs but sometimes it might not be as evident as we think. I am taking a decision to go to Emirates, it is not a risk, it is not a move out of necessity, it is by choice. The seats upfront are a for those of us who are privileged enough to be doing this job. It is for some of us a job, for others an occupation, for others a profession, and for some it is a passion. I can understand if you are trying to pass on wisdom, or even experience, but it does not fit the profile of a true aviator to be arrogant, spitefull and rude towards those who are flying in the right seat. I believe that someone with your experience should have the wisdom and understanding to be honest, yet encouraging, careful yet with hope.
Skyslave

I am not sure if the second previous response was directed to me,but I'll answer <bfg>.

I DON'T know how other airlines determine who is and who is not ready for upgrade. The first 34 years of my aviation career were in a union/seniority system. I was so lucky to be able to have my first opportunity after 21 years to upgrade <bfg> and I took it and even other chance to move up with all of the Boeings. That was the right choice for me each time in restrospect.

In a non-union-non-seniority based system, someone in management and the training center makes the decision. Time and hours have some bearing, but certainly not all that goes into the decision.

Exactly what EK does is outside of my area of knowledge and responsibility. Tht is why pprune is here for those in the know to tell us.

I personally would not take a job on a "maybe" and a whim unless I had some idea of the future and had in writing what my future would entail. Time has a way of taking its toll. That's why each of us has to make our own choices and one is not necessarily good for everybody.

Just watching this with interest.
Can someone answer this; does rostering take into account the Capt and FO match? Is, say, a 500hr-cadet-FO paired with a particular Capt, or are there designated Capts to take these 'new' FOs ('training Capts')? Just wondering if that has anything to do with raising the upgrade requirements?

Skyslave,

You have a decision to make, go to EK as an F/O, maybe upgrade in 3 years time, then get your captain first year salary.

OR stay in your current airline as a captain, until you get the capt. hours for a DEC (presuming you dont have the hours right now). And then go to EK as a DEC, and make the equivalent of a 5th year capt... (Less the seniority, for what it's worth)....

Its your decision....:ugh:

Sky Slave, welcome aboard...Ferris, there are restrictions with crew pairings but they are not so limiting as to influence the upgrade requirements.

Max AB thank you.
Menard you are correct, I do not have the requirements for DEC, but rather than waiting two years to get the requirements I can go now that the opportunity came up. I am sure that there will be opportunities within Emirates to upgrade in the future. Some will say that it is not wise, I say maybe yes, maybe not, I surely joined to be a pilot not just for the money, but for the fun. In the long term the difference of a few thousand pounds is a few holidays, or a few toys.

Skyslave,

Having a life and a good time is important, always keep it this way....If you are moving in DXB for those reasons, you will get what you are looking for. Be patient with everything....:cool:

If those who are Commanders now, and are intending to join EK as First Officers, clearly do not meet the specs for a DE Captain position.
So, they will have to wait for the upgrade, if it comes.
Have noticed a few at other companies, who joined with the same ideas, watch as DE guys were hired, and paid accordingly, while our intrepid hero sat in the right seat...gear up and shut up.

Up to them of course, but suspect they will post here in about a years time that all is not rosey in the desert...indeed just as many have on this forum.
Some are very naive when it comes to overseas employment, especially when the company changes direction, sometimes with little notice.

Have Pity
 

2630 posts and they all say exactly the same thing!

For God's sake man, either reach down deep within and dredge up a modicum of some self-respect or give your poor, bruised nose a break. How else are you typing whilst sporting a strait-jacket?

Do you not realize people are trying to have a conversation here?
It's like being at a dinner party where a baby at the end of the table keeps bringing up pureed peas. Distracting at best, emetic at worst.

Do you have no one who can take you in hand?

This could get even more interesting.
(How do I change the font size real small as to whisper) Hot this week is we're trying to find 10 more aircraft. We're running at nearly 100% capacity so somebody is doing something right and our jobs look as secure as any other in the industry.

Very funny!
 

Laughed at that one. But like it or not 411A does represent another opinion that based on the evidence available just may be supported by EK management. Makes you think doesn't it?

Hope nobody drowned in the downpour today!
UAE
:bored:

Gee 411, and this hasn't happened at home in the good old U.S of A?

Guys can sit and wonder "what if" till the cows come home or make a decision on the facts as they stand right now. Nothing is certain when you join any company, all you know for sure are the conditions on the day you sign up. If you accept this then you should be prepared for any changes, not still sitting at home waiting to see if prophet 411 is right or wrong.

Right you are, maxAB.
If one should want to be an EK Captain, the concerned individual should join as one.
A really simple scenario to understand.:E

411A is a old friend, cum windup merchant, who's windup on this thread has really high-jacked it. I've given him a few days in the cooler before we unleash him on you again.

4HP

To take a little of heat off ol' 411, can those of you in the region put a PRIMER on about why EK and the surroundings appear to be doing so well with the economic environment? I've spent most of my time in Europe, Asia, and North America, so I am asking for anyone to take a shot at why aviation and the economy seems to be doing so well around the UAE.

Now I realize them hills have oil. Does this industry spread and make the economy very strong down to people who want to take vacations or is most of your travel high yield business trips to places east and west? There's no Opera house, Eiffel Tower, ggod pubs, Golden Gate Bridge, Grand Canyon,so I don't think that is why most people wouldn't jump on a plane to fly there especially from certain regions of the world.

The weather stays way too hot in summer and is reasonable most of the year. At least no snow to shovel.

Does any one have any population figures?

What does one do for a few days in Abu Dhabi?

Open to your ideas and even 411 can reply!!!!!

JM - always plenty to do in Dubai, probably in Abu Dhabi as well.

Skyslave, there certainly will be lots of upgrades in the future, both long and short term. If you're after lifestyle then you'll love it here, that's the reason I came to EK. Also you get to fly new (mostly) aeroplanes, the route structure is very varied and about to become more so.
I'm personally having a great time, although I do have to say that a few things within EK could do with changing, but as we keep hearing "it's under review":p :p

At many airlines things are"under review". It would be better sometimes if they would have a "drop dead" date and if it doesn't happen by this day...it won't happen. Days go pretty fast sometimes with no changes. Sorta like waiting at the other end of looking for a job!!!! They often go reaaaalllly slow!

On Abu Dhabi, I've only been there once and was alone. It was 45C and I know that was not the norm. But I've spent time in a shopping center and looked around town in what appears to be safe. I suppose I'll walk towards downtown on the next trip. I heard there was an old town and obviously I can see the "new town" from a few miles. I like to walk and look for something to do. But is it safe if you don't wear the local "garb". I don't own a Mercedes, I don't have a camel, I don't smoke cigarettes,I don't have a local cell phone, I know no one, and wouldn't know where to walk into a pub IF there was one.

There are rental car agencies and I heard that a drive is certainly possible from AUH to DXB,but what would one do when they got there? Are there any good web sites with suggestions.

The average world citizen (yanks or not) think that area of the world is like driving a Bradley tank across miles of sand with the potential of being shot, blown up, and tortured. Every day you see blasts across CNN and the BBC about Iraq. I realize AUH and DXB are not Iraq. But I am just trying to open up some dialogue so that I don't have to sit and watch TV over and over. You can only do so many revisions!!! And you can only eat breakfast once or less.

It's arguably better to live in AUH, because if you get bored, you can always go to DXB!
Jim, you are safer here than anywhere I can think of in the world. Crime is so low it is almost non-existent. This is evidenced by the rows of Mercs lined up in front of the shops during summer, with the keys in and engine running (to keep the aircon going). Where else could you do that? I can only recall seeing a fight in a pub once. I have only heard of someone being burgled once, and they were in Oman. Single females can walk thru the centre of town at any hour. Get the picture?
Before we go too far off topic (and I go thru all the negatives), maybe you should start a separate thread.

ps things to do (quickly). Centrally located to lots of interesting places, so travel. water sports, outdoor sports (half the year), indoor sports (other half), desert driving/camping, diving, clubs/hobbies (motor sports, Rc, ultralights, yachts, kite surfing etc). Just about anything, if you look. Ski fields of Lebanon, Romania etc not far away. Like anything, it's up to you. You can sit around and do nothing (plenty do), or do as many things as you want. There is even a small ice-hockey league.

JM,

Thought about a sarcastic reply and thought better of it. AUH is not a bad place, more "local" than DXB but still not so bad. You will be safe anywhere you walk at any time of night wearing whatever you want. There are plenty of bars down there and most are OK from what I've heard. DXB would be the better place to go to though. AUH has great sailing and lots of very nice islands off it which the expats go to for camping and BBQ etc.

Back on topic again and I may be very ignorant in what I am about to say but it wouldn't be the 1st time and wont be the last:

It appears the DEC are coming in to fill the extra aircraft brought in on short notice. It would have been great had training been up to speed but wasn't. This seems to be the crux of the problem. Hopefull ythis will resolve itself and when the rest of the orders start to come in the number of DEC ill slow and those moving right to left will increase. I hope it works out for you all, it's a great country to be in and all in all I find EK not such a bad place to be.

Desert Nomad

Someone once said something along the lines of..."if it flies, floats or fcuks... rent it" ??? ;)

Hope you've got lots of dough !! :ok: :ok:

Jim Morehead,

Personally was flying thru (and based in) the Arabian Gulf long before most of the guys at EK could even find it on the map.
Always prefered DXB (over AUH) as there always seemed more to do.
A good friend of mine had a rather big boat (60' loa) and was always accomodating. 'Tis the best way, knowing someone with a boat...and far cheaper.
Prices (in general) are certainly much higher now than just a few short years ago.

If you go to work there, get everything in writing, as many will lie, lie, and lie again unless it's in black and white.
Wishful thinking just does not work in that part of the world, and never has.

51yrs old with a 4 yr old daughter!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What ever you do now Dave,enjoy it...cause you are gonna have a hell of a retirement looking out for the teenage daughter and it's bloody hard holding the shotgun straight with dimentia:E

Ferris, just to add to your post, another reason crime seems so low here is it isn't reported unless it is solved. Unlike the west there is no free flow of information from the police and justice system to the media. If someone is assaulted downtown in the small hours, unless you know that person or it is instantly solved with the perpetrators in court (unlikely) you won't hear or read of it. Yes it is safer here than most western cities but I am under few illusions as to the actual versus reported crime rate. Burglaries are not uncommon either.
JM, if you hire a car and drive to Dubai watch your rearview mirror. The driving here can be exciting and the biggest threat probably comes from the kid coming up behind you at the speed of heat in daddy's Merc.
Rgds
UAE

The reason EK has started to recruit DEC is not only due to the mass expansion BUT the Yanks have told them so. They are unhappy with the inexperience F/O getting in the left and operting to the East Coast in Winter,Infact,CAA has been notified of an average of 20+ go/arounds a month been logged in the Tech Log in the last six month!!

huh? you must be good

"the yanks have told them so!?"

That's a good one, I wonder if the "yanks" realize that the majority of the DEC Airbus guys coming in, as well as new upgrades, will only be flying the A330 for the first year. There are a few acceptions of course but not many, before Company policy (yeah I know that will more than likely change as well) will have them doing the A340 course.

Besides the A345's are currently manned by the senior Airbus skippers (for the most part), you know the ones who have been on 'buses for quite some time.

JABAL

Where did you hear that!

Perhaps if the company looked within and saw some of the experience already available, things might move on.

There are F/Os with East and West coast widebody experience!

Are you ready?
I was born ready!:ok:

helen and gang!! please don't shoot the Meesenger. The europeans and co are keeping a close eye on EK operation.it's only the few who managed to get through the safety net that EK has tailored will be under "SCRUTINY". ;)

Gerbil, its fine to shoot the messanger if he is the originator. National Authorities keep an eye on all operators into their countries (or they should). 20 go rounds a month...for what reason, are you suggesting that a go round is an example of an unsafe practise...I think the reverse is true.

So the "Europeans and co" are keeping tabs on individual pilots are they? more crap.

Obviously too much fertiliser in that fertile home of yours

max AB, I whole heartedly agree with you, Its safer to G/A and return, Rather continue and end up at the end of the golf course as Qantas 744 experienced couple years ago in Bangkok ;) BUT with a Company as Reputable as EK, 20+ G/A a month is a bit questionable, Considering the interview selection is very exclusive!!!!!!!! :cool:

'scuse me Gerbil but on what statistical model do you base the GA rate on? ....the sun baked one?:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

responses to my EK questiona
 

want to say thanks to all wh responded to my queries. i'm the twa/aa guy who thought about coming to EK. i liked the humor, also! your answers/coments made up my mind that my lot is not as bad as i perceive it. i will not come, so that one more f/o can upgrade to capt. i wish all of you ther the best...dave

Savings
 

How much a new joiner DEC would save montly (no 5 star restaurants, designer's clothes etc...) with two kids on good school, wife and normal expenditures?

FF,

I'm just finishing my first year. With 1 kid, we haven't saved a dime. In fact, we've come close to dipping into our savings a few times. I'm told that that is typical for the first year. I would hope to have a modest savings program next year. Probably no more than 400-500 USD per month.

Having said that, we do balance living and savings. It'd be tough to live here if you didn't open up the purse strings and live a little.

Bottom line is that EK is not a get-rich-quick type of ex-pat job. Over the long haul, I think it will work out, but short term...

I agree with Bus, this is not a get rich quick type of airline job. You will have to work at it long term. I have been with the company almost ten years, six of which as a Captain and probably only really started saving anything significant (2 500 USD p/m) from about 3 or 4 years ago. I know of people who have managed to save more but with a big sacrifice in lifestyle which I dont think is the way it should be done! You can't live on Schwarmas and its nice to get the kids new bicycle's and give the wife a reasonable allowance. Dubai is an expensive place to live and we have watched it get more expensive virtually by the month. Doesn't make sense though as I would have thought it would be cheaper to bring in household items, meat etc with the drastically increased demand over recent years compared to the early days. I think there is a lot of greedy business going on out there.
New FO's with families will certainly not be able to put much if anything aside and bottom notch Capt's will also have to play things carefully if they want to save anything substantial.
Anyway, no one ever said it would be easy in the desert!
We are still having fun and lifes too short to worry about money so try and stick a bit away for the future without sacrificing too much lifestyle and keep buying that lottery ticket - you never know?

Fish,

The argument works for sad UK types but not people from warmer climbs. Throwing aside the job completely.... The 'Big Picture' is that there are roads outside of Dubai and the motherland.

You seem to have a high opinion of the Sheik Zahed or Emirates Roads, not sure of your criteria. Taking view, safety and the opportunity to live in a garden spot away from smogsville. I'd take the Pacific Coast High just north of San Diego or south of San Francisco. The entire East Coast of the good ole USA particularly through the Great Smoky Mountains and most roads in Oz or NZ.

These options get rid of the grey and dreary, get rid of a lot of the traffic, get rid of the high cost of living and introduce things like seasons, leaves falling, grass turning brown in the winter and back to green during the spring. A short sharp winter and a long hot summer without going above 35°C....Now that is the 'Big Picture'


Cerberus:=

Please don't tell me people come here for the weather!!!

Fish Perhaps you are a Fish out of Water??



When I worked out of Gatwick I never had to go anywhere near the M25 and the times I usually reported for duty were rarely in the rush hour. The trouble with a lot of Pilots in the UK is that they never seem to want to live anywhere near their workplace which makes the job even more horrendous than it already is.

Still in EK that is not a problem as you have to live where they put you or take the Rental Allowance.

Still it is the Lifestyle you are there for as you tell us.

Max AB I believe some do go for the weather.!! :confused: :confused:

Retirement
 

Dear Bus Canuck, 7550 and Fish, thank you guys!

Now, speaking about retirement, how much would figure taking after, say, 7 years with EK?

Are you all Capt with EK?