Laura,

how do you feel about allegedly "knocking back the DEC offer" at EK due to conditions? “did not realise the conditions were a lot less than a normal Capt at EK”? The pay is actually more (check the website, if it's still written there). Up to, what is it, about 27000 Dhm/m or so??

Still stand by your decision?

phat boy Re Laury and DEC EK. I think you will find that Laury is an A320 Capt who applied to EK thinking he would only be considered as an F/O but found he was up for a DEC Position. If I am wrong then I am sure he will correct me.

Maybe as an A320 Capt he did not feel confident enough to go through with joining EK with all the attendant risks of a new Aircraft and new Routes?? Especially with a perhaps unhelpful bunch of F/O's and maybe resentful Training Captains to deal with as well!?

To all potential DEC's & other Ek outsiders watching this thread with interest:

It should come as no surprise for any who have frequented this forum over the past few months that the pilot morale/job satisfaction within EK has plummeted to an all time low in such a dramatic fashion. Therefore, do not be surprised or upset by the comments from some within the company when pertaining to the DEC's.

When you double the workload of the training department and then in the same stroke cut their training salaries in half (there goes the support of the Training department); when you demoralize the F/O's by virtue of changing their terms and conditions to gain command and then almost in the same breath parachute DEC's ahead of of an extremely talented and experienced group of F/O's because they now do not have "the experience" (on an established seniority list; both expat and local; many with thousand of hours of command time; there goes the support of the F/O's!), and then you piss off the line Captains by being offering a starting salary for DEC's 10-23% above the starting salary currently paid to the Captains who joined this company in the "not so rosy" times and helped to build this company to where it currently is (there goes the support of the line Captain's) and it should be clear to you why the attitudes present are justified. If there was a ever a way to totally mismanage the pilot workforce I have yet to see a management having done so with such speed and efficiency.

To those who are planning to benefit from the offer presented (or who have accepted), I offer no disrespect. However, I would think it very naive of anyone currently applying to think they will get any help with the recruitment process from those currently within the company (in any capacity, as I have already alluded to) nor any support from those within the company if/when you arrive.

Best of luck to all that apply and good luck to those who have accepted; I really hope you did you homework because you are in for an education. I just hope to hell you didn't leave a good job to come to this outfit because in due course you are going to be just one more of the growing numbers who are shaking their heads at the mistake they made.:ugh: :ugh:

very well said dune. important to add unlikely to see outright hostility from the incumbents toward DECs despite the depth of ill feeling. Militancy not tolerated and professionalism still abounds amongst pilots.

aspirants do yourselves a favour and read dune's last paragraph again.

Not a laughing matter but..... hehh hehh hehh... anyway.

Dune You say you have not seen an Airline management act with " speed and efficiency" to upset their Pilots. I have, because here in SIA the management have been behaving in this manner for years,although DEC's are not a problem here but in everything else EK mirrors SQ exactly.

Until Pilots stop applying in droves to these companies then expect more of the same!

Millerscourt:

Can't comment upon SIA but judging your comments it sounds like SQ and EK management are in a competition to see who can mismanage their pilot workforce the worst! At this stage I give the lead to the EK bunch. It will be really interesting to see a few years down the road once the world's aviation outlook has improved and worldwide hiring has begun to see how many stick around these outfits. I suspect more than a few will leave for greener pastures (literally as well as figuratively).

As you said, until pilots stop coming to these companies the practice will continue, as there is no impetus for the management to change. As such, I think it is important to get the message out to the community on this website so at least those who are blinded by the shiny airplanes and empty promises will know exactly what they are getting themselves into. Foretold is forewarned.

All this is sad and unfair, period.
But we must keep in mind that it is dictated, like a lot of things today, by the MARKET FORCES!
One day, experienced pilots will be a rare asset again and will be threated with the due respect, otherwise they will flock to greener pastures...
It is naive to try to convince professionals under present poor packages (or none at all!) not to apply to an unfriendly outfit.

Pure bloody poetry Dune

Just call it like I see it L.L.

Should the promised "review" yield any substance I will be the first to beat the drums for the EK band but until then I sure as hell ain't married to this outfit and I call a spade a spade.

No doubt about it, once the pilot market picks up people will leave companies like EK in their droves, and the co. management, bless them will look at each other with puzzled looks and wonder why it is happening.

Millerscourt,
yeah I know he said all that but I wanted to see if he had anything more to say.

The thing is, he also said on the 13th of Nov (page 1 and 2 of this thread) he had an interview coming up. Then on the 24th, he said he’d been offered the job “last Friday”. I presume he meant the 21st.

A quick look at the calendar and you see this leaves only a single 5 day period for the 5 day DEC interview process and means they would need to have offered him the job either on the Wed practically as he left the sim or on the Friday (local equivalent of a Sunday, and none of the team work Thursdays or Fridays -ie the weekends). He says it was the Friday.

I think someone’s telling little Porky Pie lies around here. In fact I think someone's not even a pilot. Sad to have to mention it, at all, but I hate the idea of some flog spinning BS on a topic that is obviously important to a lot of people.

Read the other comments on those two posts and the smell of BS is even stronger

Surely any DEC will have the Salary agreed in writing in the offer of Employment from EK and therefore forms part of the contract???

If indeed EK are renaging on the agreed Salary then they are learning fast from SQ cos that is exactly what SQ have done!! Thay have also discontinued the 10% Provident Fund without any consultation and won't even payout the money until one leaves in order to ensure no Pilot's disappear in the Night!!!

The managements of EK and SQ are vying with each other to see who can be the most contemptable. Looks pretty even at present.

Apparently 2 DEC courses have been canx in Jan/Feb due to not enough people & drop outs from the course.

Rumor is that accel command req are going to be brought back down to original levels...surprise, surprise they can't get enough people for the left hand seat!!!!!!!!!!!!

sluggums Can EK even get enough recruits to sit in the RHS?


New joiners are going to have to wait a very long time for Commands if one can believe that EK is packed full of experienced high hour F/O's as certain contributors say it is.

With EK going real long haul with two F/O's and just one Captain then Command prospects look bleak for new joiners.

Perhaps EK will have to lower the hours requirements in order to get F/O's to join who are prepared to sit for many years in the RHS??

syd and jfk, the real long stuff 2 crews. new comers will be longer than 3 years as that is just the min right now. i don't think the mins are going to change but the higher time fo's are not appling so they will have to be happy getting guys with just the mins and for those an upgrade in @ 5 years is not that bad, the big thing is the fo payscale for those 5 years

millerscourt, possibly, but with much lower nos. applying for RHS. Dubai is an expensive place to live and the FO's pay is meagre...in my humble opinion.

Sluggums, Just when is this much touted Pilot shortage going to happen? I have heard the term for at least 20 years and it never happens.

I can't see pilots (or anyone else for that matter) leaving EK "in droves", it is an exciting and dynamic place to be and you can't say that for much of the rest of the aviation world.

Sure, you might get more cash in China or Vietnam.....but try persuading your wife or kids that that is the place you ought to be!

Phat Boy

In reference to your comments re my situation, as usual you are a smart a...se.
But to answer your question:
In the interview I asked what my salary was compared to line captains in EK. I was told that mine was alot less. Maybe they were testing my response.
I asked because all I actually wanted was to be on the same salary as others. There is nothing worse than having different pay scales for pilots who do the same job. I have experienced A and B scales before and it sucks (although a reality). You are forever watching what you say in reference to your package as the person next to you may not be on the same conditions.
So I hope that answers your as usual pig headed post.

Mr Knight,
It's great that you have the 'glass is half full' outlook in regard to the company.
Personally I'd be more than happy to spend a few years in either China or Vietnam, or commute from somewhere to work there. Both places are rich in history and culture and I'm sure are exciting and dynamic but exciting and dynamic don't pay the school fees.
I'll have to go with the better lifestyle through more dirhams in the bank team. I guess that makes me a drover.

I don't understand what is going on at EK. I wanted to apply as FO, but since I only have A310 type (and 1500 on type), but not the 2000 Hrs over 20 tons, or whatever the new requirement is, I didn't apply. I have nearly 6000 Hrs and all the other experience.
I now see a posting for A310 typed people. Do the new higher minimums apply?
Why are they turning experienced people away with the silly new FO requirements. As it stands, if you have lots of experience, you don't want to wait years for a command,so won't apply, and if you don't have any experience, they don't want you anyway. Who is going to captain their aircraft 5 years from now?
I am confused, and I don't know whether I am now eligible to apply anyway.
I will be in Dubai for an interview (obviously not with Emirates), next week.
If someone could PM me prior to meeting in Dubai, I would appreciate it . It would be good to have an insider's perspective.
Thanks, Rosbif

Rosbif,

Nobody here is certain about what's going on either. EK's recruitment is in turmoil. The team involved are working their asses off to meet company requirements (my hat off to them!!), and those requirements are in a state of flux...... to say the least. My suggestion to you would be ....apply anyway. At least you are then commencing an application history with the company, so when your expereience does meet the requirements (whatever they might be!?) they can see your interest goes back awhile. Also, if they change the requirements you're already on file. Just a thought.....

Best of luck!:ok:

laury, I can't help being a smart-ares, sorry. :{ :{

But your date(s) still smells bad. ;) That timing sounds very dodgy. Did they offer you the job the day you finished the interview???

And as for pay, why would they tell anyone the pay is LESS than existing line capts when in fact it was (at the time) higher?

Unconvinced :rolleyes:

Just to butt in...

Emirates (from a distance) always seemed to be a place where a fella could earn a lot of tax free money in a short period of time. Prime reason for anyone being an expat.

But the 16,700 dirhams posted on the careers website translates to Aussie$5,900 /month, or about AU$70k.

That does not seem like much when a plain vanilla 146 FO like my good self earned over AU$80k last year with allowances. Sure, the top part of my income was taxed at 48%, but my after tax was AU$4,800 on average.

Maybe my quick sums are missing a few factors, but the advertised 16,700 dirhams does not look like a gold mine.......

Would love to be proven wrong!:O

ITCZ.
It's now not a goldmine, sure. But remember, a short time ago that 16.7k dhs was about 9k AUD per month. It fluctuates.
Also, out of your $4800 you have to pay for your accom (either rent or mortgage), school fees for kids, private health insurance etc. It's not a simple translation.

Certainly not as attractive to be earning USD ATM:{

dec at emirates
 

for those of you at ek, i would like your opinions. i am former tw captain, now at aa. i am thinking about jumping ship for direct entrycaptain job. i am high time and international experience on the 767, 51 years old, wife and 4 year old. daughter. i was in top 10% at tw but now 53 percintile at aa (nice integration :-( ) , with restrictions on where i can go and what i can do. in otherwords, my last 9 years (at $160 to 200 k/yr) willnot be alot of fun (reserve some, domestic,etc.)

please give me honest feelings. is it too big an adventure considering the "relative stability" ihave in the usa?

thanks...dave

Dave, are you SERIOUS?

Dave

Your last 9 years on 85k, flying to every !!!!! hole in the subcontinent and Africa will be a whole lot less fun.

dmf

Dave,
I think you would make a big mistake.... 9 years to go.... Go for the cash.... You have been in this business long enough to know that the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence....Is it? Realy?

P.S. If you realy want to go there, I am sure a lot of EK guys would be interested on swapping jobs....:rolleyes:

DAAAAAAVE, SWAP WITH MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

And MEEEEEE......

Dave,
As you can see from the above replies, the bloom has gone off the rose at EK...and many other expat jobs as well.
These 'golden' years are in the past, and not likely to return anytime soon.

Told the guys here nearly three years ago that DE commands would be offered at EK, and was laughed at then...now the truth has come to pass and many co-pilots at EK are on the outside of a command, looking in.

Stay where you are, and enjoy retirement in a few years.

For the EK guys...told you so.:E

Gee 411A I wish I was as clever as you, because if I was I would be a very rich man with better things to do than post smartarsed comments on a pilots forum.

Nip down to the life shop and buy one.

Atiuta,

Dont take things for granted....3 years to upgrade.....this is under review!!!!!:sad:

Not surprised at all that EK management is looking at revising their upgrade policy, they have probably discovered that it is generally cheaper to direct hire commanders rather than upgrade co-pilots.
Considerable training costs can be saved by doing so, especially if the guys they hire are already experienced on type.

Direct hire Captains are a proven commodity, unlike co-pilots who may...or might not be successful with an upgrade.

Well, 411a, it seems quite obvious to me that EK needs your visionary talents quite badly, and right now. Given your doubtlessly unique talents, I'm sure they'll be quick to overlook your date of birth if, as I suspect it is, prior to 1947, along with your psychological profile, which, I also suspect, might not fit exactly into the normal EK pilot candidate profile.

I look forward to hearing your reports here on Pprune on the plethora of ‘sub-standard’ FOs that EK currently employs. (Almost as much as I would look forward to hearing the reports the FOs would have on you.)

Tell me, if you will… how does – in fact did – a mere mortal like myself in the World According to 411a ever get to be a… (pauses to stand to stiffly to attention and solemnly salute, note the reverent use of the capital and please imagine a tone of awestruck wonder as I say this magic word) …Captain… if all FOs coming up for command are as incompetent as you seem to believe they are?

Really?
 

Atiuta,

The upgrade policy has been reviewed? That little snippet hasn't passed my in-tray yet. Kindly elucidate.
Rgds
UAE

411A,

"Direct hire Captains are a proven commodity,"

Not necessarily true, in fact from some operators it might prove the opposite to your meaning.

Generally a reasonable statement BusyB, the said Captains need to be selected carefully.
In two companies where I spent a rather long time, watched DE Captains hired (expereinced on type), given a short differences course, foreshortened line training, and assigned to a regular line of flying in thirty days from commencement of employment.
Considerable fewer training Captain hours required in this exercise, rather than upgrade from within.
Having said this, a few of the 'bypassed' First Officers had a rather large chip on their shoulder about this, and would tend to complain bitterly to management about this process, and were promptly told by the fleet manager/chief pilot to button their lip least their upgrade be further delayed.
Suspect that EK management has made up their collective minds about DE Captains, and the guys there will have no other choice but to accept...or quit.

Of course, EK will have to pay competitive salaries now that world-wide aviation is starting a slow upturn. If they don't, they might find the DE Captain in-box rather less that half full.

411a. That's the best post I've read of yours yet.

I've heard that DEC's have got here expecting (and were told) they would receive a 'larger package' and, on arrival, have been told they start where everyone else does.

Interesting, but still a rumour......

The last few responses have been good ones,but I fail to see the big deal in the DEC issue. If an airline can't get the supply that they need and they can't promote from within because people aren't ready( in management's view), they don't want to be promoted, or they have issues where they can't do training experiments on line flights and have incidents and accidents; then they have to hire from the outside. Most people from the outside have the T-shirt and they may or may not do better than promoting someone from within. But a proven track record speaks for itself. It's that simple. Most airlines today can't take adverse publicity nor the $$ cost of having incidents or accidents. This is true worldwide.

If you have a seniority system and a system where people get trained when your number comes up, it works reasonably well. But when you try to upgrade and fail, the downward spiral and the consequences are not pleasant.