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-   -   Emirates 3 crew long haul destinations this Summer (https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/608978-emirates-3-crew-long-haul-destinations-summer.html)

BigGeordie 17th May 2018 15:37

Emirates 3 crew long haul destinations this Summer
 
Well, the list is out. EK will be operating with only three crew to:

Sydney, Melbourne, New York, Boston, Rio and Sao Paulo

From 1st July.

Obviously, this has all been run through the award winning fatigue management program and there will be no fatigue problems at all.

Kamelchaser 17th May 2018 15:45

Just astonishing. Clearly all the fatigue reports from earlier 3 pilot operations don't count when we're so short of crew.

EchoKilla 17th May 2018 15:51

This is the new Emirates - GAME CHANGER :}

gtaflyer 17th May 2018 15:58

Yes it's just two crew operation left and right hand seat. The third guy sitting on the jump seat (somewhere in the middle) keeps an eye on the other two in.case they go to sleep and wacks them if they do (unless he's asleep as well!!!!!). If they all asleep well....maybe after 20 or 30 minutes (depending on airline sop) one of the cabin staff will call and check up on them...maybe if they not fatigued or busy.

donpizmeov 17th May 2018 16:07

In one breath says our pay is about right. In the next he mentions off handedly how our productivity is greatly improved .BBJ is now fully integrated.

filejw 17th May 2018 16:19

Are BOS or JFK less than 12 hrs...??

QNHbox 17th May 2018 16:30

This place is a joke.

dustyflightdeck 17th May 2018 16:38

That's just dangerous. If you value your career/life then press 2

flying willy 17th May 2018 16:45

Anyone knows where and how we can file a complaint directly with the authorities of the countries that we will fly to?

PositiveRate876 17th May 2018 16:58


Originally Posted by filejw (Post 10149441)
Are BOS or JFK less than 12 hrs...??

Blocked around 14hrs on the westbound leg.

Monarch Man 17th May 2018 17:05

Simple, file an ASR, file a fatigue report, provide a copies DIRECTLY to the relevant authorities. Use their rules as a means to protect yourself and most importantly remain safe.
BBJ has clearly has his wings clipped and is now firmly in his box, his comments relating to the package are merely reflecting what STC has said in public.

I Claudius 17th May 2018 17:07

First class seat taken, the reason, SAFETY. Submit ASR.

Three crew in combination with the deteriorating standard of hotels?

The candle is being burnt at both ends.

Calmcavok 17th May 2018 17:08

So, serious question, are there any other airlines that operate up to 15hr block time (16h25 duty), ULR flights? With 24-27hr layovers?

aeropix 17th May 2018 17:14

GIG - EZE
 
Who’s going to operate the GIG EZE flight if there’s only 3 crew to GIG?

Who’s going to operate GRU-SCL if there’s only 3 man crew to GRU?

Will it be single pilot? That would be efficiency!

gtaflyer 17th May 2018 17:14

Ok let me get this straight you want to file an ASR and a fatigue report.....which goes to the airline and maybe to the GCAA and then something will be done about it and it’s same airline that’s publishing roster for you? WOW...let the wolf look after the sheep cool.....good luck ...in the mean time you’ve been rostered to go fly one of these insane routes what do you do call sick that’s only option or ...or no other way out...hope those guys are getting their micro-naps or it’s not in the SOPs?

my salami 17th May 2018 17:15


Originally Posted by Calmcavok (Post 10149474)
So, serious question, are there any other airlines that operate up to 15hr block time (16h25 duty), ULR flights? With 24-27hr layovers?

Yes, many of the US Carriers are operating with 3 man crew....

MS

aussiefarmer 17th May 2018 17:25

Respective CAAs of the destinations must be independently informed. CASA already monitoring fatigue issue on EK flight crew for a while. FAA not particularly impressed.

This might work with well rested crew, definitely a disaster waiting to happen with already cronically fatigued drivers.

gtaflyer 17th May 2018 17:35

I wonder how long the current fatigued crews will last in their jobs before dropping like flies.....I mean summer season is here already

Emma Royds 17th May 2018 17:48


Originally Posted by aeropix (Post 10149478)
Who’s going to operate the GIG EZE flight if there’s only 3 crew to GIG? Who’s going to operate GRU-SCL if there’s only 3 man crew to GRU? Will it be single pilot? That would be efficiency!

My guess is the operating pilots to GIG will now continue down to EZE and the augmenting pilot will do what the operating crew currently do and have the single night in GIG and come back. BBJs list only states the 261/2 as having three pilots so I would say it's safe to assume that the SCL paring still has four pilots (for now at least!).

kcar 17th May 2018 18:57

One sick down route and flight will be cancelled. Have they considered the pressure they’ll put on the pilots to fly sick or face the consequences?

Jack D 17th May 2018 20:07


Originally Posted by my salami (Post 10149480)


Yes, many of the US Carriers are operating with 3 man crew....

MS

Not with 15 hrs duty ... !! Come on be serious

aeropix 17th May 2018 20:20

Alertness will be "Acceptable"
 

Originally Posted by gtaflyer (Post 10149496)
I wonder how long the current fatigued crews will last in their jobs before dropping like flies.....I mean summer season is here already

Remember when our rosters were always published late, it was because the company needed, in their words "EXTREME" flexibility, for financial gain of course.

But when it comes to safety, we only need "ACCEPTABLE" levels. Gotta love how alertness will merely be "Acceptable" according to the "SAFE" analysis. Shouldn't we be having "optimum" or "superior" or even "EXTREME" levels of alertness / safety enroute? I guess that kind of cost/benefit ratio is not ranking so highly these days.

Xulu 17th May 2018 21:27

The pace of decline in this airline is unreal.

If we knew it’d get better, we might see a future here. But we know it’s going to get worse.

Pure desperation to crew flights with complete disregard for safety or wellbeing of their employees - where’s CNN now?

The most infuriating thing, habibis sat around thinking how smart they are.


fliion 17th May 2018 22:14

Well it didn’t take long for BBJ’s short haul experience to make its mark on the long haul.

Anyone know anyone or ever had any ‘one on one’ feedback from the FRMS Dept after your fatigue reports?

It’s the lack of honesty that really goads “Guys we are massively short, this is temp, we’ll pay you $xxx in the interim if you are on a 3 man ULR”

Nope - and if you are not convinced about his quick assimilation- notice the part where he mentions how they have great candidates for the DCP position- “ but the window is still open!”

riiight

Just when you think it can’t get any worse....it’s actually making pilots who stay here - look really stupid

Now that pisses people off





kcar 18th May 2018 00:38


Originally Posted by aeropix (Post 10149478)
Who’s going to operate the GIG EZE flight if there’s only 3 crew to GIG?

Who’s going to operate GRU-SCL if there’s only 3 man crew to GRU?

Will it be single pilot? That would be efficiency!

that assumes EZE stay as a layover.

Emma Royds 18th May 2018 00:38

Maybe it's just me but I am finding BBJ's weekly address to now become a rather patronising read at times. Whilst it's good for him to engage with us at regular intervals, his words should be few and well chosen. Keep the points concise and leave out all the layers of justification, as it will only result in his credibility diminishing with him in turn, looking like an idiot!!!

TangoUniform 18th May 2018 01:48


Originally Posted by my salami (Post 10149480)


Yes, many of the US Carriers are operating with 3 man crew....

MS


You are correct, sort of.....if the flight historically (50.1%) is 8 hours or over 3 crew needed. EK doesn't. But if the flight is over 12, the FAA requires a full augmenting crew. NO three man crews over 12 hours. Get your facts straight.

mmmbop 18th May 2018 02:19

"It's all your fault Habibis. If you hadn't let your colleagues depart in such numbers, and let them tell such lies to prospective pilots saying life here was bad, then we wouldn't have crewing issues, and we wouldn't have had to make these flights 3 crew. There is no such thing as fatigue. You will all do these flights and we will get no paperwork stating fatigue issues. It is just a few rotten dates infesting the rest of you good slaves.........cough cough........ I mean good 'ones' habibis. It is ok habibis, as soon as summer is over and we have enough pilots we will return to 4 crew operations. Like we did with the Productivity Pay habibis. Happy Ramadan habibis."

filejw 18th May 2018 03:05


Originally Posted by my salami (Post 10149480)


Yes, many of the US Carriers are operating with 3 man crew....

MS

Anything over 11:59 is a 4 man crew in USA ( FAA )

fatbus 18th May 2018 03:35

I think this is ludicrous!

uplock 18th May 2018 05:25

Just The beginning
 
Incase your wondering why only a select few flights to SYD / MEL and not all of them went 3 crew and why leave out BNE ?
It would be because GCAA approval process requires a trial period and review of reports prior to final approval.
Newsletter did not state this or that the GCAA will also require to review all the ASRs and CSR and Fatigue reports submitted during this trial period.

A precedent had all-ready been established with the 14 HR Dubai-Toronto 3 crew flight. This also had a trail period however not enough reports were received to deem 3 crew unacceptable so approval was given.
GCAA have a confidential report line if your concerned and want anonymity then details can be found under GCAA CAAP 57 ( VORSY) Voluntary Reporting Procedure. All aviation companies are required to notify employees of this procedure.
A direct link is provided here CAAP 57

Quote

Note: The reporter may choose to remain anonymous. GCAA will never attempt to identify, nor trace the IP address of the reporter.

Link to the reporting page here Voluntary Reporting System (VORSY)

On the flip side the ridiculous 100 hours a month thats now the norm will drop off.
When you do one of these 3 crew flights and decide not to file an ASR/CSR/Fatigue report then your part of the problem and not the solution.

donpizmeov 18th May 2018 07:07

[QUOTE=uplock;10149914]

On the flip side the ridiculous 100 hours a month thats now the norm will drop off.

I can't see how . It will be operated two Captains one FO . Captain hours will remain the same with the only reduction being in rest hours .EK is running out of FOs as they can't hire enough, so the few they have will just be shared around a bit more. So no hour reduction there, apart from rest hours of course .
We will still have people bidding for these patterns, and people willing to swap onto them without the productivity pay as per the new rules . The company will win twice, and the only complaints from the pilot body will be found here.

ekpilot 18th May 2018 07:20

Uplock

Incase your wondering why only a select few flights to SYD / MEL and not all of them went 3 crew and why leave out BNE ?


Just in case you book sick outstation... EASY!

SOPS 18th May 2018 09:49

Well that did not take long...BBJ who has never flown an EK sector in his life telling you guys how it can be done!!!

Im wondering if they have taken into account (the lack)of factoring? Work with me on this one. With only 3 pilots, ( a totally insane idea) each pilot will spend less time in the bunk...therefore less hours can be factored.
Therefore they can fly you less for your 100 hours a month (lazy pilots), if you understand what I mean. So less availability to roster pilots, means they need more pilots. Are they actually chasing there own tails here?

alwayzinit 18th May 2018 09:52

Next week Brian will explain how he has reinvented the wheel (again) this version has 4 sides and won't roll downhill. (Just like the last square one!)

And Emma R, "patronising beyond clawing" springs to mind for what words you were looking for to describe BBJ's tone..................................

glofish 18th May 2018 10:11

VORSY:

Note: The reporter may choose to remain anonymous. GCAA will never attempt to identify, nor trace the IP address of the reporter.

Be very careful. I used VORSY once and this is what happened:

The report was rejected by the GCAA! However a few days later EK (!) mailed me and asked why i had reported directly to the GCAA and not filed a ASR first .....

Go figure

The system is rigged and there is no hope with any reporting, anonymous or not.
The only defense, and the only language the system understands is press 2.
This is the sad truth.

dustyflightdeck 18th May 2018 10:14

Don't waste your time with GCAA. of FAA/CASA get enough complaints they will investigate

Fuel-Off 18th May 2018 10:19

A few helpful links to get the ball rolling:

Civil Aviation Safety Authority anonymous reporting
https://www.casa.gov.au/about-us/web...safe-behaviour

Australian Transport Safety Bureau anonymous reporting
https://www.atsb.gov.au/voluntary/repcon_aviation.aspx

FAA anonymous reporting
Whistleblower Protection Program - Electronic Complaint Notification

Couldnt find the link to the Brazilian ANAC anonymous reporting (if they have one?), any Brazilian lads or ladettes care to provide?

Fuel-Off :ok:

flying willy 18th May 2018 10:43


Originally Posted by Fuel-Off (Post 10150144)
A few helpful links to get the ball rolling:

Civil Aviation Safety Authority anonymous reporting
https://www.casa.gov.au/about-us/web...safe-behaviour

Australian Transport Safety Bureau anonymous reporting
https://www.atsb.gov.au/voluntary/repcon_aviation.aspx

FAA anonymous reporting
Whistleblower Protection Program - Electronic Complaint Notification

Couldnt find the link to the Brazilian ANAC anonymous reporting (if they have one?), any Brazilian lads or ladettes care to provide?

Fuel-Off :ok:



Thank you for the links. I will definitely write to them

The Outlaw 18th May 2018 12:02

My guess is that the 3 man ULR is here to stay. They do not have the man power to properly staff the schedule now and even if pilots came "en masse", it would take a minimum of 3 years before the line guys would see the benefits.

So its not even a question of pressing 2 anymore for your health, its really a question of pressing the "submit" button of your resignation email, your health is a long term investment as opposed to a couple days off here and there. Everyone also knows that they will start probing in to the question of " why you are not rested" with the 10 days off per month you get"? "Do you snore?" will be asked and then it gets interesting from there...ask some guys who have gone through it.

In any case, the trend has been downward, my guess for the next "knee in the package" will be income tax among other gems, a reduction in leave which has been tried before.

The trend however has become serious as it appears "safety third" has become the truth.

Stay safe.


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