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Originally Posted by Calmcavok
(Post 10149474)
So, serious question, are there any other airlines that operate up to 15hr block time (16h25 duty), ULR flights? With 24-27hr layovers? Doing this constantly? No thank you. Certainly not for the money that EK seems to be paying 🙄 |
Here's the contact for EASA. They will reply with a formal acknowledgement of your complaint and it will go into their database on EK. Unfortunately they redesigned the webpage and it isn't easy to find anymore.
[email protected] I would appreciate the original letter stating this new reality 3 days after the US-UAE deal as I have very direct access to the FAA on this matter. PM or a link will be fine. |
Originally Posted by my salami
(Post 10149480)
Yes, many of the US Carriers are operating with 3 man crew.... MS |
Originally Posted by Fix Info
(Post 10150327)
Sure, just like many European operators do the same — when the flight time exceeds 8 hours. So, many of them fly 3-man crew to the US or Asia on flights that are 9hr long. I would be surprised to hear that the US Big Three operate with 3 pilots on 14hr flights. |
Originally Posted by Fuel-Off
(Post 10150144)
A few helpful links to get the ball rolling:
Civil Aviation Safety Authority anonymous reporting https://www.casa.gov.au/about-us/web...safe-behaviour Australian Transport Safety Bureau anonymous reporting https://www.atsb.gov.au/voluntary/repcon_aviation.aspx FAA anonymous reporting Whistleblower Protection Program - Electronic Complaint Notification Couldnt find the link to the Brazilian ANAC anonymous reporting (if they have one?), any Brazilian lads or ladettes care to provide? Fuel-Off :ok: Thankyou - this is exactly what we all need to do. Gcaa is a waste of time, will just get you in trouble. Need to write to FAA//CAA/CASA links above, about all rostering practices in combination, against a backdrop of sustained fatigue. 30 year old cadet captains flying with green cadets - Who between them will only have a small number of sectors. Rising incidents, near catastrophes. Mass disengagement. EK521 - FlyDubai 981.... who's next? https://www.caa.co.uk/Our-work/Make-...-or-complaint/ https://www.chirp.co.uk/ |
Originally Posted by my salami
(Post 10149480)
Yes, many of the US Carriers are operating with 3 man crew.... MS Of course many US operators have 3 men crews but only up to 12 hours flight time. Keep in mind few pilots fly over 80 hours for the month so it’s not a big deal. We also fly 3 pilots from JFK-GLA and JFK-DUB which both trip are well under 8 hrs even Westbound. I cant remember the FTLs ar Emirates but 14 hrs to JFK or SYD is just unsafe especially when you include the extreme fatigue EK pilots have from flying 95 hard time hours for years. The pilots that are not stuck at Emirates really, really need to get out as quick as they can. Even before this insane move it was well advised for your health and sanity to leave but this 3 man crap is dangerous to your license and your livelihood. Why would any pilot stay (or join) at Emirates? It is Dangerous and Unsafe! |
Why do people smoke and take drugs when they know that it is very bad for their health…? Same same but different...
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Making the news outlets and blogs: https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/05/18/emirates-reducing-pilot-staffing/ |
I blame this colleague
From May 10th in another thread:
https://www.pprune.org/10143201-post124.html "...wonder how he intends to fix it. 3 crew ULRs ?" Nice to know staff inputs are taken seriously. |
Originally Posted by uplock
(Post 10149914)
When you do one of these 3 crew flights and decide not to file an ASR/CSR/Fatigue report then your part of the problem and not the solution.
Copy the links and start reporting. Send from the biz center on the layover if you are worried about EK. IpSec connected VPN, TOR browser, etc. It won't take long and there will be pre-formatted reports that you only need to change the dates on. |
Normal 3 man ULRs are pretty bad, but then consider the max duty limit of 22 hours for ‘irregular ‘ operations! Two hour delay out of Dubai, maybe a medical diversion enroute, or a diversion at arrival airport, quick refuel and continue to destination, quite easily get up up to 21/22 hours duty limit! Don't say it will never happen, it already has! 3 man BOS three years back, duty over 20 hours, captain queried the max duty for 3 crew, informed (rather rudely!) that it was 22 hours and to get on with it, or have a meeting with AAR in return to Dubai! Needless to say, said captain has now moved on to greener pastures! |
And there is no fear factor in EK management!!! |
Originally Posted by my salami
(Post 10149480)
Yes, many of the US Carriers are operating with 3 man crew.... MS Q05) What are the flight time limitations for a flight crewmember assigned to a FDP as a member of a 3-pilot flightcrew? A05) 13 hours as stipulated in 117.11(a)(2). Flight time will include any flight deck time as well as in-flight rest periods. |
And a 3 man EK crew can now legally do 22 hours. It is total madness. |
Who’s this Sean M character in the onemileatatime article? Has anybody taken him to task on the non standard crew rest that EK has.? EK simply has a bodgie crew rest area for both fleets. Boeing originally had a crew rest that was seperate from the cabin crew, in the front of the aircraft. The crew bunk in the back is subject to noise from economy passengers, babies crying/screaming etc, from below. It is very disappointing that both Boeing and Airbus caved into Middle Eastern buying power and provided sub standard crew rest facilities. Added to this is the deteriorating standard of hotels provided at the destinations. Too many holes are lining up! |
DCS I think you will find that your colleague also alluded to this when predicting the reduction in cabin crew members at an earlier date. This has been a done deal for a long time. They have just thought to mention it now as bidding for July starts soon .
BBJ is just the voice that announces his masters wishes. He has no power to make any decisions . Just like that other ex brit low cost gent he replaced . More cabin crew reductions on the way. Less leave for all. More work for the same money. Bet you they start offering a ex Air Berlin type service soon. Maybe offer a Y class class product where you have to buy blankets, water food etc . Anytime you think they must be done, they announce something else .These muppets are good . |
You cannot do 22hrs duty with 3 crew, Simple. Normal fdp’s apply. These affected flights are not ULR. They are LRV. So credit taken for bunk time to extend normal fdp. Happy to be corrected if I have missed something here. Nevertheless it is still madness. Please all write to your management, and voice your concerns. EK only works on statistics. No reports or concerns, no change......
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Fugazi, that is easily fixed with an FCI saying you only need 3 crew for a ULR, rubberstamped by the GCAA. Problem solved. |
Have read the new rules for LRVs, I stand corrected, the max duty is 18hrs! Unless, in exceptional circumstances, however it can be extended with management approval, nothing about crew approval required. What constitutes exceptional circumstances? Diversion? Delayed ex DXB for fog/sand? Normal FTL limits don’t apply! |
I agree with Fugazi, unless they come up with a 'variation', which they won't (remember the time line document in the briefing package??) then normal FDP with 3 crew will apply. |
This is from the SINGAPORE AOC regulations pertaining to FDP:
The maximum permitted (rostered) Flight Duty Period may be extended when the Normal Flight Crew complement is augmented with Augmented Flight Crew according to the following: a) Up to a maximum FDP of 15 hours if augmented with one flight crew (each flight crew member can leave their assigned post and be replaced by another appropriately qualified flight crew member for the purpose of in-flight rest) and appropriate rest facilities are available for one pilot. b) Up to a maximum FDP of 18 hours if augmented with two flight crew (each flight crew member can leave their assigned post and be replaced by another appropriately qualified flight crew member for the purpose of in-flight rest) and appropriate rest facilities are available for two pilots. Bear in mind that the Regulator also allows a maximum of 3 hours duty extension (at commander's discretion). |
Originally Posted by kennedy
(Post 10151067)
Have read the new rules for LRVs, I stand corrected, the max duty is 18hrs! Unless, in exceptional circumstances, however it can be extended with management approval, nothing about crew approval required. What constitutes exceptional circumstances? Diversion? Delayed ex DXB for fog/sand? Normal FTL limits don’t apply! At least that's how I read it. |
Originally Posted by cheerios
(Post 10151128)
Kennedy, this LRV annex applies to the crew complement stated in the table at the top of the section. BOS is "2 captains and 2 FOs". They will need to amend the variation to allow for it to be used for 3 man to BOS or other destinations.
At least that's how I read it. Right now the most recent line in the OM-A that counts is: For 3 man crew operations, no extension is allowed beyond the FDP of 18 hours. |
Originally Posted by SOPS
(Post 10150934)
And a 3 man EK crew can now legally do 22 hours. It is total madness. |
With one man down, at least the profit share will be Up this year then! 🤪🤪 |
Going to Oz is much trickier on FTLs than the states. If you go into CAR-OPs 1, the following limits apply: 900 block hours in a year (there is no definition of stick time) 100 in 28 Non-acclimatised longest possible duty without relief 13 hours on return Extension possible 1/2 rest so 14hr flight, 3 crew best you’ll do is 2.15 So max duty 15.15 Max flight time 14.15 Block today 14.00 hours So we exceed annual limit and monthly limit and push daily limits used by other operators who have sufficient crew. But SAFE, a program that assumes robotic sleep and rest patterns, designed by an OA firm says it is fine. Still our new SVP who has flown 2 hour sectors for the last few years says it is safe....so it must be😱 You couldn’t make it up😳 |
Dear Brian
Dear Brian,
Well its been an interesting week to say the least, all vestiges of a new broom or breath of fresh air have been well and truly dispelled, exactly as many predicted including most regular posters on here. I believe it must be clear to you by now that our employer has very little interest in safety if it impacts negatively on the bottom line or worse, shows how inept the standard of management is, a state of affairs I'm certain a great many of my colleagues will have communicated to you at various moments. The latest level of "acceptance" you have described is yet another erosion in safety standards masquerading its legitimacy behind a flawed and some might infer corrupt process, moreover its also clear that scant regard has been paid to the previous lessons that were learnt along with the more recent lessons relating to cumulative fatigue, safety margins and pilot retention. As ever, pilots being pilots, the vast majority will attempt to complete the mission, the vast majority will complete the mission successfully, until one crew doesn't and that Brian is a great deal closer to occurring on your watch. Make no mistake, if you continue to roll the dice and reduce margins luck eventually runs out. I hope Brian that you can see that amongst the flight-crews who are still here, you can see a determination to maintain professional standards and keep doing the job to the best of our abilities, I also hope you can now see that the goodwill you sought to foster has in one decision been lost. Best of Luck. |
Originally Posted by glofish
(Post 10151168)
Right now the most recent line in the OM-A that counts is:
For 3 man crew operations, no extension is allowed beyond the FDP of 18 hours. |
One thing is for sure, T and C's keep going only one way...and it aint good.
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900 BLOCK HRS is a CAR OPS requirement a year
You have normal FTLs then you have variations then you have LRV (Long Range Variation)
LRV MUST be of a higher standard or equivalent to normal FTLs they can not be of less standard. Normal 3 man crew can go max 18 hours duty however as that is all-ready a variation you can not have further extension. If by some chance you do go over the 18 hours Duty then a local nights rest is a requirement. Incorrect of the company to state that your 900 limit is based on Stick time. Absolute fairy dust If you are one of those pilots flying over 900 BLOCK hours in 12 months at the end of the previous month you are not legal, period. Emirates have a lot of issues they are not admitting to. Flying pilots over 900 Block hours and saying stick time applies instead is yet another. Check CAR-OPS 1 sub section Q copied below CAR-OPS 1.1125 Absolute Limits on Flying Time and Duty Period a. No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times; (1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or (2) during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours: |
Posting the below after seeing several inaccurate statements re USA Flight Time - Crew complement maximums.
Below is the actual published rules for flight time. The duty time limits, that is the cumulative time between work show to work end vary based on the pilot's start time. Depending on the start time the window of allowable duty can be very small for flight times approaching 13 hours to fly with only 3 pilots. This is why many US pilots think that 12 is the maximum for 3 pilot complement. If one is rostered for an morning westbound flight it's legal, and usual, at my airline to fly with 3 pilots. If there is a delay we have bumped up on the duty limits and have had to cancel the segment. ============================================================ ================================================== FAR 117.11 Flight time limitation.(a) No certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept an assignment or continue an assigned flight duty period if the total flight time:(1) Will exceed the limits specified in Table A of this part if the operation is conducted with the minimum required flightcrew. (2) Will exceed 13 hours if the operation is conducted with a 3-pilot flightcrew. (3) Will exceed 17 hours if the operation is conducted with a 4-pilot flightcrew. |
By the way, where is Harry telling us that we got it all wrong? Another misunderstanding of the company‘s well intended rostering options. A good way for guys to build stick time quicker than before. Or have they gone too far this time? |
what's next? is this legal ? according to the FAA or EASA?
i know that the GCAA in their pockets but the rest! |
Originally Posted by in freedom
(Post 10151441)
By the way, where is Harry telling us that we got it all wrong? Or have they gone too far this time? |
I to have been wondering where Harry is. He was very quiet on the ( non) pay review and now we have this little gem of safety enhancement and productivity gain for no extra $$$$ ( BBJ must have got tips from TCAS), and still no comment from our Harry. |
I can bet my 5 weeks that Flight Dispatch will be asked allot by NCC to speed up the flights so that the FDP is still legal before dispatch.
I feel for you okes. Good luck. Keep it safe! |
Originally Posted by SOPS
(Post 10151727)
I to have been wondering where Harry is. He was very quiet on the ( non) pay review and now we have this little gem of safety enhancement and productivity gain for no extra $$$$ ( BBJ must have got tips from TCAS), and still no comment from our Harry. I do hope many of the posters on here have backed up their venting with action. Yes, It may not get it reversed but God forbid if there is an accident and subsequent investigation and presumably a civil trial - and it was shown that many had voiced their concerns but were ignored... you can at least hold your head up and say: “I tried” |
Bravo Monarch Man, well written. Expessed how I feel precisely. We took Harry’s advice and gave the bloke a chance, and low and behold, we’re in than same position we’ve been in with every other shackled ‘leader’. Commercial vs Safety and we know who the winner is every time. |
Originally Posted by Fuel-Off
(Post 10150144)
Couldnt find the link to the Brazilian ANAC anonymous reporting (if they have one?), any Brazilian lads or ladettes care to provide?
[email protected] |
After reading all these posts it makes me worry! Does Bryan come from easyJet? Perhaps he should remind the top management who after all have the final say so, about the most famous statement that Stelios made in the early easyJet days. ”IF YOU THINK SAFETY IS EXPENSIVE, TRY AN ACCIDENT”!!! After reading all this and what’s happening it seems they end up with the leftover experienced guys flying with cadets who just graduated which effectively would almost be a single pilot operation flying widebody jets in a state of exhaustion. Trying to keep the vigilance and alert levels up??? I can’t help it but with my common sense but this seems to me that they are playing a game of Russian roulette. Effectively sowing the seeds for something I don’t want to mention. Good luck to all of you! |
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