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Originally Posted by in freedom
(Post 10152839)
You will have every right to be fatigued at the outstation because these trips will be coupled with a scheduling violation of:
OM-A 7.2.c, the avoidance of the scheduling rest periods of between 18 and 30 hours especially after long flights crossing many time zones. It is impossible to properly sleep twice on a 24 hour layover, which is exactly what's needed: a proper sleep after and a proper sleep before these cruel duties. Those were the days of waking up in America and watching Mickey Mouse and Gospel channels in the middle of the night. However for some other trips e.g. night / day and 18-30 hours you do get two sleep opportunities and the ability to recover in the companies time rather than at home. This does however requires crews to stay on local time a big ask depending on the trip / hotel / noise etc. There is some science to support this also. The biggest problem crews face is they are faced with multiple trips of differing nature with each needing specific sleep plans. If EK wanted to do it properly they would do data gathering as well as listen to the crews. This is FRM at its best. Judging by the amount of feedback on this topic I suspect this may not be the case. |
Well well well - there you go the position is out: FLIGHT OPERATIONS RISK MANAGER - 180000T3 |
Originally Posted by GKOC41
(Post 10152891)
This does however requires crews to stay on local time ..........a big ask depending on the trip / hotel / noise etc. There is some science to support this also.
The biggest problem crews face is they are faced with multiple trips of differing nature with each needing specific sleep plans. If EK wanted to do it properly they would do data gathering as well as listen to the crews. This is FRM at its best. Judging by the amount of feedback on this topic I suspect this may not be the case. I don't think EK crews are ever on local time. A daytime departure or landing at the home base is sort of an abnormal situation. I am sure they will introduce a special checklist for day light landings eventually. |
3 months worth of ASR data to the regulator and the rule usually changes. Standard modus operandi, look back at 24hr US layovers, three months later 48hr, only for the next new destination to be 24hrs, and so on... 3 months buys a lot of time for the bouncy castle to solve the shortage. BM in regulatory affairs was a master at it. It appears the technique lives on...
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Originally Posted by glofish
(Post 10152786)
Fuzuma
The argument that calling in sick, as pointed out here, is not fair because you put strain on a colleague is bullocks. You call in sick because you are not fit for flight, basta. If someone else is called out, it is his assessment if he's fit or not, not yours! I presume all on here agree, that calling in sick, for the sake of not rested enough or fatigued, on the outbound leg should not happen. Normally we get enough rest before. What is propagated, is not to refrain from calling in fatigued or not rested enough when you feel like that down the route. This is unsafe and contradicts the OMA. The new proposed rules will very rapidly and very regularly put you in exactly this position. On a normal day we all might go for such FTLs, but on too many occasions there are parameters that go against a normal day and lead to more fatigue and exhaustion. Now that is the exact scenario where we say "grow balls" and call in sick. You are basically obliged to do so, in the name of safety! Yours and the one of our crew and customers. You will have ammunition for your sick/fatigued report. Use them, point them out on your report and get more rest. This is a legal and efficient way to fight this outrageous breach of safety precaution by the company. It is also almost the only way the company and the eunuchs at the regulators will listen. |
Cant see much changing
PJ your incorrect
3 months worth of ASR data to the regulator and the rule usually changes. GKOC41 your correct regarding the 18 -30 hr the GCAA FTLs were based around the UK CAAP 371 . Emirates stated "commercial reasons" when questioned by the GCAA. So nothing changed . We don't have a FRMS system and will never see one in Emirates.Has to supported top down. Will never happen. |
Hate to bring up Train Driving again...Harry might get upset. However we have a FRMS system that works. Start at 4.00 am...must be finished by !0.00 am..(including 40 minute meal beak)..I wont go on with the rest..just to say..If I start at 8.00 am in the morning the longest shift I can do is 8 hours 30 minutes..including meal breaks....now lets talk about the 9 weeks annual leave.....
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Let’s talk about the salary after tax? |
Money of course , here comes the real motivation in this place….
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Let’s talk about long term health as the motivation to leave. All the tax free dollars in the world can’t buy back ill health, which is a possible and potential outcome of the rosters that are being flown. |
Originally Posted by Xulu
(Post 10153158)
Let’s talk about the salary after tax? Not one medical professional has a good word to say about these rosters. |
My friend, a doc at ek clinic, said to me back in 2013!!! that they knew these rosters were unlike any tried before in the history of aviation. That, as in many things ek, they wished to be the pathfinder, the new paradigm....
I could go on and on, all things said above and before..... get out she said. |
Turtle just got in front of me. What EK pilots are, are a part of a large experiment, the likes of which has never been attempted before in aviation. No other group of pilots have ever flown the hours and/or the rosters under the conditions that EK pilots have been suffering for several years now. And every time you think they can’t make it worse, they do. Nobody has an idea what it is doing to your health. Nio amount of $$$ can make up for that. Stay safe out there. |
Originally Posted by SOPS
(Post 10153419)
Turtle just got in front of me. What EK pilots are, are a part of a large experiment, the likes of which has never been attempted before in aviation. No other group of pilots have ever flown the hours and/or the rosters under the conditions that EK pilots have been suffering for several years now. And every time you think they can’t make it worse, they do. Nobody has an idea what it is doing to your health. Nio amount of $$$ can make up for that. Stay safe out there. That’s what April to November looks like in most companies in Europe. |
Yeah but when you're slogging for an LCC or short haul doing a ton of sectors they're generally in the same time zone and you're back in your own bed (even if it is min rest) Ultra long haul can't be compared to that.
I've flown extremely short haul (2-7 sectors in a day, repeatedly), medium haul and EK rosters. EK rosters are like nothing else, it's a whole different kind of "tired" |
GMW... was just about to say the same thing. |
LCC is hard work in the summer. But you also have to remember that in winter you hardly fly. So basically every year you're getting 4-5 months to recharge your batteries. There is no comparison between LCC and the kind of tiredness you experience in some 'long haul' airlines these days.
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Are hotel rooms really quiet to get a good night sleep? I somehow feel there is always something going on like construction or noisy guests or kids.
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Originally Posted by bigdaviet
(Post 10153637)
LCC is hard work in the summer. But you also have to remember that in winter you hardly fly. So basically every year you're getting 4-5 months to recharge your batteries. There is no comparison between LCC and the kind of tiredness you experience in some 'long haul' airlines these days.
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