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-   -   Emirates 3 crew long haul destinations this Summer (https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/608978-emirates-3-crew-long-haul-destinations-summer.html)

FL XXX 20th May 2018 09:22

After reading all these posts it makes me worry! Does Bryan come from easyJet? Perhaps he should remind the top management who after all have the final say so, about the most famous statement that Stelios made in the early easyJet days.

”IF YOU THINK SAFETY IS EXPENSIVE, TRY AN ACCIDENT”!!!

After reading all this and what’s happening it seems they end up with the leftover experienced guys flying with cadets who just graduated which effectively would almost be a single pilot operation flying widebody jets in a state of exhaustion. Trying to keep the vigilance and alert levels up???

I can’t help it but with my common sense but this seems to me that they are playing a game of Russian roulette. Effectively sowing the seeds for something I don’t want to mention.

Good luck to all of you!

Xulu 20th May 2018 11:16

I'm really concerned.

To try to solve the pilot shortage, Emirates is attempting to recruit desperate guys from Venezuela who have a CPL only, poor English, zero experience of LVO/Winter Ops, some with no experience working at an airline, or flying a jet.

Emirates is willing to put them straight into an A380 - operating a 3 man 17hr FDP before disruption, to East Coast US during January Snowstorms, or over the Himalayas through the night to China. And they'll be watched over by a 30 year old ex-cadet Captain who may not have seen more than 1/2 de-icing in his life and has never flown a plane above 500ft.

Sensible decisions replaced by EPT searches. We already have to suffer some of these types - but the majority will be like this is the near future. I already have a list of laughable stories to tell; i'm tired of being 'diplomatic' in the flight deck.

With this workload, complacency has risen dramatically - not a good lesson for future captains. To survive these rosters, we need to be confident in each other's ability, not questioning it.

The total disregard for experience is alarming. They don't value pilots with 10k hours worldwide airline ops, anymore than a teenage crop duster from South America.

They don't even value their current employees anymore than this. You are just a staff number, and the person attached to it is irrelevant. They literally don't care, they'll find someone to keep the seat warm.

We've already come close to catastrophe several times in the last year, and they refuse to see the root cause of these rising incidents. Someone is going to plant an A380 with 600 pax - and it will all get blamed on the pilots expected to work and react flawlessly under these conditions, with no experience to fall back on.













Rated De 20th May 2018 12:51


Simple, file an ASR, file a fatigue report, provide a copies DIRECTLY to the relevant authorities. Use their rules as a means to protect yourself and most importantly remain safe.
Not quite so easy in the modern slave state UAE...

WB1900 20th May 2018 13:37

3crew
 
I find it interesting to see that former captains are sent out the door on their upgrade for microscopic small mistakes and the preference is given to young unexpierenced newbies in the left seat
in fact that this company is not willing to train their stuff. Instead they just kicked out a batch of FOs and now they have set the age done again to get another one - just say the age limit should never been in place in the first place - but if a 30 year old was asking it was impossible and now everything is good again
beside that recently most upgrades paid for the incidents (almost accidents in the near past)
it looks like the company is asking for trouble

in freedom 20th May 2018 14:07

They are so used to being above the law that they are not giving any thought to the laws of physics or physiology.

EK521 and FZ981 weren't painful enough. In fact they are already making decent profits again. Unfortunately it will take bigger lessons to start their learning process.

As Brian wrote, Risk Management was involved in making the 3 crew long haul decisions. In their analysis there must have been a negligible uptick in the probability for an "event". What these numbers don't tell is the overall situation and how this may become the straw that broke the camel's back. That insight would require human intelligence by a qualified subject matter expert. But listening to their own pilots is out of the question. The organisation is deliberately set up for information to only flow from the top down. Their culture doesn't allow for the key recipe for success of information flow from bottom up.

thatwasclose 20th May 2018 16:18

Are these gonna be 2 cpt and 1 fo ?

I Claudius 20th May 2018 17:06

Yes, most probably 3 Captains and 1 First Officer, which.......,
given a recent event where there was a “ difference” of opinion on the taxi out, over the “ door arming procedure”, leading to a “possible” breakdown in CRM............., well, ah.........

Nah, it’s ok. Keep on truckin’, we can do it! We’re EK!

White Knight 20th May 2018 22:57


Originally Posted by WB1900
I find it interesting to see that former captains are sent out the door on their upgrade for microscopic small mistakes and the preference is given to young unexpierenced newbies in the left seat
in fact that this company is not willing to train their stuff. Instead they just kicked out a batch of FOs and now they have set the age done again to get another one - just say the age limit should never been in place in the first place - but if a 30 year old was asking it was impossible and now everything is good again
beside that recently most upgrades paid for the incidents (almost accidents in the near past)
it looks like the company is asking for trouble

In English please!


Originally Posted by FL XXX
statement that Stelios made in the early easyJet days.

”IF YOU THINK SAFETY IS EXPENSIVE, TRY AN ACCIDENT”!!!

It's an old quote that super Stelios has borrowed but it's very true. The holes are lining up nicely thanks BBJ...

donpizmeov 21st May 2018 03:48

Once we had a long range Ed. Now it seems we have a BBJ=ER.

fatbus 21st May 2018 03:57

It's simple , don't do it. Book off down route! Grow a pair!
typical EK all talk no action!

dubaigong 21st May 2018 04:12

Typical Middle East , not only EK , It's the same on the other side of the airport...

lekkeroujan 21st May 2018 06:25


Originally Posted by fatbus (Post 10152560)
It's simple , don't do it. Book off down route! Grow a pair!
typical EK all talk no action!


So, have you done it?

Fuzuma 21st May 2018 07:56


Originally Posted by fatbus
It's simple , don't do it. Book off down route! Grow a pair!
typical EK all talk no action!

Perhaps that’s the wrong attitude to have, or promote for that matter. It appears that the majority of frequent posters seem to think that the answer to a lot of the issues is to simply call in sick. That won’t solve any issue, in fact all you are doing is now intentionally screwing over one of your colleagues...

Perhaps growing a pair requires actually doing your job.......




NowThatsFunny 21st May 2018 09:00


Originally Posted by Fuzuma (Post 10152647)


Perhaps that’s the wrong attitude to have, or promote for that matter. It appears that the majority of frequent posters seem to think that the answer to a lot of the issues is to simply call in sick. That won’t solve any issue, in fact all you are doing is now intentionally screwing over one of your colleagues...

Perhaps growing a pair requires actually doing your job.......

Just how far exactly are you willing to allow safety standards to fall? If, as others have pointed out, management doesn't listen to those on the front line and doesn't take safety reports seriously because some software says it's safe, what do you propose as the solution? Because "actually doing your job...." includes the responsibility of all crew members to ensure the highest level of safety possible given the conditions they have to work under. If those conditions dictated by the company are deemed unsafe (yes it is a dictatorship), then the only course of action is to not do what is unsafe.

Fellowship of the drink 21st May 2018 09:09


Originally Posted by Fuzuma (Post 10152647)
Perhaps that’s the wrong attitude to have, or promote for that matter. It appears that the majority of frequent posters seem to think that the answer to a lot of the issues is to simply call in sick. That won’t solve any issue, in fact all you are doing is now intentionally screwing over one of your colleagues...

Perhaps growing a pair requires actually doing your job.......

Doing our job includes not turning up to work when we’re not fit to fly. Are you suggesting the pilot body operate a flight when they shouldn’t? I would call that irresponsible.

How would calling in sick on a layover screw over a colleague? There simply isn’t enough rested sets of crew on layover to substitute a sick colleague.

You either don’t understand long range flying issues or you’re a management troll. Either way, you don’t seem to grasp the safety issue here. We have been down this 3 pilot route before (although this time around, the proposed pairings are even more demanding), and the majority of posters here are saying when it’s not safe to operate, we have to make the call not to place the flight in unnecessary and unacceptable risk.

Fuzuma 21st May 2018 10:12

I’m not promoting anything that is deemed unsafe, nor the new 3 man crew LRV. What I’m trying to say is that perhaps calling in sick, will not solve the issue. Unfortunately I don’t have any other suggestions, other than what has been posted before regarding filing reports with the relevant authorities......

In my opinion, calling colleagues cowards for not calling in sick is not appropriate.

glofish 21st May 2018 10:55

Fuzuma

The argument that calling in sick, as pointed out here, is not fair because you put strain on a colleague is bullocks. You call in sick because you are not fit for flight, basta. If someone else is called out, it is his assessment if he's fit or not, not yours!
I presume all on here agree, that calling in sick, for the sake of not rested enough or fatigued, on the outbound leg should not happen. Normally we get enough rest before. What is propagated, is not to refrain from calling in fatigued or not rested enough when you feel like that down the route. This is unsafe and contradicts the OMA. The new proposed rules will very rapidly and very regularly put you in exactly this position. On a normal day we all might go for such FTLs, but on too many occasions there are parameters that go against a normal day and lead to more fatigue and exhaustion.
Now that is the exact scenario where we say "grow balls" and call in sick. You are basically obliged to do so, in the name of safety! Yours and the one of our crew and customers. You will have ammunition for your sick/fatigued report. Use them, point them out on your report and get more rest.
This is a legal and efficient way to fight this outrageous breach of safety precaution by the company. It is also almost the only way the company and the eunuchs at the regulators will listen.

Fuzuma 21st May 2018 11:36

Point taken.......

Emma Royds 21st May 2018 11:47

But the real point is not calling sick when you are not fit, as we should take that as a given. What is likely to increase are the occurrences of colleagues calling sick from Dubai when they are fit to operate, but press two purely due to risk mitigation.

in freedom 21st May 2018 12:03

You will have every right to be fatigued at the outstation because these trips will be coupled with a scheduling violation of:

OM-A 7.2.c, the avoidance of the scheduling rest periods of between 18 and 30 hours especially after long flights crossing many time zones. 


It is impossible to properly sleep twice on a 24 hour layover, which is exactly what's needed: a proper sleep after and a proper sleep before these cruel duties.


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