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-   -   Emirates 3 crew long haul destinations this Summer (https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/608978-emirates-3-crew-long-haul-destinations-summer.html)

777-200LR 19th May 2018 08:30

I agree with Fugazi, unless they come up with a 'variation', which they won't (remember the time line document in the briefing package??) then normal FDP with 3 crew will apply.

trdriver 19th May 2018 08:32

This is from the SINGAPORE AOC regulations pertaining to FDP:

The maximum permitted (rostered) Flight Duty Period may be extended when the Normal Flight Crew complement is augmented with Augmented Flight Crew according to the following:

a) Up to a maximum FDP of 15 hours if augmented with one flight crew (each flight crew member can leave their assigned post and be replaced by another appropriately qualified flight crew member for the purpose of in-flight rest) and appropriate rest facilities are available for one pilot.

b) Up to a maximum FDP of 18 hours if augmented with two flight crew (each flight crew member can leave their assigned post and be replaced by another appropriately qualified flight crew member for the purpose of in-flight rest) and appropriate rest facilities are available for two pilots.

Bear in mind that the Regulator also allows a maximum of 3 hours duty extension (at commander's discretion).

cheerios 19th May 2018 09:38


Originally Posted by kennedy (Post 10151067)
Have read the new rules for LRVs, I stand corrected, the max duty is 18hrs!

Unless, in exceptional circumstances, however it can be extended with management approval, nothing about crew approval required.

What constitutes exceptional circumstances? Diversion? Delayed ex DXB for fog/sand?

Normal FTL limits don’t apply!

Kennedy, this LRV annex applies to the crew complement stated in the table at the top of the section. BOS is "2 captains and 2 FOs". They will need to amend the variation to allow for it to be used for 3 man to BOS or other destinations.

At least that's how I read it.

glofish 19th May 2018 10:22


Originally Posted by cheerios (Post 10151128)
Kennedy, this LRV annex applies to the crew complement stated in the table at the top of the section. BOS is "2 captains and 2 FOs". They will need to amend the variation to allow for it to be used for 3 man to BOS or other destinations.

At least that's how I read it.


Right now the most recent line in the OM-A that counts is:

​​​​​For 3 man crew operations, no extension is allowed beyond the FDP of 18 hours.

yardman 19th May 2018 10:22


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 10150934)
And a 3 man EK crew can now legally do 22 hours. It is total madness.

is this actually the case, and if so, how can they justify it? I can’t personally imagine a situation in which I would extend to 22 hours with 3 pilots. I don’t see how this can be considered safe.

OMAAbound 19th May 2018 10:23

With one man down, at least the profit share will be Up this year then! 🤪🤪

Schnowzer 19th May 2018 10:38

Going to Oz is much trickier on FTLs than the states. If you go into CAR-OPs 1, the following limits apply:
900 block hours in a year (there is no definition of stick time)
100 in 28
Non-acclimatised longest possible duty without relief 13 hours on return
Extension possible 1/2 rest so 14hr flight, 3 crew best you’ll do is 2.15
So max duty 15.15
Max flight time 14.15
Block today 14.00 hours

So we exceed annual limit and monthly limit and push daily limits used by other operators who have sufficient crew.
But SAFE, a program that assumes robotic sleep and rest patterns, designed by an OA firm says it is fine.

Still our new SVP who has flown 2 hour sectors for the last few years says it is safe....so it must be😱
You couldn’t make it up😳

Monarch Man 19th May 2018 12:14

Dear Brian
 
Dear Brian,

Well its been an interesting week to say the least, all vestiges of a new broom or breath of fresh air have been well and truly dispelled, exactly as many predicted including most regular posters on here.
I believe it must be clear to you by now that our employer has very little interest in safety if it impacts negatively on the bottom line or worse, shows how inept the standard of management is, a state of affairs I'm certain a great many of my colleagues will have communicated to you at various moments.
The latest level of "acceptance" you have described is yet another erosion in safety standards masquerading its legitimacy behind a flawed and some might infer corrupt process, moreover its also clear that scant regard has been paid to the previous lessons that were learnt along with the more recent lessons relating to cumulative fatigue, safety margins and pilot retention.
As ever, pilots being pilots, the vast majority will attempt to complete the mission, the vast majority will complete the mission successfully, until one crew doesn't and that Brian is a great deal closer to occurring on your watch.
Make no mistake, if you continue to roll the dice and reduce margins luck eventually runs out.
I hope Brian that you can see that amongst the flight-crews who are still here, you can see a determination to maintain professional standards and keep doing the job to the best of our abilities, I also hope you can now see that the goodwill you sought to foster has in one decision been lost.
Best of Luck.

cheerios 19th May 2018 15:12


Originally Posted by glofish (Post 10151168)
Right now the most recent line in the OM-A that counts is:

​​​​​For 3 man crew operations, no extension is allowed beyond the FDP of 18 hours.

Yes, but that is for the 3 crew operations that are indicated in the table at the top of the section (eg. YYZ)

SOPS 19th May 2018 15:14

One thing is for sure, T and C's keep going only one way...and it aint good.

uplock 19th May 2018 16:42

900 BLOCK HRS is a CAR OPS requirement a year
 
You have normal FTLs then you have variations then you have LRV (Long Range Variation)
LRV MUST be of a higher standard or equivalent to normal FTLs they can not be of less standard.
Normal 3 man crew can go max 18 hours duty however as that is all-ready a variation you can not have further extension.
If by some chance you do go over the 18 hours Duty then a local nights rest is a requirement.

Incorrect of the company to state that your 900 limit is based on Stick time. Absolute fairy dust
If you are one of those pilots flying over 900 BLOCK hours in 12 months at the end of the previous month you are not legal, period.
Emirates have a lot of issues they are not admitting to. Flying pilots over 900 Block hours and saying stick time applies instead is yet another.
Check CAR-OPS 1 sub section Q copied below


CAR-OPS 1.1125 Absolute Limits on Flying Time and Duty Period
a. No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times;
(1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or
(2) during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours:

Clipper811 19th May 2018 16:47

Posting the below after seeing several inaccurate statements re USA Flight Time - Crew complement maximums.
  • 3 pilots can fly up to 13 flight hours max
  • 4 pilots can fly up to 17 flight hours max
More than 17 flight hours requires a special issuance approval to include programs for increased in base / out of base rest, post flight rest, etc.

Below is the actual published rules for flight time. The duty time limits, that is the cumulative time between work show to work end vary based on the pilot's start time.
Depending on the start time the window of allowable duty can be very small for flight times approaching 13 hours to fly with only 3 pilots. This is why many US pilots
think that 12 is the maximum for 3 pilot complement. If one is rostered for an morning westbound flight it's legal, and usual, at my airline to fly with 3 pilots. If there is
a delay we have bumped up on the duty limits and have had to cancel the segment.



============================================================ ==================================================

FAR 117.11 Flight time limitation.

(a) No certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept an assignment or continue an assigned flight duty period if the total flight time:

(1) Will exceed the limits specified in Table A of this part if the operation is conducted with the minimum required flightcrew.

(2) Will exceed 13 hours if the operation is conducted with a 3-pilot flightcrew.

(3) Will exceed 17 hours if the operation is conducted with a 4-pilot flightcrew.

in freedom 19th May 2018 16:54

By the way, where is Harry telling us that we got it all wrong? Another misunderstanding of the company‘s well intended rostering options. A good way for guys to build stick time quicker than before.

Or have they gone too far this time?


Smoke mountain 19th May 2018 18:33

what's next? is this legal ? according to the FAA or EASA?
i know that the GCAA in their pockets but the rest!

LHR Rain 19th May 2018 22:13


Originally Posted by in freedom (Post 10151441)
By the way, where is Harry telling us that we got it all wrong?

Or have they gone too far this time?


Rumour has it Harry is working on his applications to other airlines that is why we haven’t seen him in quite awhile.

SOPS 20th May 2018 02:05

I to have been wondering where Harry is. He was very quiet on the ( non) pay review and now we have this little gem of safety enhancement and productivity gain for no extra $$$$ ( BBJ must have got tips from TCAS), and still no comment from our Harry.

Shangaan 20th May 2018 05:23

I can bet my 5 weeks that Flight Dispatch will be asked allot by NCC to speed up the flights so that the FDP is still legal before dispatch.
I feel for you okes. Good luck. Keep it safe!

fliion 20th May 2018 07:07


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 10151727)
I to have been wondering where Harry is. He was very quiet on the ( non) pay review and now we have this little gem of safety enhancement and productivity gain for no extra $$$$ ( BBJ must have got tips from TCAS), and still no comment from our Harry.

In Harrys defense, I suspect he will be one of the first amongst many to email BBJ with his concerns.

I do hope many of the posters on here have backed up their venting with action.

Yes, It may not get it reversed but God forbid if there is an accident and subsequent investigation and presumably a civil trial - and it was shown that many had voiced their concerns but were ignored... you can at least hold your head up and say:
“I tried”

LongRangeNav 20th May 2018 07:32

Bravo Monarch Man, well written. Expessed how I feel precisely. We took Harry’s advice and gave the bloke a chance, and low and behold, we’re in than same position we’ve been in with every other shackled ‘leader’. Commercial vs Safety and we know who the winner is every time.

BR-Pilot 20th May 2018 08:18


Originally Posted by Fuel-Off (Post 10150144)
Couldnt find the link to the Brazilian ANAC anonymous reporting (if they have one?), any Brazilian lads or ladettes care to provide?

Couldn't find it either, but you can try sending an e-mail (it's ok in english) to the Brazilian Pilots/Cabin Crew Union (Sindicato Nacional dos Aeronautas). They are very serious with safety and fatigue issues and I believe they might take your report into consideration and forward (anonymously) to the concerned area at ANAC.

[email protected]


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