EK / Seychelles near miss - 14 July '17
Happens easily -
Be careful out there. |
Dead head back and pack your bags!!!!
The ME way. Forget about what these so called management have stuck on their doors in the office about just culture etc. It's a joke out here. |
320goat,
If that happens to someone in any Chinese carrier, Korean or even the Japanese ones, the results are the same. |
Back home, you will be grounded for months, for investigation,off the payroll . Best would have been to getaway without filing a report. Controller-pilot ego is not worth it.
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Whilst it might be considered a dirty word in many airlines these days, ffs, guys & gals there's this thing known as AIRMANSHIP !!!
There was certainly a mistake by ATC (for not picking up on the incorrect read back, by EK). That said, there was a lot of pertinent information being passed by ATC, though none of it was evidently picked up and / or acted upon by the EK crew (and / or the Seychelles crew... assuming that the latter were on frequency?)... and one would surmise, from their transmissions, that ATC were passing a big clue wrt opposite direction traffic (albeit EK were evidently not 'listening to' and / or interpreting upon that). So perhaps instead of sitting there fat, dumb, and happy, try instead listening-up to what's going on around you (especially when climbing & descending), i.e. try forming your own 'mental radar' picture / 'Situational Awareness' of where other aircraft are and where they are going to / where they are cleared to, and TCAS - when used in 'tactical mode', assuming you have it? - can often help here too... none of it's exactly f'ing rocket science, is it ?! |
In the first instance, Seychelles uses CPDLC. I wonder why they weren't logged on?
And, The controller should have picked up the improperly read back altitude clearance. One would also question why the pilots of the Seychelles flight didn't question the incorrect level read back? Situational awareness breakdown on all sides. Were the crew given a ME send-off? |
Back home, you will be grounded for months, for investigation,off the payroll . |
Originally Posted by The Outlaw
(Post 9832967)
In the first instance, Seychelles uses CPDLC. I wonder why they weren't logged on?
Situational awareness breakdown on all sides. |
Wow, there is a lot of self righteousness being displayed here. He read back what he heard and ATC failed to pick up the read back, that is on them. Then the next transmission he stated ATC was partially unreadable, indicating possibly weak or unclear transmissions. ATC shares liability in our business and in this case failed to correct the read back. The beginning of the video says it's a combination of frequencies so it's more than likely the aircraft weren't on the same frequency and never heard each others clearances and the controller was on multiple frequencies which probably led to his inattention to the read back. Also, traffic information is often given for opposite direction aircraft that are sometimes up to 20 miles away laterally, so that isn't necessarily an immediate threat. Finally, TCAS is there to fill in these gaps and it only sounded like a TA from one aircraft so they probably weren't as close as it seems.
There was a breakdown in the ATC communication system but it was mitigated by the other systems in place and nothing happened. Bottom line, don't be so quick to judge based on a you tube clip and limited information. It could easily happen to any of you situationally aware airmen. |
Mos,
Spot on 👍🏻. Though, there was still a chance the EK703 could have avoided this when ATC gave traffic information to Air SEZ about the EK703 descending to FL380. This was the last transmission before the separation became an issue, whether EK heard this or not is for the pay grades above ours to decide. |
Tell me more....:ugh:
With all do respect for the EK pilots but this printscreen is only intended to these two boys, not you all.... https://preview.ibb.co/m15VPa/Screen...t_10_45_11.png photo host sites |
Radio discipline
😂😂😂... And no, it's not on atc only, it's everyone responsibility to stay in the loop....
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I thought SA was restricted to checking the engine out altitude and pointing out some airports around you when you get to TOC or is that just technique, I can't remeber exactly.
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Listen out and assume you're in a non ATC region!
Originally Posted by Old King Coal
(Post 9832961)
Whilst it might be considered a dirty word in many airlines these days, ffs, guys & gals there's this thing known as AIRMANSHIP !!!
There was certainly a mistake by ATC (for not picking up on the incorrect read back, by EK). That said, there was a lot of pertinent information being passed by ATC, though none of it was evidently picked up and / or acted upon by the EK crew (and / or the Seychelles crew... assuming that the latter were on frequency?)... and one would surmise, from their transmissions, that ATC were passing a big clue wrt opposite direction traffic (albeit EK were evidently not 'listening to' and / or interpreting upon that). So perhaps instead of sitting there fat, dumb, and happy, try instead listening-up to what's going on around you (especially when climbing & descending), i.e. try forming your own 'mental radar' picture / 'Situational Awareness' of where other aircraft are and where they are going to / where they are cleared to, and TCAS - when used in 'tactical mode', assuming you have it? - can often help here too... none of it's exactly f'ing rocket science, is it ?! |
SA
Many places in that area, including india and seychelles have similar two way airways, mru has no power to open another parallel airway by itself, it takes lots of time and I guess is a long burocratic pain in the xxx.
The truth is that, flying those super technology airplanes is easier than programming the washing machine add to this that we are on autopilot fron 200 ft to 200ft so instead of relaxing too much thinking about how to harass the cc at the resort, we should pay close attention to what is happening around us, especially in those area and most important during descent, taking full advantage of the automation that is there to increase our SA. |
Not sure about MRU airspace but there are plenty of FIRs where it's not ATC responsibility to double check a read back. Also, the EK had numerous opportunities to work out out that there was climbing traffic ahead. Their SA dropped despite the traffic info from ATC. And finally, and most damning, if radio was less than perfect what were they doing following an instruction if they were unsure.
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Its not enough to just make a statement like "ATC is a threat today". How many times have you heard the guy sitting next to you say "we won't accept a clearance unless we are both happy we understand it" bla bla bla. How many actually do what they brief?
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Not wanting to bash the guys, but i have a hard time reading some statements on here (or for that matter on the A/SFO incident).
We constantly highlight our responsibility for up to 600 souls, defending our salaries, the need for qualified colleagues, the importance of experience and training ....... We constantly point to the importance of human presence in cockpits, its specific superiority when it comes to interpretation, foresight, basically SA ...... therefore, when it comes to a severe incident we should not as fast, even with well meant assistance to fellow aviators, or because it could happen to us as well, point to other participants (ATC), or possible automatic back-ups (CPDLC, TCAS) or cry for additional automatics. We are the finally responsible for safe flight and we are still well present in cockpits for a reason. Thus we have to assume responsibility! There were enough possibilities to pick up the error in understanding the clearance. The easiest one was when hearing the clearance for the opposing aircraft to climb to FL370. The next by the apparently not observing the oncoming and conflicting TCAS symbol. Simply these two omissions point to an irresponsible lack of SA. It will need a lot of investigating and convincing to change my two cents on this. |
He read back a clearance and wasn't challenged when he got it wrong. Who said he wasn't happy with it?
For descent into MRU the enroute controller CPDLCs to contact radar when ready for descent. At this point you are on the limit of VHF range. Some transmissions are good, some carrier wave only. So although you can hear all the transmissions on that YouTube clip, that does not mean the crew heard all of them. Who knows if the crew took action to avoid the conflict without asking them? The approaching traffic would have been displayed to a max of about 80 to 100nm away only when it was within 9000 feet of their ALT. Nothing abnormal about that until they leveled and the traffic kept climbing as it was cleared to. Many holes in the safety net here. Lucky training and TCAS prevented something bad from happening. No crew intentionally goes out of their way to cause an incident like this. But everyone can have a bad day. Good learning points for everybody. |
Poor SA simple. The A stands for what? They were not aware of traffic approaching 2000 below and excepts a clearance thought oncoming traffic's level. Let's wait for the report.
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Don,
You wouldn't ask yourself or speak out loud why ATC is "keeping" you from descending when the traffic he talks about is already above you? No alarm bells? |
Disregard my last, you guys are perfect and awesome. All 5s all the time...
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777 I don't know what they heard nor what they did. How can I make any comment without knowing any of the details. All I have heard is that youtube clip, which does not fully represent what was heard on that flight deck.
I think there are enough muppets in the fleet office that jump to conclusions without me having to do so. |
Poor SA by both crews and ATC. Regardless of what they could or could not hear from ATC, both crews clearly heard each others transmissions and both missed until it was almost too late.
What happened to the 3000' separation that they used to provide for the passing A/C's? What happened to the outbound radial the departing aircraft use to follow? This is too similar to places like China, Russia, Spain, France, etc., speaking non-english to other aircraft because now I have no idea what THEY are doing.:mad: |
They're both removed from roster, so it made it its way to management one way or another..
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I don't know what they heard nor what they did. How can I make any comment without knowing any of the details. All I have heard is that youtube clip, which does not fully represent what was heard on that flight deck I re-listened to the tape and, unfortunately, still get the impression of a lot of complacency, if not incompetence. No challenge, no reconfirmation. Even as the other aircraft reported avoiding action, which must have been on the frequency both aircraft were on, there was no query about anything. Our flight simply continued in silence. Even if there are multiple frequencies, changes and two ACCs involved, there needs to be more attentiveness. That lonely blip that comes at us is trained so many times in the sim, with querying ATC etc. etc., which makes the silence in this incident quite worrying. (Nothing to do with pretending to be awesome, sourpuss-mos) |
, both crews clearly heard each others transmissions and both missed until it was almost too late. |
I'm scratch my head every week when I read the ASRs - who are these guys "couldn't get level 400 so stayed at 380"
Then you come on here and you have widespread judgment on SA while non of you have the information on the 'situation'. Such one dimensional conclusions - is baffling. Maybe you are right but maybe... They were dealing with a tech issue Heard something on guard Were on to Med link Had a headset issue Had a door buzzzer go off Had a call from the back Had static on their radio Had the other guy in toilet with diarrhea I mean I don't know And neither do you ! What a fcukong emabarrasment we are... |
Sorry to say it "fli" but the recording has pilot error written all over it.
Wrong read-back of cleared level. Query from ATC as to passing current level and standby for further descent after passing the Air Seychelles at FL 370. Didn't they see the TCAS inbound threat and wonder why the traffic was becoming a likely threat and not query it? (It worries me in the transcript that Mauritius ATC was willing to "drop" the incident if Air Seychelles was). Just a few observations from the crewroom bar here. Stay safe, everyone is watching YOU!! J |
ATC were probably prepared to drop it because they aren't blameless either- they missed the incorrect readback. As usual, it takes more than one hole in the cheese.
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Originally Posted by BigGeordie
(Post 9834107)
ATC were probably prepared to drop it because they aren't blameless either- they missed the incorrect readback. As usual, it takes more than one hole in the cheese.
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Fair play to the Seychelles crew, turning to avoid visually acquired traffic.
There are those who would insist on sitting and waiting for TCAS to instruct them to avoid the big aeroplane getting bigger in the windscreen, rather than be pro-active and take appropriate action. |
would insist on sitting and waiting for TCAS to instruct them to avoid the big aeroplane getting bigger in the windscreen, rather than be pro-active and take appropriate action. |
Just like the realistic TCAS scenarios in the sim where we are told to fly straight at the other traffic heh? Reading between the lines, is the 380 so unsophisticated that this TCAS target wasn't viewable within 40nm or so? Not the crews finest hour for sure, but as an observation it's another chicken returning home to roost with respect to training, threat analysis and worst of all situational awareness, I'm glad I'm long out of it now. |
Originally Posted by Wizofoz
(Post 9834165)
Fair play to the Seychelles crew, turning to avoid visually acquired traffic.
There are those who would insist on sitting and waiting for TCAS to instruct them to avoid the big aeroplane getting bigger in the windscreen, rather than be pro-active and take appropriate action. That is what the company has been beating out of crew for years...basic airmanship. I think you're 100% correct, I'll bet more than 80% would sit there and watch it come head on. What ever did pilots do before TCAS? Its also most likely why it was only a TA (as heard in the recording) VS an RA which can be evidenced by the altitude data in the radar 24 data. Fliion, Not sure what your going on about and why... All of the excuses you posted are meaningless. What is clear from the evidence posted so far is that there were many mistakes made as a whole, both by crew and ATC not to mention a lack of SA. I'm sure there will be more facts come to light as the investigation progresses. Embarrassment? Re-read your post. Just a few days after JA's letter too. Any guesses what changes will come to the OM-A? |
Outlaw, sadly the changes that the future eventually holds will be removing the inevitable weak link that sits in the cockpit. The more mistakes that pilots make, the more the engineers and airlines are keen to remove us as a hole in the cheese.
Aviation to me appears to be regressing in safety as some pilots are tending to become increasingly more and more relaxed in their duties. I know I am going to watch for the inbound flak, but I am sorry to say that the standards of a lot of people I fly with these days is nothing too often that I am particularly proud to watch and applause. J |
Originally Posted by jack schidt
(Post 9834370)
Outlaw, sadly the changes that the future eventually holds will be removing the inevitable weak link that sits in the cockpit. The more mistakes that pilots make, the more the engineers and airlines are keen to remove us as a hole in the cheese.
Aviation to me appears to be regressing in safety as some pilots are tending to become increasingly more and more relaxed in their duties. I know I am going to watch for the inbound flak, but I am sorry to say that the standards of a lot of people I fly with these days is nothing too often that I am particularly proud to watch and applause. J Some pilots have a firm grasp on the non-esseentials, can recite the SOP at nauseam but can't calculate a descent in their heads or do basic math with regard to ZFW changes etc. It's become a "Book" industry as lawyers and managers alike want it all in a book so they can hang you with it when a mistake is made. In my generation, newcomers went through a long period of "seasoning" before they could even consider a left seat, it was a result of the long times to command. Sitting beside some of these grumpy old bastards at the time was a pain in the backside but they taught us a lot of the good stuff that you just can't get from a book. Its been my observation during the past 20 years that the casualties of the modern cockpit is airmanship, cockpit discipline, over reliance on automation and general experience. There was a time when aircraft flew VOR radials out of and into airports, altimeters where less accurate, there was no TCAS and no websites with live ATC for everyone to listen to. This case might not have ever made it to any manager in the past but as was posted earlier, we operate in a glass bubble today. For all we know PPRUNE might have been management's first indication that this event happened! However, they share in some of the blame in the decline as well. Higher monthly hours mean controlled rest in the flight deck which removes redundancy when operating with one pilot. The lack of a pilot union is another reduction in safety as there is no channeled input from the pilot group to share information in a unbiased manner. |
Aviation to me appears to be regressing in safety Aviation is getting safer every year. https://www.icao.int/safety/iStars/P...tatistics.aspx |
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
(Post 9834408)
Nice haughty bar conversation starter but the FACTS do not bear this out.
Aviation is getting safer every year. https://www.icao.int/safety/iStars/P...tatistics.aspx At a glance, the accident rate has gone up since 2015 after riding a decreasing trend. The accident rate has increased but the fatality rate has decreased. |
Amen to Outlaw and Jack, same goes to Wiz and ....... yes, White Knight!
Question now is, how can this be fixed? |
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