EK / Seychelles near miss - 14 July '17
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Dead head back and pack your bags!!!!
The ME way.
Forget about what these so called management have stuck on their doors in the office about just culture etc. It's a joke out here.
The ME way.
Forget about what these so called management have stuck on their doors in the office about just culture etc. It's a joke out here.
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Back home, you will be grounded for months, for investigation,off the payroll . Best would have been to getaway without filing a report. Controller-pilot ego is not worth it.
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Whilst it might be considered a dirty word in many airlines these days, ffs, guys & gals there's this thing known as AIRMANSHIP !!!
There was certainly a mistake by ATC (for not picking up on the incorrect read back, by EK). That said, there was a lot of pertinent information being passed by ATC, though none of it was evidently picked up and / or acted upon by the EK crew (and / or the Seychelles crew... assuming that the latter were on frequency?)... and one would surmise, from their transmissions, that ATC were passing a big clue wrt opposite direction traffic (albeit EK were evidently not 'listening to' and / or interpreting upon that).
So perhaps instead of sitting there fat, dumb, and happy, try instead listening-up to what's going on around you (especially when climbing & descending), i.e. try forming your own 'mental radar' picture / 'Situational Awareness' of where other aircraft are and where they are going to / where they are cleared to, and TCAS - when used in 'tactical mode', assuming you have it? - can often help here too... none of it's exactly f'ing rocket science, is it ?!
There was certainly a mistake by ATC (for not picking up on the incorrect read back, by EK). That said, there was a lot of pertinent information being passed by ATC, though none of it was evidently picked up and / or acted upon by the EK crew (and / or the Seychelles crew... assuming that the latter were on frequency?)... and one would surmise, from their transmissions, that ATC were passing a big clue wrt opposite direction traffic (albeit EK were evidently not 'listening to' and / or interpreting upon that).
So perhaps instead of sitting there fat, dumb, and happy, try instead listening-up to what's going on around you (especially when climbing & descending), i.e. try forming your own 'mental radar' picture / 'Situational Awareness' of where other aircraft are and where they are going to / where they are cleared to, and TCAS - when used in 'tactical mode', assuming you have it? - can often help here too... none of it's exactly f'ing rocket science, is it ?!
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In the first instance, Seychelles uses CPDLC. I wonder why they weren't logged on?
And, The controller should have picked up the improperly read back altitude clearance. One would also question why the pilots of the Seychelles flight didn't question the incorrect level read back?
Situational awareness breakdown on all sides.
Were the crew given a ME send-off?
And, The controller should have picked up the improperly read back altitude clearance. One would also question why the pilots of the Seychelles flight didn't question the incorrect level read back?
Situational awareness breakdown on all sides.
Were the crew given a ME send-off?
Back home, you will be grounded for months, for investigation,off the payroll .
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Wow, there is a lot of self righteousness being displayed here. He read back what he heard and ATC failed to pick up the read back, that is on them. Then the next transmission he stated ATC was partially unreadable, indicating possibly weak or unclear transmissions. ATC shares liability in our business and in this case failed to correct the read back. The beginning of the video says it's a combination of frequencies so it's more than likely the aircraft weren't on the same frequency and never heard each others clearances and the controller was on multiple frequencies which probably led to his inattention to the read back. Also, traffic information is often given for opposite direction aircraft that are sometimes up to 20 miles away laterally, so that isn't necessarily an immediate threat. Finally, TCAS is there to fill in these gaps and it only sounded like a TA from one aircraft so they probably weren't as close as it seems.
There was a breakdown in the ATC communication system but it was mitigated by the other systems in place and nothing happened. Bottom line, don't be so quick to judge based on a you tube clip and limited information. It could easily happen to any of you situationally aware airmen.
There was a breakdown in the ATC communication system but it was mitigated by the other systems in place and nothing happened. Bottom line, don't be so quick to judge based on a you tube clip and limited information. It could easily happen to any of you situationally aware airmen.
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Mos,
Spot on 👍🏻. Though, there was still a chance the EK703 could have avoided this when ATC gave traffic information to Air SEZ about the EK703 descending to FL380. This was the last transmission before the separation became an issue, whether EK heard this or not is for the pay grades above ours to decide.
Spot on 👍🏻. Though, there was still a chance the EK703 could have avoided this when ATC gave traffic information to Air SEZ about the EK703 descending to FL380. This was the last transmission before the separation became an issue, whether EK heard this or not is for the pay grades above ours to decide.
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Tell me more....
With all do respect for the EK pilots but this printscreen is only intended to these two boys, not you all....
photo host sites
With all do respect for the EK pilots but this printscreen is only intended to these two boys, not you all....
photo host sites
Last edited by lfbb; 17th Jul 2017 at 08:11.
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I thought SA was restricted to checking the engine out altitude and pointing out some airports around you when you get to TOC or is that just technique, I can't remeber exactly.
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Listen out and assume you're in a non ATC region!
Whilst it might be considered a dirty word in many airlines these days, ffs, guys & gals there's this thing known as AIRMANSHIP !!!
There was certainly a mistake by ATC (for not picking up on the incorrect read back, by EK). That said, there was a lot of pertinent information being passed by ATC, though none of it was evidently picked up and / or acted upon by the EK crew (and / or the Seychelles crew... assuming that the latter were on frequency?)... and one would surmise, from their transmissions, that ATC were passing a big clue wrt opposite direction traffic (albeit EK were evidently not 'listening to' and / or interpreting upon that).
So perhaps instead of sitting there fat, dumb, and happy, try instead listening-up to what's going on around you (especially when climbing & descending), i.e. try forming your own 'mental radar' picture / 'Situational Awareness' of where other aircraft are and where they are going to / where they are cleared to, and TCAS - when used in 'tactical mode', assuming you have it? - can often help here too... none of it's exactly f'ing rocket science, is it ?!
There was certainly a mistake by ATC (for not picking up on the incorrect read back, by EK). That said, there was a lot of pertinent information being passed by ATC, though none of it was evidently picked up and / or acted upon by the EK crew (and / or the Seychelles crew... assuming that the latter were on frequency?)... and one would surmise, from their transmissions, that ATC were passing a big clue wrt opposite direction traffic (albeit EK were evidently not 'listening to' and / or interpreting upon that).
So perhaps instead of sitting there fat, dumb, and happy, try instead listening-up to what's going on around you (especially when climbing & descending), i.e. try forming your own 'mental radar' picture / 'Situational Awareness' of where other aircraft are and where they are going to / where they are cleared to, and TCAS - when used in 'tactical mode', assuming you have it? - can often help here too... none of it's exactly f'ing rocket science, is it ?!
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SA
Many places in that area, including india and seychelles have similar two way airways, mru has no power to open another parallel airway by itself, it takes lots of time and I guess is a long burocratic pain in the xxx.
The truth is that, flying those super technology airplanes is easier than programming the washing machine add to this that we are on autopilot fron 200 ft to 200ft so instead of relaxing too much thinking about how to harass the cc at the resort, we should pay close attention to what is happening around us, especially in those area and most important during descent, taking full advantage of the automation that is there to increase our SA.
The truth is that, flying those super technology airplanes is easier than programming the washing machine add to this that we are on autopilot fron 200 ft to 200ft so instead of relaxing too much thinking about how to harass the cc at the resort, we should pay close attention to what is happening around us, especially in those area and most important during descent, taking full advantage of the automation that is there to increase our SA.
Not sure about MRU airspace but there are plenty of FIRs where it's not ATC responsibility to double check a read back. Also, the EK had numerous opportunities to work out out that there was climbing traffic ahead. Their SA dropped despite the traffic info from ATC. And finally, and most damning, if radio was less than perfect what were they doing following an instruction if they were unsure.
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Its not enough to just make a statement like "ATC is a threat today". How many times have you heard the guy sitting next to you say "we won't accept a clearance unless we are both happy we understand it" bla bla bla. How many actually do what they brief?
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Not wanting to bash the guys, but i have a hard time reading some statements on here (or for that matter on the A/SFO incident).
We constantly highlight our responsibility for up to 600 souls, defending our salaries, the need for qualified colleagues, the importance of experience and training .......
We constantly point to the importance of human presence in cockpits, its specific superiority when it comes to interpretation, foresight, basically SA ......
therefore, when it comes to a severe incident we should not as fast, even with well meant assistance to fellow aviators, or because it could happen to us as well, point to other participants (ATC), or possible automatic back-ups (CPDLC, TCAS) or cry for additional automatics.
We are the finally responsible for safe flight and we are still well present in cockpits for a reason. Thus we have to assume responsibility!
There were enough possibilities to pick up the error in understanding the clearance. The easiest one was when hearing the clearance for the opposing aircraft to climb to FL370. The next by the apparently not observing the oncoming and conflicting TCAS symbol.
Simply these two omissions point to an irresponsible lack of SA. It will need a lot of investigating and convincing to change my two cents on this.
We constantly highlight our responsibility for up to 600 souls, defending our salaries, the need for qualified colleagues, the importance of experience and training .......
We constantly point to the importance of human presence in cockpits, its specific superiority when it comes to interpretation, foresight, basically SA ......
therefore, when it comes to a severe incident we should not as fast, even with well meant assistance to fellow aviators, or because it could happen to us as well, point to other participants (ATC), or possible automatic back-ups (CPDLC, TCAS) or cry for additional automatics.
We are the finally responsible for safe flight and we are still well present in cockpits for a reason. Thus we have to assume responsibility!
There were enough possibilities to pick up the error in understanding the clearance. The easiest one was when hearing the clearance for the opposing aircraft to climb to FL370. The next by the apparently not observing the oncoming and conflicting TCAS symbol.
Simply these two omissions point to an irresponsible lack of SA. It will need a lot of investigating and convincing to change my two cents on this.
He read back a clearance and wasn't challenged when he got it wrong. Who said he wasn't happy with it?
For descent into MRU the enroute controller CPDLCs to contact radar when ready for descent. At this point you are on the limit of VHF range. Some transmissions are good, some carrier wave only. So although you can hear all the transmissions on that YouTube clip, that does not mean the crew heard all of them. Who knows if the crew took action to avoid the conflict without asking them? The approaching traffic would have been displayed to a max of about 80 to 100nm away only when it was within 9000 feet of their ALT. Nothing abnormal about that until they leveled and the traffic kept climbing as it was cleared to.
Many holes in the safety net here. Lucky training and TCAS prevented something bad from happening.
No crew intentionally goes out of their way to cause an incident like this. But everyone can have a bad day.
Good learning points for everybody.
For descent into MRU the enroute controller CPDLCs to contact radar when ready for descent. At this point you are on the limit of VHF range. Some transmissions are good, some carrier wave only. So although you can hear all the transmissions on that YouTube clip, that does not mean the crew heard all of them. Who knows if the crew took action to avoid the conflict without asking them? The approaching traffic would have been displayed to a max of about 80 to 100nm away only when it was within 9000 feet of their ALT. Nothing abnormal about that until they leveled and the traffic kept climbing as it was cleared to.
Many holes in the safety net here. Lucky training and TCAS prevented something bad from happening.
No crew intentionally goes out of their way to cause an incident like this. But everyone can have a bad day.
Good learning points for everybody.
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Poor SA simple. The A stands for what? They were not aware of traffic approaching 2000 below and excepts a clearance thought oncoming traffic's level. Let's wait for the report.
