Emirates. Not that bad, surely?
 

I have recently been asked via Private Message if EK is really as bad as it is painted on these pages. Surely people exaggerate or even make things up for their own nefarious ends? It can't be possible for a major international airline- and wannabe major international brand- to behave in such an uncaring and cavalier fashion towards its employees. Can it?

Well, I have plenty of time to write a reply at the moment as I'm on a flight back to Dubai from my home country. I had six days off in a row, which is a reasonably rare event but not unheard of, so I went home for four days. I got downgraded to economy on the way out, despite having a waitlisted ID50 for business class. On the way back there was only one flight in two days where I was fairly confident I would get on at all and this is a destination with three flights per day. This is in late February, not school or public holiday time. Here is the first lesson- do not think it is easy to use staff travel when you do get days off especially with low seniority. Flights are very often full and, especially travelling with a family, it will be a stressful experience. It also starts to get expensive very quickly. Even ID90s are far from free.

More observant readers will have noticed that, although I had six days off, I only went home for four. This is because after my days off I am rostered for an ultra long haul flight and the company demands that I be back in Dubai for three full nights before such a duty. It is very common to have such flights rostered after a block of days off and it can often completely prevent travel. It is worth mentioning that the majority of pilots I have spoken too believe that the company's interpretation of the flight time limitations is not correct and there is no legal need to be in Dubai so early. However, only the company's interpretation matters and it is not negotiable. This is lesson two- having days off does not mean you are free of the demands of the company. It is also worth mentioning at this point that the company, being a government entity, does not have to follow any employment laws. Even in Dubai, where the employment laws tend to be biased in favour of employers, that is worth having a good think about but before you sign up.

My wife decided to stay at home for a couple of weeks. Or possibly months. As she pointed out, I am only actually in Dubai for 12 “useful” days in March. “Useful” means days when I have not just got back from a long flight at 6am and am either in bed or exhausted for the rest of the day. I am flying 100 hours in March and the last three months have all been between 95 and 105, with a similar number of days in Dubai. Not surprisingly my spouse is getting sick of effectively living on her own as I am often away for five or six days at a time. Everyone's marriage is different and I leave it up to you to speculate on the effect living like this is likely to have on yours. Lesson three. The job is a marriage wrecker. The irony is a lot of people bring their families to Dubai for a better life, then never see them. Or the wife gets sick of being a one parent family and goes back home. With your children. You will see them even less then- see lesson 1.

I actually did relatively well for leave this year and got some of what I wanted. However, I still have 7 days of “forced leave” allocated by the company at a time of year I certainly wouldn't have chosen. This 7 day block finishes only three weeks before a period of leave I actually asked for. I have no doubt, based on past experience, that I will be flying for 90 hours during the month when I have this week “off”. As that is almost a normal month's roster the leave is actually only the days off for the month compressed together. Lesson four and five- you don't choose when your holiday is, the company does and it isn't really holiday at all as you still do the same amount of work that month. Working here, you are tired and jet lagged. Constantly.

When I joined Emirates, just over a decade ago, I left a secure job at a reputable European airline. Indeed, I was just coming up for my wide body command there. Nobody I spoke to at the time, either inside or outside Emirates, thought it was a bad idea. This was one of the best jobs to have in aviation in terms of both lifestyle and salary. Indeed some people in my previous company were positively envious. Now, I doubt any pilot inside Emirates would give an unqualified yes to the question, “Should I apply?”

The sixth and final (for now) lesson. If you join today the terms and conditions you experience will be the best you will get for your time here. In ten plus years I can't think of anything I could honestly say has improved. Other posts have mentioned the rampant inflation (and, coming soon, VAT- for an instant 5% pay cut) and the difficulty of saving on an F/O salary.

So there you go. No, we aren't making it up. Almost all of the posts are true and when somebody does post something that is completely wrong somebody else will correct it pretty quickly. After all this is the internet!

Seconded.

While I did still enjoy the flying and colleagues in EK, I just couldnt stand the workload and irregular pattern any more.

As several have said before, the money as a Captain is still pretty good, questionable however if it is worth your health and family life. And as an FO, forget about saving if you come to Dubai with kids. Single guy or girl is different.

A month later and I am slowly regaining a normal circadian rythm. I cannot describe the feeling of being able to go to bed more or less the same time every night. And waking up in the morning actually feeling refreshed.

For anyone claiming 'It cant be that bad; in XXX Airline we fly 6 sectors per day and fly 90+ hour months. Just remember that most of us that fly or flew EK also flew for XXX Airline previously. The jetlag and irregular pattern combination has to be experienced before you can truly appreciate the longterm effects.

Still, EK may work for some. It didnt work for us any longer though.

What Big G x 10.
The reality is not any different to the posts as you see them, yes I am sure there is a version of events that differs from another perspective, but thats interpretation rather than reality.
I had occasion to be back in Dubai a week or two back and managed to have a chat with a few of my ex EK colleagues, they were in unison, without prompting I add, ALL working on their exit plans. All spoke at length about the issues that have gone around and around on this board, one friend in particular has had a recent issue where he was falsely accused of a minor breach by a junior member of staff, this breach he was accused of occurred on a flight he didn't operate, and nor was he actually working that day, nor has he worked with the accuser and yet he is now in possession of a warning letter that effectively removes all chance for receiving any profit share if granted and he has NO recourse.
I left over 6 months ago, I renewed my medical the other day, BP normal (at EK I was considered hypertensive), 6kg lighter and fitter, and I've never felt better.
Think EK won't shorten your life? dream on if you don't.

!00% true from all 3 above. Off = recovery, if lucky. It's no life and the cash is well short to compensate such an existence.

Every EK Pilot would agree with Big Geordie 100% on the money. I don't know any pilot that can see themselves staying within the next 1-3 years of the company.

Says it all. :ok:

It seems we haven't met then. Speak for yourself and not for all....

:ok:
They should introduce a like button!

falconeasydriver

Without wishing to drift off subject, your 'friend' with the warning. Obviously this is his side of the story but in any event, profit share is only blocked if on a final warning, not a written one. If he did indeed have a final warning, then he also has the right to appeal.

Doesn't seem to add up to me.

BYMONEK,

I'm no Barack room lawyer these days, nor am I sufficiently familiar with the HR policies or terminology at EK anymore. I can tell you I read the letter, I reviewed the dates mentioned and then reviewed his roster for that month, the text contained within clearly stated the removal of any type of bonus or profit share.
In respect of his version vs the company/accuser version of events the letter contained both factual errors and referred to events in a fashion with what would best be described as heresay in any normal context. My friend had absolutely nothing to gain or any axe to grind before this mess landed in his lap. Suffice to say he has saved himself a great amount of stress and frustration and accepted his fate, he accepted it for around 10 days, then, the day after our little reunion, he resigned.

That's why the company run all over us. Pussy captains not standing up for themselves. A real pity.

Motley flight crue :

I'm not an EK employee nor do I work for any Middle Eastern Carrier and nor am I an expat.

Once you are a Captain , in any company for that matter , you have very little "weight" outside the Flight Deck. Maybe in the queue at your company coffee shop but that's about it.

You can't expect an expat , Captain or not , to "fight" contractual issues.

In the Middle East you are an expat first , then a captain or FO.

No one in management gives a flying $&!? ......If you join any company as an Expat you got to "take it lying down".

Incredible stories
 

The problem with these incredible stories is that there is absolutely no legal relief under the UAE feudal system. There is not even a concept that the government (your boss) could ever be wrong. Hence when it happens it all goes to hell very quickly. Don't think that it only happens to others.

Big G
3 local nights before = Only EK have picked up on this for sure. By all means but treat fatigue seriously and do your part EK. Treat pilots with respect and they will turn up well rested. I would only mention then the commercial risk of coming in the day before. On standby and you don't get on time to splash cash for a full fare.

Leave = more difficult I'm afraid you can't expect time off when yoiu expect it all the time.
Ifyou want it when you want go work in the office will be the answer sorry

Motley, nothing like a keyboard warrior such as yourself to pass judgement without the benefit of intelligence nor compassion, you sir are reprehensible. I'm sure in your version of utopia there is nothing you can't accomplish

What_goes_up -

You must be a Middle Easterner... Say no more...

Sounds just like Cathay except there the housing and pay are also sh*t.:sad:

Gulf Air 2.0

What can you expect from the 3rd floor Muppets?

Falcon, I did have a situation, was wrongly punished, and refused the outcome until I got to see AS. Guess what, it was overturned! If your right, conduct yourself properly and state your case then things can change.

@Versace
Central European coming from a major there...
Over 10 years in EK and still wouldn't go back.
It's not that nothing is wrong here... But it's not as bad as portrayed.
But even if I was from the Middle East I would be part of the "every EK pilot community" you elected to represent in your post.

I second that comment!
Look for the bad and guess what; you'll find it...
Enjoy the good and guess what; you're happy...
It's all up to you guys. Be negative, or be positive. I choose the latter and I'm enjoying myself.

😎 BOF

Upgrades are taking longer and longer. some pilots are now realizing , more so on the 777, that they need attrition in order to upgrade. Hence the sky is falling on Pprune.
Last month 70k in the bank , company housing, OT, TRI pay, 13 days off. Close to 15 years , exit plan not because of EK or Dubai but because the money bucket almost full.

Making up problems to, hopefully, accelerate the upgrade seems a stretch, Fatbus.

Guys complaining because their upgrade is taking longer than they would like has zero impact on my stay/go mindset. Maybe that is just me, though.

Certainly doesn't explain the FOs leaving. Especially the ones that are in the upgrade window now.

Knowing you're leaving and your financial future is secure must make these issues less serious to you. If one is considering their longer term career, however, they take on more significance.

I'm not going looking for the bad, it comes to find me. There are still some positives about the job- the people I fly with are generally great and I manage to save a bit of money every month. After over a decade here I would damn well hope I would!

My money bucket is nowhere near full yet and I fully accept that the days of coming to the Land of Sand for 10 years and then retiring were over about 40 years ago. I have looked at jobs back in Europe and, for me, they didn't work. Hence I'm staying at Emirates a bit longer. This doesn't mean I don't want to be out as quickly as possible it just means that I'm approaching an age (and a seniority) where it is better for me to stay than to go. Would I come now, if I was in the same position I was when I first joined? No chance. Ten years ago I recommended Emirates to people in my old company. No way I would do that now.

To those who are still saying you have to look at the positives and it isn't that bad, not really, I would say: I don't know how long you have been here but tell me what about the job has improved in the time you have worked for Emirates? Because in 10 years just about everything I can think of, from leave to staff travel to inflation adjusted salary has deteriorated. Birdie on first and what goes up, I'm talking to you.

There are the aqueducts?

Well, yes, obviously. And sanitation, roads, irrigation, medicine, education, wine and public order. But apart from that...

Actually there are certain similarities to the way the Holy Roman Empire ran things (they thought they ruled by Divine Right. Until suddenly they didn't) and Emirates...

To the youngsters who have no idea what we are on about, well, you just have no culture. Sorry.

BigG
I don't disagree with you. A lot of things are not the same as they used to be. But such is the industry... Aviation is not the same it used to be 15 years ago.
If I compare what I have here to what I could get if I did the move, this is still the best option... That is true for myself and my family.
If one doesn't like it and has options.. Move on. If no other options, put up with it and don't make your life bitter (and others... :-) )

Fatbus,

Do you consider 13 days off to be a positive or a negative? In the aviation world I grew up with a wide body pilot would expect at least 18 off in a month. 70k tax free is good but you are working your tail off to achieve that number. Doesn't Ryan Air give you at least 13 days off without having to cross up to 12 time zones? Are Ryan Air rosters the new gold standard? :yuk:

It is the best option at the moment, out of a pretty bad bunch, for me and my family as well- which is why I'm still here. However, I've already been here a long time so my situation is different to a 20-something who is just starting off a 25 year stint.

You said in your post, "It's not as bad as portrayed". So perhaps I should rephrase my question to, "Which parts of the portrayal on this board are inaccurate?" After all, that is the question which kicked off the whole thread and I think it deserves an answer. I've said, and backed up with personal experience, that it is pretty much as it is described.

I really think that it is important to get a balanced response because I'm a bit fed up flying with F/Os who are thoroughly disillusioned after only a year or two in the company. They joined thinking Pprune was a gross exaggeration from a few bitter and twisted individuals who wouldn't be happy anywhere. Then they discovered, the hard way and much too late, that what is written here is pretty accurate.

Blinders
 

BOF is a 380 captain and completely oblivious as to the suffering of his colleges. He is in a seat that virtually no new hire will ever be in. He enjoys 50-100% more days off then my fleet with the added bonus of 7.000 aed more than us. For him life is GREAT!!. The rest of us should shut up, as we are cramping his vibe.

What_goes_up,
Disagree with you. The industry as a whole has improved dramatically as compared to 15 years ago. Remember what happened to decimate the industry almost 15 years ago, look at the profits most well run airlines are experiencing and look at the employment opportunities compared to 15 years ago. EK seems to be the exception, not the rule. As the landscape improves for airlines, most are returning their major investment (employees) to a level not seen in decades. Not there yet but getting there.....except EK. Retirements of pilots and the price of fuel is "fueling" a robust return of T&Cs at many major worldwide airlines for pilots. Why is EK different? Ask yourself that.

WGU, can you name three things that have improved at EK for its flight crew, with regards to T&Cs, over the last decade. Anything? Loss of buying power, loss of annual leave, restriction of days off in a row, 25% increase in flying hours to over 100 hours per month for many, forced moves from long term accommodations, school fees not covering the cost of education, productivity hours threshold increased....do I need to go on. Well, there has been increase in the utilities allowance (there I named one for you). And not even mentioning the basics, just what has been lost over the last decade. Why aren't these loses being restored as other major airlines are doing? So if T&Cs continue to be deteriorated during these good times, what's to prevent more to be taken from us? There is nothing that will or could prevent that from continuing. Operations keep chugging along and new joiners continue to show up.

So Big G, all you say is spot on. Those reading these pages have to take this to heart. Perhaps if one's airline is in the "toilet", EK could be an improvement to one's career. Good luck.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:Then you must ask yourself, why are you still here, if there are so many better options out there.
All I was referring to, was that just because some individuals hate it here, it is not necessarily true for all of us. Some like it here for whatever (for you and the likes) obscure reason. All I know is that if I hated the place that much, I would not be here anymore but found some better QOL (maybe for the price of less money...). Done that before and would do it again.
Out of this discussion as I am not here to change anyone's opinion.

13 days off plus 2 rest days plus 2 midnight arrivals . Also just because it's a wide body does not mean it's a long haul operation. Yes some airlines still have @18 days off flying wide body long haul, not denying that. Can't compare Delta 777 to EK. Compare EK to CX or SQ or CZ or KE to get an idea of which is better or not.

thank you for the posts. From both sides....

I see it less as pilot bitching more of here is how my life has changed and examples given.

I know there are a ton of more pilots reading this thread that haven't commented but keep clicking "refresh"

WGU,
I am still here for various reasons which precludes most of the options I talked about. Not bitter at all and enjoying my time here, knowing it will not be a career here. But you stated the industry has gone downhill for the last 15 years. I'm disagreeing because for the last few years it is climbing and climbing healthy. And many of the flight crew ARE reaping the benefits of this recovery. Meanwhile, EK continues to take. You cannot deny that. Abused wives stay with their abusers for many reasons. Doesn't mean they're not abused. And perhaps for many, this is a better option than their present situation. Just be prepared for nothing more positive with regard to T&Cs.

But still waiting for three things that have improved with regard to T&Cs for the entire pilot group, in the last decade.

With only a couple of exceptions of low paid companies now trying to compete with locos for staff, that simply isn't true. I wish it was, though.

With respect to the last couple of posters, you are missing the point of this thread. We know terms and conditions are flexible at Emirates and changes are always in favour of the company. We also know that, generally, the industry has been going downhill for the last 10 years.

I started this thread because somebody asked me if things were really as bad as people on Pprune say they are. So far, nobody has been able to point to any glaring inaccuracies in any of the posts about Emirates. There are worse (and better) airlines out there, there always will be. For any potential joiners though I think the overriding lesson is to read the posts on the numerous EK threads very carefully. Because they are almost all accurate. Then make your own decision but don't sit next to me in 2 or 3 years (I'll probably still be here, trying to save enough to leave) complaining that it is worse than you thought it would be.

Greetings Desert Dwellers,

Firstly apologies for resurrecting an old thread but I didn't feel like creating a new one as I thought this one would be perfectly adequate to get my questions across. I must admit that this particular thread among-st the many other surprisingly abundant 'EK is not OK' types I've been binging on has really jaded my mind set as to whether coming over to the pit would 'really' prove worthwhile.....Can someone please provide me some updated info on advancement within the company? Is it based on seniority, merit, something else? I'm coming from a 2300+ total hours with about 2000 on the 738 background, in a company/situation that I have grown tired of and fed up with, the way I see it it simply can't get worse than where I am. My expectation would be to get some wide body experience and then maybe an upgrade ~5-6 years thereafter? Please feel free to rain on my parade or correct my Utopian expectations accordingly.

Just a bit of background info; In my late twenties, due to get married very soon. Currently an SFO at an Irish LOCO and I'm seriously considering the long haul opportunity the likes of EK/QR are offering with a goal/mindset/game plan to come to the desert do my time of a decade or so worth of graft and come back to Blighty hoping to be mortgage free with some respectable savings amassed in the process. For the record I'm not one of those self absorbed blingy flashy social media lothario types. Me and my wife to be are simply seeking to make the most of what we got whilst were young and able really. So I'm under no illusion of becoming a pilot gazzilionaire down there. Just sick and tired of slogging it in the LOCO world that's all...anyways meaningless rant over :O

I've always had a good impression on the aforementioned carriers, that is until I resorted to some heavy Googling of late which has left me a little bewildered or just in denial about the conditions over there, then I think to myself it surely can't get any worse then where I am; on a zero hour contract,no free H20, perkless on all accounts. What other credible outfit actually charges their own for RSTs/LPC/OPC. To top it off the recent absurd remarks spouted by the head harpist in the media makes you sick to the stomach, absolute defamation of the profession and its resolute workforce SMH. Anyways, I really don't have any viable contacts to consult with over there....hence why I'm making a plea on here really, Sigh, I've really got some big decisions ahead of me and frankly any advise/suggestions/guidance on the matter would be immensely appreciated either on here or via PM

Thank you for your time & have a Good evening folks!

EM

"I see it simply can't get worse"

Sorry, to destroy your view it is getting worse every day!

EK is following the Ryanair model, so better stay where you are.

Putting opinions aside, you will need at least 6000hrs and be over 35 to get command here. You will also need to be lucky and play the game as you simply have no rights.

If you end up on the 777, you have to be 32 to get a command. The Whale is more special so you have to be 35 to be anointed.