Emirates ULR screwing!!!
 

Well here we go, the rot is really setting in.
Just how much can EK screw their crews.

With fatigue levels on the up and poor in flight crew rest facilities how much further can they push pilots?



Boeing Colleagues –

As we start into the summer schedule the flight times on the DXB-JFK-DXB flights have been modified due to the reduction in seasonal winds. This allows us to reduce the augment on selected DXB-JFK-DXB flights to free up additional manpower for assignment to other operations.

Beginning with EK 201 28th March and EK 202 29th March, the augmentation plan will revert to one Captain and two First Officers for the following flights only:



EK 201 DXB-JFK

EK 202 JFK-DXB

Not new Puff - it was flown this way on the 345 2 Capts and 1 F/O summer '05 and '06 I seem to recall. Just 201, not 203..

It leaves them very little room to play with and as they saw a few yrs back on the bus it didn't work. We are all knackered(tired) and it's alot easier to refuse to go into descretion on a single sector!
Wouldn't get to worried as it's going to the 380 soon, so now they get ICN and JFK on reduced crew!!
:zzz:

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the "usual" policy? 2 captains and 2 f/o's correct?

Yes 2 Capts & 2 F/O's

Question for all the capts going on 201/203. Will you take your break in the CRC or will you try something else? You all know what the problems could or might be with the PIC some 70 mtrs behind the cockpit with 300+ passengers between you and the cockpit. This is not to "disrespect" any of the f/o's by any means, but you are the PIC and the final arbitor of the decision making process or at least should be. We could argue this all day long.....but here could be an abstract case or two. You, the only captain on the a/c. Both f/o's have not been allowed or failed upgrade. Things happen while you are in the CRC....the company says no problem because both f/o's are qualified etc. But then shouldn't they be allowed to upgrade. Or what if they both have only a few hundred hours on EK aircraft. By EK standards they are not qualified to upgrade, but can make all decisions during an emergency with you, the captain, unable to physically make it back to the cockpit.

I hope you are able to see what I am getting at. Ek says on one hand these guys are restricted to be able to upgrade because, blah blah. But EK has no problem allowing them to make decisions and fly the aircraft in a dire emergency situation where the PIC can't get back to the cockpit.

So captain, again, where do you take your rest knowing the restrictions we have?

Oh, BTW, it's the winds again.....:ugh:

Two articles from our FOM make it quite easy to stay up front, close to the cockpit, unless you want to immediatly fall illegal in an emergency. Simply because the skipper would NOT be able to comply in the torpedo tube:

The following are occasions on which the Captain is required to assume the
duties of PF irrespective of prior allocations:
During a rejected takeoff.
During certain emergency or abnormal procedures.

[the Captain has to ensure ]... that in an emergency situation that requires immediate decision and action, the Commander or the pilot to whom conduct of the flight has been delegated may deviate from rules, operational procedures and methods to take any action he considers necessary under the circumstances in the interest of safety

Interpretation is up to the individual skipper, to me though it is crystal clear: In an emergency in the torpedo tube we are illegal and would be held accountable.

Can't remember how many minutes you have before going in discretion with a 3 pilot crew, but when it was AB, a captain walked off twice with the crew as he wasn't going in discretion out of DXB. Was called in the office an threatened with dismissal.
He basically told them he would sue them big time and never heard anything after that.

A man with serious cohones, and a hero ever since.

I walked out twice too and never heard a damn thing, no call no email, had 20 min delay and was out of hours, NO discretion out of homebase

I forgot to mention, the next day the next day a guy who came from the 777 to the bus went over an hour into discretion out of dubai, after he resigned being the head of recruiting, thanks mate

Don't Cathay, Qantas, Air NZ, Singapore Airlines etc etc etc do long haul with one captain and 2 FO's. Do their Captains never rest then?

I suspect their crew rest is just outside the cockpit - not 50m away and under the floor.

baps

When I was in SQ most long haul flights to Europe had 2 Captains and two F/O's and the same for across the Pacific.

Depending on time of year and winds one sometimes on a return sector from Europe or outward over the Pacific had the other Captain on board positioning. F/O's in SQ were not allowed to sit in the LHS.

Positioning crews hours only counted as 50% towards the 70 hours per month before overtime kicked in.

Many a time I have sat in First Class quaffing champagne whilst the other Captain sat in his seat the whole time back from Europe or going across the Pacific. One also had the same situation happen to you the next time around of course.

Not sure whether they still operate this way today.

sandpit too right crew rest was either in the cockpit area or just outside cockpit door.

On the 777 which I was not on but positioned a few times to Seoul the Captain had a huge rest area close by which I used from time to time if I had to sit in economy which happened from time to time if full which it often was on those sectors. Real luxury that rest area and just for the Captain.

On flights with just one Captain you never got a rest like SIN/DXB or SIN/CHC/SIN

To me your post shows that you respect the F/Os in your company but not trust them which is actually disrespecting.
In your case you should never take a walk to the toilet, stretch your legs in the cabin, take your meal or close your eyes in the seat and let the FO be a PF on the sector. If you have a bunk just behind the cockpit and are in deep sleep what difference does it make where are you? Maybe the FOs should bring their training records to show the proficiency to the honorable supreme commander in chief of the flight from A to B
Do not try to put this as a justifiable reason for a blocked first class seat.
Never been on the 777/A380 crew rest area, but if it is a health or safety hazard than suing Boeing/Airbus is way more feasible.
"dire emergency"...please...

Sorry little Jet, but I disagree with you.

Try flying over the Himalayas with 2 F/O's who respond to a clearance for another aircraft and subsequently start a descent BELOW MSA! It happened, it was verifiable and thank goodness the Captain was in F Class and somehow realized that the engines were at IDLE far too long for a normal descent clearance.......... 1500nm from destination.

This topic should not be construed as being disrespectful towards F/O's because it is matter of reality at Emirates Airline. Granted, most times when I climb into the bunk at the back of the aircraft, I have full confidence in my colleagues (2 F/O's) operating the flight while I take rest. But there was one occasion when I did not take my rest so far from the cockpit because my level of trust with both '2000 hour prodigies', was not high. I'm not slagging those guys because most pilots have the same level of brilliance at 2000 hours, but quite frankly if I was a pax on that flight..... I would have assumed the Captain was in a position to ascertain his authority in the event of a mishap.

Sadly, EK does think that the 'cost-versus-reward' of such a policy is relevant, which should adequately explain why this airline has pushed things so far. EK has survived numerous brushes with DEATH, but somehow they have equated this good fortune to being smart and wise without taking into account that THIS AIRLINE is certainly the luckiest airline on the planet.

Bunks for pilots at the back of the largest passenger aircraft in the world.......is simply......... stupid and arrogant! Anyone defending Emirates point of view regarding this issue, is an idiot. No IF's, AND's or BUT's about it, AN IDIOT!!!

Emirates Airlines is THE ONLY AIRLINE (to the best of my knowledge) who demands that Airbus and Boeing change the rest areas for pilots in the design of an aircraft. It is always a commercial decision, ie to save money, with complete disregard for Flight Safety. Then add into the equation that most airlines would have 2 Captains and 2 F/O's on flights which Emirates Airline has only 3 pilots (usually only one Captain)
Shouldn't this adequately explain the mentality of the 'lunatics in charge of the asylum' here?

I figured someone would misunderstand my post. Proved my point Littlejet. I am sure I don't have to explain but I'll try again. I trust my copilots without exception. BUT, you know, the captain has the complete responsibility for what ultimately happens to the aircraft. If I am completely out of the loop by being 70 meters away from the cockpit and not able to return, there is an issue. As I stated, we have a number of f/o's here that for whatever reason (time on EK aircraft, e.g.) the company deems not ready or (don't agree but that's the facts)of taking on the responsibility of being in the left seat. But it's okay for those f/o's to make all decisions regarding the conduct of a dire emergency. Seems inconsistant to me. So again, it's not the copilots' ability that I question, but rather the fact the captain has been removed, by company policy, from a possible emergency.

But more importantly, with only one captain on the a/c, do you, as the captain, remove yourself from possible decision making by taking rest in an area where one might not be able to return? Likely not happen....but.

And of course tongue in cheek, remember to return to full uniform before returning to the cockpit, less someone in first report that fact to the company.

So captains, what is one to do? Disregard company policy about where rest taken or just be a good boy.

Cathay, Air NZ & Qantas all have crew rest inside the flight deck or just outside the flight deck door.

Ixnat,
I do not trust my FO's as far as I can throw them. That is a simple fact and a result of our recruiting policy, cadet scheme and training department.
And I'm a trainer!
A healthy level of mis-trust will see your career last a lot longer.

JF :
Yes
No
I wish.
You can't polish a turd.

MW, you can polish a turd if you rub long enough, see Mythbusters :ok:

And you wonder why..
 

Mister,
If you a trainer and you say you don't trust your FOs because the training dept (yourself?), I agree with my fellow pilot, please get out of the training department or retire. It is people like you that MM said he would get rid of. Some of the FOs here have more experience than you will ever have. You are a joke and good job on starting a bad chain of replys and bad feelings when we already have enough problems here.:=

Its not that you dont trust the FO. But there is a reason we have command training....and it an amazing development over a short time. Ask anyone who has just upgraded.
I would not rest comfortably in the bunk without being able to return to my seat in 15 secs...

STOP BICKERIN...EK is a captains airline and he or she is prob more than any other airline responsible for any probs.(of course they will both be fired if they do something terrible like a badly flown missed approach...say no more),but I understand the dilemma.A lot of EK f/o's are previous captains and a lot are not but as EK f/o's collectively we have to support the skipper as much as poss whatever our background to ensure we all walk away.Skippers also have to respect the chap in the right hand seat who may be more experienced...BUT he is ultimately responsible especially in EK.(poor bugger).
Let us stop bickering about who trusts who etc as 90% of us are experienced enough and we all want to do our job as professionals.There are always exceptions as previously mentioned "the himalaya incident' but that is exceptional.
I suppose what I am trying to say is lets put our ego's away as the collective problem is bigger than all of us and we have to REALLY work collectively as a team to fix it.

Good Flying to all.....:ok:

Good Post Seagoll
J:ok:

Yeah, good post, but it does not deal with the underlying issue.

You pointed out correctly that the skipper will take the full blow in case of a decision that upsets the dish-dashs. How on earth can he influence a urgent decision making from the hell-hole TC banned him into?

To be able to influence or not, that is the question.

Especially if you have to eventually sit in for it.

I am with the lot, I trust 95% of our FOs. But the remaining 5% are very scary, believe me, and in our system they are hard to make out.

Where does that leave me?

A question

The captain is in the bunk with the two f/o's flying over the Atlantic.Then there is a track violation. Who is held accountable by the authorities and the company?

The Captain is responsible. The guys flying will also take the rap. Standard.

Funny how all of a sudden I need 3000 hours on type to upgrade. OK , I can live with that, but your ok to sit in the left as FO on augmenting trips. What a scam.

I would imagine that the problem would disappear as quickly as it came up if a few Captains were to call in sick to the company while on layover in JFK. After calling HDQ a quick buzz to SOS in order to get a doctor to verify that said Captain does indeed suffer from any number of sympthoms that a medical professional can only diagnose from a patients description yet are serious enough to ground said patient for a number of days. Once management realise that a 777 with 350+ pax cannot take off from JFK with only 2 FOs, talented and qualified and as as they may be, I would imagine that the crewing may change.

Hi Guys:

I can see why they want to reduce the flight deck crew from 2 augments to 1, simply because they are short of crew at the moment. What bothers me is the reason/excuse they came up with. Saying stupid things such as 'because of the seasonal winds'. I guess there must be a few knots difference but this doesn't justify as a reason.

JUST BE HONEST AND SAY: HEY GUYS WE ARE SHORT OF CREW AND FOR THE TIME BEING WE HAVE TO OPEN UP SOME MANPOWER!!

This would earn a lot more respect from our crews to management instead of making some bull**** excuse!!! Which they have done in the past (utilities??)

BOTTOMLINE IS: WE ARE SIMPLY SHORT OF FLIGHT CREW!! JUST SAY SO!! NO BAD FEELINGS!! For the time I'm happy to help out as long as it doesn't stay a 1 crew augment because: JFK IS A BLOODY LONG WAY FOR A 1 CREW AUGMENT!!!!! AND NOT TO FORGET ONLY 36 HRS TO RECOVER IN JFK BEFORE HEADING BACK!!

CHEERS,

This should mean that the captain get 100% of the time logged both ways, as opposed to 100% one way and only 50% of return, which is 75% of total trip under ULR (OMA or FOM)

This would mean that the captain reach 900hours 25% quicker in the year and you will again have a shortfall of crew again.

correct me if im wrong but doesnt the PIC get 100% 3 pilots 1 capt 2 fo only 1 pic

A ULR flight has 2 captains and two F/O's. Team A and Team B.

Team A outbound captain claims 100% of the time to JFK, whilst the Team B Captain only gets 50% to JFK of the time for his logbook.

On the return flight, the rolls are reversed and Team B Captain now gets 100% of the flight time whilst Team A Captain only get 50%. The same applies to the first officers.. Now you get 100%+50% which equals to 75% of the entire journey.

Now that there is one captain and two F/O's, it could be said that the relief F/O might not be entitled to claim 100% of the flight time, but the Captain surely would, even if in the bunk. This means before, 15 hours to JFK and 7 hours back (logged time) amounts to 22 hours logged of a 29 hour flight, where as now that captain will now claim the complete 29 hours round trip.

Guys and girls. Dare I comment. If we want to change anything we first need to get the facts right and have a solid argument. Emotion never gained anything for a pilot group!
FOM, chapter 21, limits on duty. Two or more crew departing 0800-1259, 1 sector = 14hrs. Extendable by half the rest period taken, should make it about 16hrs. Same rules as, for example, an Osaka flight which can be 12hrs30mins easily mid winter on the return.
Same credit, for example, an Osaka flight. Captain and F/O 100%. Augmenting F/O 50%. Straight out of the FOM. If you want to argue the point at least get the facts correct!

All of the duty time aside.....and the same thing happens at US carriers flying 8+ hours with three crew members to Europe or somewhere. Captain goes sick...flight's done.

And to all the other carriers doing something similar....that was the premise of my original question as to where the PIC is physically located during his rest. I doubt if Qantas, KAL, Singapore et al has the PIC located some 75 mtrs with 300+ pax inbetween his designated rest area and the cockpit. If it doesn't matter, why did Boeing build the aircraft for FAA certification with the rest facility directly behind the cockpit. It would be interesting to see if any other regulating authority besides the GCAA would allow this; the PIC in the aft of the aircraft with no other PIC "qualified" on board.

"I am with the lot, I trust 95% of our FOs. But the remaining 5% are very scary, believe me, and in our system they are hard to make out."


Relax guys. I bet that even the 5% "scary" bunch would be able to hold the wings level until the boss showed up in the cockpit :E

All the stupid rules they (the desk folks) write in these FCI/FCNs are just façade. They don't follow most of them and distort the rest as they please. This is Emirates.

Anybody know if the 3 man ULR flights are time factored? That would mean that as the only Captain on board, if they factor your time in the bulk, no captain would officially be on board the A/C while you are in the bulk. Interesting hein!!! Any info on this one?

Keep Discovering:ok:

EkPILOT,

If you search the forum 4 or 5 years back you will find that this was all explained then when the 3 man JFK first started. This is not something new!!!
What happens on the PER or any other trip when 1CA and 2FOs operate?
Not agreeing with this concept of removing crew from trips, but think you need to think before posting.

Just know the rules, and if you are not legal to depart JFK don't. And don't let them decide the new departure time until your inside your hotel room and starting your rest period.

The Don

Jim,
I presume that the interpretation of that paragraph (1.1) is that when the flight time does actually drop below 14 hrs then it ceases to be ULR? It is logical I guess (from a duty period point of view). I presume therefore that the Cost Index may be raised on occasion to ensure 14 hours max flight time?

We will see!

Come on Mister the don, relax, I know the rules i did those flights back then. Can you answer my question about the factoring... that's all? Do you know what I'm talking about?

Keep Discovering:ok: