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Emirates ULR screwing!!!

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Emirates ULR screwing!!!

Old 16th Mar 2010, 13:28
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Emirates ULR screwing!!!

Well here we go, the rot is really setting in.
Just how much can EK screw their crews.

With fatigue levels on the up and poor in flight crew rest facilities how much further can they push pilots?



Boeing Colleagues

As we start into the summer schedule the flight times on the DXB-JFK-DXB flights have been modified due to the reduction in seasonal winds. This allows us to reduce the augment on selected DXB-JFK-DXB flights to free up additional manpower for assignment to other operations.

Beginning with EK 201 28th March and EK 202 29th March, the augmentation plan will revert to one Captain and two First Officers for the following flights only:



EK 201 DXB-JFK

EK 202 JFK-DXB

Last edited by puff m'call; 16th Mar 2010 at 14:05.
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 13:53
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Not new Puff - it was flown this way on the 345 2 Capts and 1 F/O summer '05 and '06 I seem to recall. Just 201, not 203..
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 14:00
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It leaves them very little room to play with and as they saw a few yrs back on the bus it didn't work. We are all knackered(tired) and it's alot easier to refuse to go into descretion on a single sector!
Wouldn't get to worried as it's going to the 380 soon, so now they get ICN and JFK on reduced crew!!
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 15:06
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Pardon my ignorance, but what is the "usual" policy? 2 captains and 2 f/o's correct?
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 17:00
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Yes 2 Capts & 2 F/O's
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 17:10
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Question for all the capts going on 201/203. Will you take your break in the CRC or will you try something else? You all know what the problems could or might be with the PIC some 70 mtrs behind the cockpit with 300+ passengers between you and the cockpit. This is not to "disrespect" any of the f/o's by any means, but you are the PIC and the final arbitor of the decision making process or at least should be. We could argue this all day long.....but here could be an abstract case or two. You, the only captain on the a/c. Both f/o's have not been allowed or failed upgrade. Things happen while you are in the CRC....the company says no problem because both f/o's are qualified etc. But then shouldn't they be allowed to upgrade. Or what if they both have only a few hundred hours on EK aircraft. By EK standards they are not qualified to upgrade, but can make all decisions during an emergency with you, the captain, unable to physically make it back to the cockpit.

I hope you are able to see what I am getting at. Ek says on one hand these guys are restricted to be able to upgrade because, blah blah. But EK has no problem allowing them to make decisions and fly the aircraft in a dire emergency situation where the PIC can't get back to the cockpit.

So captain, again, where do you take your rest knowing the restrictions we have?

Oh, BTW, it's the winds again.....
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 17:38
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Two articles from our FOM make it quite easy to stay up front, close to the cockpit, unless you want to immediatly fall illegal in an emergency. Simply because the skipper would NOT be able to comply in the torpedo tube:

The following are occasions on which the Captain is required to assume the
duties of PF irrespective of prior allocations:
During a rejected takeoff.
During certain emergency or abnormal procedures.

[the Captain has to ensure ]... that in an emergency situation that requires immediate decision and action, the Commander or the pilot to whom conduct of the flight has been delegated may deviate from rules, operational procedures and methods to take any action he considers necessary under the circumstances in the interest of safety

Interpretation is up to the individual skipper, to me though it is crystal clear: In an emergency in the torpedo tube we are illegal and would be held accountable.
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 18:02
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Can't remember how many minutes you have before going in discretion with a 3 pilot crew, but when it was AB, a captain walked off twice with the crew as he wasn't going in discretion out of DXB. Was called in the office an threatened with dismissal.
He basically told them he would sue them big time and never heard anything after that.

A man with serious cohones, and a hero ever since.
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 06:22
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I walked out twice too and never heard a damn thing, no call no email, had 20 min delay and was out of hours, NO discretion out of homebase
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 06:27
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I forgot to mention, the next day the next day a guy who came from the 777 to the bus went over an hour into discretion out of dubai, after he resigned being the head of recruiting, thanks mate
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 09:07
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Don't Cathay, Qantas, Air NZ, Singapore Airlines etc etc etc do long haul with one captain and 2 FO's. Do their Captains never rest then?
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 09:34
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I suspect their crew rest is just outside the cockpit - not 50m away and under the floor.
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 10:01
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baps

When I was in SQ most long haul flights to Europe had 2 Captains and two F/O's and the same for across the Pacific.

Depending on time of year and winds one sometimes on a return sector from Europe or outward over the Pacific had the other Captain on board positioning. F/O's in SQ were not allowed to sit in the LHS.

Positioning crews hours only counted as 50% towards the 70 hours per month before overtime kicked in.

Many a time I have sat in First Class quaffing champagne whilst the other Captain sat in his seat the whole time back from Europe or going across the Pacific. One also had the same situation happen to you the next time around of course.

Not sure whether they still operate this way today.

sandpit too right crew rest was either in the cockpit area or just outside cockpit door.

On the 777 which I was not on but positioned a few times to Seoul the Captain had a huge rest area close by which I used from time to time if I had to sit in economy which happened from time to time if full which it often was on those sectors. Real luxury that rest area and just for the Captain.

On flights with just one Captain you never got a rest like SIN/DXB or SIN/CHC/SIN
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 11:42
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This is not to "disrespect" any of the f/o's by any means, but you are the PIC and the final arbitor of the decision making process or at least should be. We could argue this all day long.....but here could be an abstract case or two. You, the only captain on the a/c. Both f/o's have not been allowed or failed upgrade. Things happen while you are in the CRC....the company says no problem because both f/o's are qualified etc. But then shouldn't they be allowed to upgrade. Or what if they both have only a few hundred hours on EK aircraft. By EK standards they are not qualified to upgrade, but can make all decisions during an emergency with you, the captain, unable to physically make it back to the cockpit.
To me your post shows that you respect the F/Os in your company but not trust them which is actually disrespecting.
In your case you should never take a walk to the toilet, stretch your legs in the cabin, take your meal or close your eyes in the seat and let the FO be a PF on the sector. If you have a bunk just behind the cockpit and are in deep sleep what difference does it make where are you? Maybe the FOs should bring their training records to show the proficiency to the honorable supreme commander in chief of the flight from A to B
Do not try to put this as a justifiable reason for a blocked first class seat.
Never been on the 777/A380 crew rest area, but if it is a health or safety hazard than suing Boeing/Airbus is way more feasible.
"dire emergency"...please...

Last edited by littlejet; 17th Mar 2010 at 11:57.
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 12:33
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Sorry little Jet, but I disagree with you.

Try flying over the Himalayas with 2 F/O's who respond to a clearance for another aircraft and subsequently start a descent BELOW MSA! It happened, it was verifiable and thank goodness the Captain was in F Class and somehow realized that the engines were at IDLE far too long for a normal descent clearance.......... 1500nm from destination.

This topic should not be construed as being disrespectful towards F/O's because it is matter of reality at Emirates Airline. Granted, most times when I climb into the bunk at the back of the aircraft, I have full confidence in my colleagues (2 F/O's) operating the flight while I take rest. But there was one occasion when I did not take my rest so far from the cockpit because my level of trust with both '2000 hour prodigies', was not high. I'm not slagging those guys because most pilots have the same level of brilliance at 2000 hours, but quite frankly if I was a pax on that flight..... I would have assumed the Captain was in a position to ascertain his authority in the event of a mishap.

Sadly, EK does think that the 'cost-versus-reward' of such a policy is relevant, which should adequately explain why this airline has pushed things so far. EK has survived numerous brushes with DEATH, but somehow they have equated this good fortune to being smart and wise without taking into account that THIS AIRLINE is certainly the luckiest airline on the planet.

Bunks for pilots at the back of the largest passenger aircraft in the world.......is simply......... stupid and arrogant! Anyone defending Emirates point of view regarding this issue, is an idiot. No IF's, AND's or BUT's about it, AN IDIOT!!!

Emirates Airlines is THE ONLY AIRLINE (to the best of my knowledge) who demands that Airbus and Boeing change the rest areas for pilots in the design of an aircraft. It is always a commercial decision, ie to save money, with complete disregard for Flight Safety. Then add into the equation that most airlines would have 2 Captains and 2 F/O's on flights which Emirates Airline has only 3 pilots (usually only one Captain)
Shouldn't this adequately explain the mentality of the 'lunatics in charge of the asylum' here?
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 12:49
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I figured someone would misunderstand my post. Proved my point Littlejet. I am sure I don't have to explain but I'll try again. I trust my copilots without exception. BUT, you know, the captain has the complete responsibility for what ultimately happens to the aircraft. If I am completely out of the loop by being 70 meters away from the cockpit and not able to return, there is an issue. As I stated, we have a number of f/o's here that for whatever reason (time on EK aircraft, e.g.) the company deems not ready or (don't agree but that's the facts)of taking on the responsibility of being in the left seat. But it's okay for those f/o's to make all decisions regarding the conduct of a dire emergency. Seems inconsistant to me. So again, it's not the copilots' ability that I question, but rather the fact the captain has been removed, by company policy, from a possible emergency.

But more importantly, with only one captain on the a/c, do you, as the captain, remove yourself from possible decision making by taking rest in an area where one might not be able to return? Likely not happen....but.

And of course tongue in cheek, remember to return to full uniform before returning to the cockpit, less someone in first report that fact to the company.

So captains, what is one to do? Disregard company policy about where rest taken or just be a good boy.
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 14:50
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Don't Cathay, Qantas, Air NZ, Singapore Airlines etc etc etc do long haul with one captain and 2 FO's. Do their Captains never rest then?
Cathay, Air NZ & Qantas all have crew rest inside the flight deck or just outside the flight deck door.
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 15:23
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Ixnat,
I do not trust my FO's as far as I can throw them. That is a simple fact and a result of our recruiting policy, cadet scheme and training department.
And I'm a trainer!
A healthy level of mis-trust will see your career last a lot longer.
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 15:56
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JF :
Yes
No
I wish.
You can't polish a turd.
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 18:54
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MW, you can polish a turd if you rub long enough, see Mythbusters
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