ManaDubai,
As you are obviously a management type and as you are endeavoring to at least post on here in a coherent manner, I will try to reply likewise:

As others have pointed out, the general mood of the pilots at Emirates as evidenced here has not come out of thin air but is the result of a number of actions taken by the company. I would very much like you to respond to these particular points if you can.
1. Mine and other contracts specifically says that Emirates will pay my water and electric bills. It does not say that it will only pay part or up to a certain amount. This is in my contract. Where I come from, to do otherwise is termed a "breach of contract" and is illegal. To add insult to injury, we were not told that this was because time were tough and that we all had to tighten our belts. No, this was for the environment.

2. Mine and other contracts specifically state that I am entitled to 42 days of leave a year yet I have been told that I am really "only entitled to 30 days." Again, that little old thing called a contract comes to mind.

3. When pilots interviewed here, they were shown a certain standard of accommodation and assured that the policy was for a married pilot with children would be provided with a villa. When they showed up, some with as many as 4-5 children were given small 2 bedroom apartments as temporary accommodation. I guess the term temporary is relative as for some it stretched beyond 2 years. Contractual? Perhaps not but where I come from it's called bait and switch and generally refers to the actions of those known as con men and thieves.

4. When those same pilots interviewed here (when the company was fairly desperate for pilots), they were given the criteria for advancement. Many based their decision to move their families thousands of miles away from home on those criteria. When it suited the company, those same criteria were changed, severely disadvantaging the future earning potential of those pilots and their families. Again, contractual - no but the word sleazy comes to mind.

5. Finally for now, lets talk about fatigue. There is not a reputable airline in the world that is flying their pilots the amount of hours and across the numbers of time zones that Emirates is. 94 hours average and most of the line pilots I know are routinely flying trips to the U.S. and Australia in the same month. Now, you don't appear to be a pilot so I'll make this simple for you. You would be wiped out flying as a passenger that much through that many time zones, yet we are required to work to some of the most arcane and unrealistic rules in this or any other industry. Now as you say, a better forum would be for us to take our concerns to our managers. Many of us have tried that and have been rebuffed at every turn. The last time I saw someone bring it up, our fearless leader launched into a speech about us being at the forefront of fatigue management and that other airlines were following our lead. Let's think about this for a second - he didn't even say there was no fatigue, just that we were "managing it". A medical definition of fatigue is:
Definition
Fatigue is physical and/or mental exhaustion that can be triggered by stress, medication, overwork, or mental and physical illness or disease.
Description
Everyone experiences fatigue occasionally. It is the body's way of signaling its need for rest and sleep. But when fatigue becomes a persistent feeling of tiredness or exhaustion that goes beyond normal sleepiness, it is usually a sign that something more serious is amiss.
Physically, fatigue is characterized by a profound lack of energy, feelings of muscle weakness, and slowed movements or central nervous system reactions. Fatigue can also trigger serious mental exhaustion. Persistent fatigue can cause a lack of mental clarity (or feeling of mental "fuzziness"), difficulty concentrating, and in some cases, memory loss.

This is what we are managing. To be clear, to be fatigued is to be impaired. Do you want your flight crew to be impaired when something goes wrong, or when the weather is poor? This issue has been brought to this company's attention numerous times yet has been completely and utterly ignored.

I could go on but I would really like to see your responses to these 5 points. I won't even go into the fact that the company holds the passports of employees below a certain grade, in violation of UAE law. (Oh, I guess I just did).

The reason that the company is having a difficult time recruiting and retaining pilots is because of their actions. If you or I behaved in the ways described, we would be known as someone who does not keep their word and who is not to be trusted. That is the crux of Emirates problem and why you read the types of contributions that you have bemoaned.

Read Mana's last post very closely. He/she is either working daily in EGHQ, has worked there or dearly wants to be. His buzz words, his sentences are clearly those of a management prince.

Now he may be getting quite a chuckle out of all this, seeing how many are being wound up. His musings are definitely Management 101. He doesn't speak of the realities of flying the line at 95 hours and what it does to family life here. As I have said numerous times before, this is all from an airline that has not lost one red dirham in the course of operations.

Let's look at some realities.....if this airline is in such dire straights as Mana suggests. Perhaps some non cost items to blunt the pain. Jumpseat comes to mind. What's the cost to management other than control. Why originally were we told we could not have more than 4 days off in a row (now 7)? What does it matter if the hours and work is being flown? Why just one ALT a year for relatively new employees...cost to the company? Negligible.

Profit for shareholders? Well yes, but who are the shareholders. And Mana since you are so subscribed to being part of some management somewhere, take a look through the Jan-Feb Harvard Business review www.hbr.org and look for an article on how companies have failed by adhereing to that strategy. Companies who look to treat customers and employees as there main thrust have faired way better than those that adhere to the shareholder (re. Jack Welch) is king theory.

Your youth and wannabe attitude shows through with your manifesto straight from the handbook. But we will forgive you when you have been hosed by management after management, saying the same things over and over again around the world. Difference here, ZERO RECOURSE.

Put things back as they were as short as two years ago with perhaps a few changes for the company and you will find a pilot group falling all over themselves to be proud and assist this company in any way they can. Who benefits? Customers, employees and guess what "shareholders". Leave things as they are, planes will be parked because crews run out of time and can't continue at a 90+ hour months, interview sessions will continue to lack participants, and families will continue to suffer as the bread winner of the household is absent either in body or mind for most of the month. It is not the fault of the pilots that the above is happening and it's not the fault of the postings here. So whose fault is it that these attitudes have evolved over a very short period of time. Is EK the worst of the lot, by no means. Doesn't make it right. Could it be the best.....IMHO it has been and could be again. But not on the course you prescribe.

Mana

Nobody that I have spoken to wants Emirates to do badly. All of our financial futures, while we remain in Dubai, are tied to the company's success so please quit looking for the easy excuse in the a few bad apples. I can also tell you that in the 25 years that I have worked in this industry I have never been treated with such disrespect. To say "if you don't like it, leave", is to close your eyes to the enormous professional commitment that every pilot in this company has made when they move to Dubai.

Quoting UAE Labour Law is a VERY slippery slope. There are many work conditions that are stipulated that Emirates does not comply with like to overtime pay and working at night to name a few. You cannot apply some of the rules and then expect to be exempt from others. You should be versed on all of it before you start quoting any of it. Air Arabia doesn't pay extra for night flying because they're nice guys but because they are following UAE Labour Law....!!

As far as what's being said on this forum being inaccurate and untrue, I think you are being selective yet again. Would the same be said of the continuous positive comments that were found on his very forum between 4-10 years ago. This site and the pilots who posted here have not vanished so something else must have certainly changed.

I would suggest that all the management who have an interest and an ablility to return Emirates to its former level of respect in the airline community take a long inward look at the scorched earth policies of the last number of years and address the real and present problems that exist within OUR company. Morale may not present a flight safety risk as stated by the HORSE but it does cause long term damage to the employer-employee relationship. Time to put away your egos and stop worrying about saving face. We are all waiting for some positive leadership instead of more threats and intimidation. I would also submit that your window of opportunity is closing very quickly and the time to act is before the world economy goes into full recovery because if these conditions remain wen it does there will be alot of unfilled airplanes baking on the ramp and you will only have yourselves to blame.

I once again find it astonishing that when an individual speaks out opinions that aren’t shared by the majority on this forum the answer from most of you is angry and irrational responses.

As you put it yourself you are highly educated and intelligent people. Then you should also be able to discuss your disagreements in an educated and intelligent way.

I do understand that the utilities cap is inconvenient for those few of you who have a consumption that is above the new limit. This does however not mean that it is a breach of your contract. Your contract states that "The Company will pay rent, tax, all relevant cooking gas, electricity and water charges". From a legal point of view relevant refers to normal consumption in the accommodation you are placed, and excessive luxury use is not covered by the contract. With the new cap EK has only formalized what was in the contract all the time, that only relevant consumption is covered. This view is shared by UAE lawyers and as a result not a contract breach.

Most of you were hired to EK when the world economy was booming, and Dubai was one of the hotspots on the globe. While Dubai's future still looks bright, there is no doubt in the fact that Dubai has severe challenges that needs to be overcome. It’s of course unfortunate that some employees feel that they haven't got everything they thought they would when signing up for the company. EK try its best to live up to everyone’s high expectations, but in the business climate that has existed the last years that has been and still is difficult at times. As you have stated yourself these complaints is not a breach of contract, and therefore not something that you can hold EK accountable.

As stated earlier EK understands that it needs to recruit more staff to create more flexibility and ensure further growth, and is as a result of this currently hiring new pilots, cabin crew and so on. EKs management is aware of that the current backup is thin and is taking measures to improve. It is every EK employee’s job and duty to do our best effort to ensure that the A/C is on route. EK is in the business of moving people, and if we cannot do that in a good and flawless manner we will no longer have a business to work at, much less talk negative about in internet forums. Your poor attitude and apparent unwillingness to help the company through a difficult time will not make things better.

EK is in their recruitment work not trying to oversell what we can offer, and wants to create a realistic image of how life at EK will be. Every day EK receives new highly qualified applications for different positions from all over the world which shows that what EK can offer is good enough and competitive enough to attract the new staff required to overcome current challenges and ensure further growth. EK is not heaven, but it’s certainly not hell either, and I think it’s sad that so many of you have such lack of respect for your own company and colleagues that you want to drag it into the mud through this forum.

Good on you Mana,

EK is at the brink, I believe Uncle Maurice has said we will only make $1billion this year. How will we cope.:ugh:

I do hope all the pilots and other employees that have to dish out money to pay for their DEWA bill will be noted in the final financial report 2009/2010.

Our min block hour pay, our reserve pay, our AD pay, our SIM pay, our pay for leave days were all removed because the new big cheese thought we were having too many days off, and started rostering AD instead of days off. Funny thing was we had already flown max hours and could not be used, so these extra AD turned into 3.5hrs extra over time. Well who would have guessed after several months of this, the grand poobah would discover that his great idea was costing the company money!!!! Easily fixed by the 15% pay neutral pay cut. Pilots were the only group in the company to take a pay cut then, Dec 2003. Just we were the only group that took a pay cut in 2009. So feel proud to be part of that elite group.

Luckily the flight ops management stood up for the pilot group....oh wait there, no they didn't. Just as they have never stood up for the pilot group at any time in the past decade. When you listen to TCAS waste people's time at pilot wash up meetings declaring to one and all that all the bad decisions are made by someone far higher than himself, you wonder why he is still on the payroll, as he seems to do nothing. I have been to wash ups when ED talks, but have no clue what he was trying to say, but feel proud that EK was an equal opportunity employer (anyone remember the story about using NBO as the alternate for JNB? Once again ED proving what a well traveled and smart fella he is!!!).

You reap what you sow. Or so middle to upper middle managers (known fondly as muppets) are discovering at the moment. But its not of course their fault, but rather the fault of anyone who dares say what happens on PPRUNE. Just imagine what would happen if VOIP became legal!!!!

The Don

Mana, we really appreciate your posting here. Seriously, how else would we know what the talking points are for management? And son, you just don't get it. And that's the problem in a nut shell, nobody seems to get it.

Let's rehash a few incidents over the last year, and please explain to us not so fortunate to have your insight into the perspective of EGHQ. How did firing a TRI (that's a training pilot) and a pilot UNDER training for making an honest mistake, not causing ANY problems from their mistake, conducive to pilot trusting of management. Along those lines, the same goes for firing a pilot for taking a picture of his crew (PR pix done all the time) outside of the aircraft. Old news I know, but still sits there like a five day rotten egg. How about the decision to limit our days off, no matter how many hours we fly. What has that got to do with the company's ability to make profits? Please explain that to us novice managers.

Want to talk law? Any court of law (maybe not around here) deems past practices as contractual. As you so rightly state, relevant usage. Please, my friend, define relevant. What is relevant for one villa is not for another, given age, building quality etc. But remember, it was not to save the company money, it was to help the enviornment. What about those in flats? I guess their usage doesn't harm the enviornment.

Others have spoken about fatigue. As you may or may not know, we are supposed to NOT fly when fatigued. We are to say, I'm too tired/fatigued to operate this flight to my utmost ability. Want to guess how many flights would take off if we adhered to that verbatim? Want to guess how long that pilot will have a job if he did that down route and there was not alternatives for the passengers or no alternative to find another pilot?

Finally, it has all been said before and before. But you have not addressed ONE issue that has been brought to your attention other than your silly reference to "relevant" charges for utilities. And explain to me how this is not a breach of our contracts......opting out of accommodations to rent and getting paid an allowance. GONE. Sure it helps the company but it was contractual. No "relevant" clause in that one.

So instead of your Management 101 talking points, why not engage in a dialogue about the firings, the fatigue, the contractual breaches etc. We don't want you to disappear, but you seem to have a management mindset and I guess we just need to "get it". Certainly you don't.

Just rereading your post you say that the offerings at EK are "good enough" to attract new recruits. Any and every company can attract new recruits because new joiners come to any coorporation to improve their lot in life. But one key to a great company is how to retain the people that have built the company. So why, my friend, are we short staffed in many departments, especially pilots? Are those in charge so inept that they, one, don't know how to retain personnel, or two, they could not see the shortage coming? Or do they not care about retaining good personnel since most are not UAE nationals. EK does an unbelievable PR job to the general public (and to you obviously), but the pilot ranks are slowly thinning and "recruits" are not there as they once were. Ask yourself, my friend, why? Please, since you have a knack for managementspeak, address some of these and other postings from above so we mere minions can understand.:D

In my opinion threre are a lot of Companies in Arabia interested in creating this kind of bad atmosphere...

It´s a pity.

Good luck:)

Whilst you may see yourself as the lone voice speaking out against the howling mob, this really isn't the case. Just dismissing all other arguments as "angry and irrational" in fact merely shows how little attention you've actually paid to the thoughtful responses (well, some of them) posted.

Quit the patronizing tone. NOW. And pull you socks up and tuck your shirt in while you're at it.

Congratulations, you've just highlighted the contradiction. Well done.

And I can find 1000 lawyers willing to argue that facetious point with you. "Normal" is the word your point hinges on, which is sadly not in the contract signed. The word "ALL" is the word you need to focus on. "ALL" means everything, the lot, the whole shebang, the entirety AND the horse it rode in on. If this comple legalese is too difficult for you to comprehend, my 6 year old son can easily explain to you the difference between "normal" and "all".

IRRELEVANT. A contract in the civilized world is not up to negotiation just because the management screwed the pooch. Yup, the whole world, and DXB in particular got hit by the recession, but honestly, that aint our problem bud. If morale was higher, or employees were compelled to feel an ounce of compassion or loyalty for their company, you'd be amazed the sacrifices they'd have been willing to make. Sadly, EK management has literally NO understanding of the term loyalty do they.

cough, choke, hack.

umm, no. Ek directly breached the contract and is directly accountable.

Good. Do something about it. You are failing in your job, and have been for some time. Improve your performance or resign. Now. for the good of the company you feel so strongly about.

Good call. Why are you trying to run this company on a shoe string and use pilots to the point of illegality then? Such shoddy management will surely result in grounded planes as you have no room for any flexibility.

so maybe you need to sort your ideas out.

Wake up. As said repeatedly, this negative talk on internet forums is a symptom, not a cause. Get that through your skull, and work out that you have much bigger problems than an anonymous internet forum to worry about. Guys bitching on here will get shouted down if they are full of crap or whining about nothing. When they are voicing the consensus of damn near everyone on the line and actually sitting in the sharp end of your moneymakers, you ought to realize that maybe you need to be looking at what has caused this. Stop being so nearsighted.

Please review this statement with anyone who has joined in the last two years. Then review the deteriorating conditions and ask yourself if recruitment have been good enough to encapsulate this into their pitch.

So what are you whining about then? You're getting enough suitable applicants or not?

Sigh. You don't get it do you. Ek isn't being dragged through the mud here, the levels of mud are merely being reported on.

Sort out the level of mud, and we'll get back to you.

Hi!

From what I can discern, EK is in a precarious pilot manning situation, due to the fact that:
1-New airplanes are coming
2-Pilots are leaving
3-EK is having difficulty hiring enough pilots to replace the leavers AND fill the new cockpits

EK has been lowing the minimum standards they put in place when hiring started in Fall, 2009.

To fix the pilot manning situation, I believe that EK will have to continually lower their minimum standards, AND they will have to IMPROVE the T&Cs of the existing pilot work force.

Conditions in the US, which is what of the main drivers of how successful EK wll be in fixing their pilot manning, due to the fact that the US has the most number of excess pilots that can fly as expats, are improving for pilots.

Increased Hiring Now:
In the US, many regionals will be hiring this year, as will many of the larger-aircraft operators. This trend will accelerate past 2012.

New Regulations Will Require More Hiring:
Additionally, the US Congress is forcing the FAA to improve Flight/Duty/Rest regulations, to make them similar to the British CAA system. This will require hiring of more pilots (or recalling of furloughees) to fill the current flight schedule, by virtually ALL US airlines. Congress is also looking at a bill, with a good chance of becoming law, that will force ALL Part 121 (normal commercial airlines, like Delta and UPS) airlines to hire pilots WITH A FULL ATP. That is correct. A brand new FO, if/when the law passes, will need a FULL ATP to even apply at ANY US airline.

New Pilot Candidate Declines:
Since about 2000, here in the US, EVERY year the number of new Student Pilots, Commercial Pilots, and ATPs has gone DOWN. EVERY YEAR, for the past 10 years, and the trend has been accelerating. When Dec, 2012 hits, when pilots in the US will once again have to retire because of their age (65), there will be a firestorm of hiring required to fill new seats, fill retired guy's slots, and a MASSIVE SHORTAGE of new-hire candidates.

If EK does not improve T&Cs as fast as they possibly can, they will be caught in a negative feedback cycle, and they will be in very big trouble.

I encourage EK management to improve the T&Cs as fast as practical.

Good luck and I hope it works out well for EK over the next 5 years!

cliff
NBO

Mana: The lack of respect is mutual and not being enhance one iota by you.

It was the company that broke off any dialogue with the pilots many years ago shortly after the AAR 'review' debacle. Even the 'pilots conferences' (which turned out to be The TCAS & Ed Show) failed to address any issues and only served to reinforce the impression that we are to be controlled by those we hold in contempt and not supported by them. By this exclusion you have increased the distance between the pilots and management which will be much harder to bridge if not impossible. If Pprune is your only recourse to have any discussion with your own pilots then you should be ashamed.

Looking forward to your next set of posts when you get into the office which should be in half an hour or so. Don't forget your Costa's first of course... I'll be preparing to follow a magenta line for 8+ hours or so (not even half way through a 90+ month) and will be doing my best to stay awake.

Disengagement
 

Management is made up of managing as well as leadership.::ok:
We have managers who may well be doing a good job of managing(saving the company money), however without any regard for leadership they will never be a good manager.:ugh:
We are in trouble as leadership also requires a backbone!!:eek:

DN

Hi Mana,
Welcome to PPRUNE! I most say that I have reallly enjoyed reading your posts. They are colourful and informative of the "management" culture in EK.
I think that, single handedly, you have done more to discourage pilots coming than any pilot-written post here. Congratulations. :ugh:
You have confirmed that EK doesn't honour contracts, whether they are in relation to utilities, pay, hours etc. That FATIGUE is a massive problem. That things are not so good in Dubai. And, most importantly, that comments on PPRUNE are seriously hitting EK recruitment. EK have had 4000 staff LEAVE since Jan 2009.
But we are now recruiting. Get real ya Habibi! :D
For anyone thinking of EK, please read Mana's excellent posts. Working on the 80/20 Rule, assume 80% of what is written here about EK is true.
Finally, Mana, please don't forget to ask Uncle Maurice for your Nujoom (Star) award. You have done a great service for EK. :ok:

Quote:

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I once again find it astonishing that when an individual speaks out opinions that aren’t shared by the majority on this forum the answer from most of you is angry and irrational responses.

As you put it yourself you are highly educated and intelligent people. Then you should also be able to discuss your disagreements in an educated and intelligent way.

---

Irrational responses? On the contrary, I think that any open minded person reading this will see that the responses to your posts have been for the most part rational and substantive. I think that they will also see that when asked to respond to particular issues, you are selective and incomplete.

Quote:

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I do understand that the utilities cap is inconvenient for those few of you who have a consumption that is above the new limit. This does however not mean that it is a breach of your contract. Your contract states that "The Company will pay rent, tax, all relevant cooking gas, electricity and water charges". From a legal point of view relevant refers to normal consumption in the accommodation you are placed, and excessive luxury use is not covered by the contract. With the new cap EK has only formalized what was in the contract all the time, that only relevant consumption is covered. This view is shared by UAE lawyers and as a result not a contract breach.

---

If you check your dictionary, relevant does not equate to normal and for your information, the contract does not say either. It says that the company will meet the cost of utilities. I have no doubt that the company would prevail in a UAE court of law. One only has to look down the road to see a very well publicized example of how the law is not applied evenly here.

Quote:

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Most of you were hired to EK when the world economy was booming, and Dubai was one of the hotspots on the globe. While Dubai's future still looks bright, there is no doubt in the fact that Dubai has severe challenges that needs to be overcome. It’s of course unfortunate that some employees feel that they haven't got everything they thought they would when signing up for the company. EK try its best to live up to everyone’s high expectations, but in the business climate that has existed the last years that has been and still is difficult at times. As you have stated yourself these complaints is not a breach of contract, and therefore not something that you can hold EK accountable.

---

As I am expected to live up to my word and as my reputation relies on it, so does Emirates reputation lie on them living up to their word. I don't think that anyone here will deny that things have changed in the airline world but the way the company went about instituting their changes leaves a lot to be desired. We were not told that the changes were due to the need for everyone to pitch in and help out. That might have been mistaken for leadership. We were told that we were all flying long haul (not true) and that a 20% increase in the overtime threshold was "reasonable". What it was was a 15% paycut for most pilots, something that we were told the rest of the company did not have.

Quote:

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As stated earlier EK understands that it needs to recruit more staff to create more flexibility and ensure further growth, and is as a result of this currently hiring new pilots, cabin crew and so on. EKs management is aware of that the current backup is thin and is taking measures to improve. It is every EK employee’s job and duty to do our best effort to ensure that the A/C is on route. EK is in the business of moving people, and if we cannot do that in a good and flawless manner we will no longer have a business to work at, much less talk negative about in internet forums. Your poor attitude and apparent unwillingness to help the company through a difficult time will not make things better.

---

EK is only recruiting staff to maintain the current work levels and hence the fatigue levels for expansion. We have been told that average block hours per month and overtime thresholds will remain. I think that you would find that this is a very professional pilot group and that the failings of the operation are due to the failures of the management and their policies rather than of the pilots at the coal face. The upper management of EK flight ops have never flown here and in some cases have never flown in this type of operation. They have very little idea of what our operation and its inherent difficulties actually entail. You have admonished us for not taking our issues to management. That is exactly what this is all about. We have and they do not, nor do they care to listen.

Quote:

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EK is in their recruitment work not trying to oversell what we can offer, and wants to create a realistic image of how life at EK will be. Every day EK receives new highly qualified applications for different positions from all over the world which shows that what EK can offer is good enough and competitive enough to attract the new staff required to overcome current challenges and ensure further growth. EK is not heaven, but it’s certainly not hell either, and I think it’s sad that so many of you have such lack of respect for your own company and colleagues that you want to drag it into the mud through this forum.

---

I would much rather deal directly with a company that was interested in what I had to say but alas, that is not the case. You reap what you sow. Now I have responded to each and every one of your points. I would like you to address a few of the points made here that so far you have remained silent on:

1. How can the company justify the current levels of fatigue when there is so much evidence that the pilots themselves are finding them unworkable? What do you have to say to the families that are shouldering a lot of the burden of those fatigue levels?

2. What about the pilot who was fired while under training? An open and just safety culture?

3. What do you have to say to those pilots and their families who were stuffed into 2 bedroom apartments for over 2 years? What do you have to say to the pilots considering joining here who do not want to subject their families to the same?

The most interesting thread in years, and I hope Mana will continue his dialogue.

Mana,

EK is at the point that management feels compelled enough to damage control and post on an internet forum. Very telling situation isn't it? This fact alone should be extremely worrying and as mentioned before is an effect not a cause of the poor morale within EK.

If an individual has a 50-60k yearly drm DEWA bill, perhaps it would be best to isolate the issue not brushstroke the entire villa community and unilaterally alter a contract. When isolated incidences occur don't you think they should be treated as such? This applies to shoot from the hip FCIs, FCNs, SOP's and a plethora of other reactionary changes over the recent years. Take some time to digest the situation and why it happened and how it can be reasonably rectified for a win-win solution.

Cost cutting contract adjustments and productivity increases have been made to the complete disregard for the safety and health of the pilot group. Fatigue is a very serious issue and rosters are stretched to the absolute maximum. The time zone changes, day and night operations and challenges to some of our destinations are not fully appreciated or considered. Just keep your head down, you are lucky to have a job we are told. Good for morale??

The company is disjointed from many outside managers with the job of cost cutting and internal savings. There is very little cohesion or an open door policy of any kind. Come and talk to your manager? You must be joking. It is a very dragonian management style and here we are trying to vent our frustrations. Believe it Mana, this is a fact. It might not seem like it from your office, but look at these posts. It's not idle complaints and bored pilots with nothing better to do. There has been a paradigm shift in the last 5 years and EK is a money making machine, not so much a proud employer of highly motivated and happy employees. Can you imagine the profits if that were the case? One of the frustrating facts is that the foundations are there to make EK a great place to work. However, we are treated and FEEL like a neccessary evil. So just a few suggestions:

Respect our contract and conditions of service, more open and honest dialogue, read the last one again, honor internal transfers by seniority, hire more pilots for greater flexibility and lower the bid window, implement a true non-punitive safety culture, reward us when we sacrifice with pay increases, give us more positive feedback and search for ways of improving morale. It IS important.

Most pilots are willing to help and have done so in great numbers in the past but pay us over a reasonable threshold, not 92 hours. Most pilots have a very professional attitude, give EK their best and want this company to succeed, but you can't keep eroding our working conditions and take advantage of us without an eventual backlash. You have it before you.

But you say we must do this to protect the companies interests and profitability...yes, but to what end Mana? Where does the cost cutting and increase in productivity end? On the very backs of your hard working employees, EK will announce outstanding profits at year end in a couple months. I sincerely hope the pilot group will be compensated for our contributions.

This is not a pprune rogue group of negative pilots spouting off - this is honest feedback and the true realities from your hard working line pilots. EK is in the business of moving people, but it is also in the business of PEOPLE and PEOPLE, not airplanes , is it's most important commodity. I suggest EK start to remember this and quickly.

Hi Mana,

Haven't seen a reply from you yet. Do make sure you get your draft reply approved quickly from upstairs. It just wouldn't do to be "off message"

Please answer a question for me? An Airbus Captain, in his uniform, going to work for a rostered flight, gets arrested for.....absconding :eek: Poor man spent the night in jail for NOTHING. :mad:

EK did nothing to help him or his family. Why?

I am sure that there are many people, both EK staff, and potential joiners who would like to know the truth.

Please enlighten us?

Mana, let me tell you something. The best thing about EK is the people. If the (mis) management of this potentially amazing company actually listened to and engaged with the staff positively, can you imagine the profits that could be made. :D

Look forward to your next post. :ok:

Nothing New Under the Sun.
 

Some quotes from another PPRuNe thread ... dated Feb/March 2004The whole thread is here:

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/12...t-meeting.html

As I recollect two of the 'voices' from the floor lost their '03/'04 profit share for speaking their minds at that 'lazy pilots' meeting.

ek
 

Guys can i ask you how many people got fired during the training,and why?

Mana...your pathetic stubborn attitude and these :mad: repetitive talking points is exactely what made me leave this circus....keep up the good work!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

@Mana,

stop waisting your energy in doing ridiculous politics here on pprune...

Go back in your office and use your new won insider view (by reading pprune) to change this company in a better one again.

Soon you will find out, that these threat's against EK will turn into threats pro EK and all of a sudden (for you, i guess, a big surprise) people will love to work here again.....

Can i just ask you MANA, which fleet are you on?


Because as we all know, you are clearly a Management guy..... LOST THE CONNECTION to the base....

NOT KNOWING WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT :ugh::ugh:

Saltaires Post
 

I dont have much to add but I particularly liked Saltaire's post.

Well reasoned tone and style. Pity he is not in management?

Is 'mana' short for mana gement? Or did I miss that earlier?

Once pilots work out that they get paid the same for zero hours as doing 92 the wheels will come off even more - AKA sick levels and stuff like that.

Just watched the ABC doco on DXB - pretty much reflects the place completely.

The good times are gone ... well unless you are a convicted felon who is designing clothes for the boss in Abu Dhabi ( Jamaican dude called Khan... but was that the emperor's new clothes I hear you ask!!!)

over and out!

lol

WJA

MANA

Your continued silence on this thread means you are either in a different hemisphere and a few time zones displaced :sad:and your layover hotel doesn't have free internet on the contract, or my misinformed friend you don't have the code for the cockpit door because you are not allowed in anyway:=.

All the best !

Reebs.320

Everyone here knows I am not as negative as most to EK, to the point of raising some of the more vocal critics ire, and am always willing to point out when any of the negative stuff is simply crap or at least exageration.

It's from that stand-point that I feel justified in saying- Mana, shut the hell up.

Countering pure hysterical crap like sheikmyarse puts out is one thing. Putting up totaly blinkered, one sided propoganga is not only ridiculous, it achieves the opposite to what you are intending.

There have been serious changes to EK pilots pay and conditions, and they have been almost entirely negative. I understand that they have been in response to tough ecconomic times, but there has not been one iota of willingness shown to move things back in the right direction as things improve.

Fatigue and moral are MAJOR issues, and the current recruitment is far to late to avoid a dangerous period while eveyone flys hard with lots of newbees around.

What has been most distressing to me has been the fact that, coupled with a reduction in renumeration,there has been a totally counter-productive attitude of fire first and ask questions later.

The treatment of the Manchester crew was down-right immoral. Even in the case Accra crew, the company tried to spout some form of victroy for justice when the guys were fired, but managed to get there jobs back when it came to be recognised they'd done nothing wrong!!

Really, an attitude of "Help us through difficult times, we'll appreciate it, help where we can, and reward you when things pick up" would have gone a LONG way to stopping people WANTING to post negative stuff on PPRUNE. "Like it or leave" doesn't.

I want EK to succeed and prosper, yes for my own selfish reasons but also for the good of everyone else who works here.

Head-in-sand about the problems the company is making for itself does not achieve this.

MANA

I have to agree with Wizofoz.

We all knew that the recession was going to impact EK. We are not naive. The company should have approached the pilots and asked them to make some sacrifices for a year with a review every six months thereafter. Most guys would have willingly obliged and also would have probably gone out of their way to help. However, the company used the recession as an excuse to adjust all t&c's in their favor and also to treat the pilots with utter disdain and disrespect. This is the reason why guys are upset.

This thread makes me chuckle.
Firstly, because it truely shows how desperatley the EK pilot group desires to communicate with it's management, that they are willing to try to communicate with someone who gives the impression that they could be in the management camp!
Secondly, that there is a belief by some that this would help in fixing any of the problems confronting the pilot group!

It's simply not the way things are dealt with here. EK management is a multi-level dictatorship, with each level of management dictating to those below them, while refusing to listen to anything that doesn't fit their view of the world from those below them.

I said it makes me chuckle but in hind sight it's actually very sad!!!:(

Mana
You have to understand that once Pilot morale is down it stays down. In the big scheme of things if all other subjects were fine then the average pilot discontented or otherwise wouldn't give a monkeys nuts about the odd problem or two be it the utilities cap at one end of the scale to fatigue at the other end (within reasonable bounds given that flying is fatigueing wherever you are)

If they feel safe and wanted then your half way there. The fact is given the current economical climate Pilots shouldn't be leaving Emirates, yes they are a bunch of mercenaries but if they are happy mercenaries they don't normally leave. I say that with 30 years of experience dealing with them!
:\

As "whossyorrynow"s post sadly shows, this forums negative attitude towards EK has been a fact for at least 6 years, in contrast to some of your earlier response that you were perfectly happy 2-3 years ago. It is sad that you let yourself be seduced by the negative image created here, and that you obviously try to persuade more EK staff into this incorrect view of the company.

During those 6 years EK has had fantastic growth, and very little turnover of its staff. If this forums description of reality was correct we would be out of business years ago. As I have stated earlier the turnover has recently increased some from its earlier record low numbers, and this is perfectly normal when the world economy recovers. Dubai, despite all its pleasures and joys are not for everyone and EK totally understands that some want to move back to their native countries if they get a competitive offer.

The higher turnover combined with new aircraft and a situation where EK has to compete with European and American carriers (after their long absence from the jobmarket) to hire new staff has created the current situation where some of EKs pilots have to take on a higher workload. This is not a situation that can be blamed on EKs management as EK don't control the factors that create the current situation. EK will always have a hard time competing against US and Western European carriers when it comes to staff as people always have a higher wish to work in their native country. EK try to compensate this by giving employees compensation packages that is highly competitive, and is very successful in doing so.

According to earlier posts airline personnel (ore anyone else for that matter) won’t do their best unless they are happy and like their job. I think that is totally true. With that in mind it is very pleasing to see that EK has customer satisfaction among the best in the airline world, and that passengers is very loyal to EK as they like the product we can offer.

On this background I strongly disagree with the notion that most EK personnel are not satisfied with their job or work conditions at EK. Your incorrect and inaccurate postings at PPRuNe does not affect EK recruitment severly, but the faulty image created here does make readers of this forum less likely to apply for a position at EK, and that is unfortunate as it is not based on facts.

I am not going to discuss company policy regarding people who is let go because of mishandling on their part. As such cases are strictly personal I think its unprofessional to speculate about what the individual has or has not done. No one is let go at EK unless they have performed actions that is in severe breach with regulations.

Regarding the utilities cap neither your or I am lawyers, and I based my posts on the legal view expressed by UAE lawyers on this matter. I think you should do the same as it is not our personal opinion that is relevant for how the contract is to be interpreted. The cap had to be introduced to stop a situation where all of us had to pay for a few employees shedding and excessive usage. This was a problem concerned to villas only, and it would not have been right to introduce a cap for employees not living in accommodation that was the subject of such luxury consumption. EK try to deal with challenges in a just manner, and I think the utilities cap is a perfect example of this.

EK does not, have not, and will not breach any employee contracts. If you don’t agree that this is the case you should take your complaints to the legal system. A change in compensation, rosters and so on does not happen unless it is extraordinarily necessary to ensure your job security and long term sustainability of the company. Emirates have a very strict safety policy that ensures the highest standards, and as a result EK has not had one fatal accident since its startup 25 years ago. It is the flight crew’s job to ensure the safety of each individual flight, and if the flight crew is not able to perform their job at the highest standards they should not be in the air. Any flight crew who does not act in accordance with this directly breaches international and company regulations. However EK cannot accept that flight crew won't abide their scheduled rosters if this is caused by unwillingness to perform your job because of negative attitude.

You argue that problems can't be taken up with the appropriate managers as you don't get the response you want. Of course management can’t do something about all minor complaints, but if you express them in a decent and professional manner and your complaint is shared by a large proportion of the staff it will be taken into consideration. Management staff can of course not comply with all wishes you might have, but try to do their best to ensure a good work environment for all EK employees.

"Kiwi" states a good point in his post. Thinking that you can change anything at EK through a internet forum is naive. Regardless of what position I might ore might not have, a forum like this is not the right place to take your complaints.

As it is the flight crew`s responsibility to ensure the safety of each individual flight , what may I ask is management`s responsibility ? You seem so adept at attributing blame to everyone and everything but yourselves. Seems to me like you management types think you can hide behind long-winded statements that actually say nothing but imply everything. We can read between the lines of everything you say. I think you totally underestimate the intelligence of the pilot workforce. If you were held to the same standards of responsibility as pilots are , you would have your license revoked.
I`m a highly experienced wide body Captain that will not be submitting my CV to such a poorly run and managed airline. Good luck EK pilots , you`ll need it.

Sports Background
 

Mana,

Oh dear, what a diatribe. From all the mistake of spelling and syntax, are you really qualified to communicate from your ivory tower?
Do tell what sports you played at school. I would be most surprised if the list included rugby, because that would require team spirit, co-ordination and commitments to training.
"The Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton." Capeesh? I thought not.

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/littleangel.gif

Mana,
I don't often post here although I am a very regular reader.
You are absolutely full of ****.
I have been here 11 years. My contract states clearly that utilities will be paid for - it is not referenced to the employee handbook which is EK's normal method of reducing my terms and conditions.
If you think morale is not at an all time low, may I suggest a line flight. Never know, it may also be a nice change for you.
I am looking at leaving asap - something I would have thought impossible 4 or 5 years ago.

Mana:

Your pilot workforce is western. Flying was invented in the west. So was The Queen's English. So is most of current global contract law. In order to obtain legitimate entry in to the world of finance, even the DIFC operates under the British Legal System. This is noteworthy and important, as it shows the high regard placed on such a system. Sadly, our contracts do not fall under this jurisdiction. This is however advantageous for EK.

You may parse that contract changes don't qualify as illegal changes here under UAE Law. You are naive in the extreme to expect a professional workforce of pilots to be happy with forced reversions in terms and conditions at the whim of company management. No one likes to go backwards. Legal or not.

You are posting to attempt to correct some perception that you have that the posts on this forum are innaccurate. Again, you are mistaken. Emirates Airlines pilots are attempting to correct certain misperceptions in the market about this carrier and its treatment of its employees so that prosepctive employees will either be giving consideration, or perhaps even come to EK, armed with facts and truths that these individuals wish they were armed with upon thier entering in to the employ of this company. There is certainly more than a little frustration with the sleight of hand management style. We like to be honest and we expect the same in kind.

A fair day's wage for a fair day's work. That, by tradition has been around 65-80 hours per month, varying a bit depending on the type of operation. When a carrier posts a 406 million USD profit (2008 fiscal year, not the 268 million someone mistakenly quoted earlier), and doesn't give anything back to the employees, instead altering the 'de-facto' conditions of service without consultation then the company is going to face some public outcry.

The internet is a powerful tool. It has suplanted cordial relations between the pilot workforce and management and that genie isn't going back in the bottle. You have pushed us beyond our reasonable limits and a reasonable man is going to fight back with the tools - the only tool he has. That is this forum and I endorse it wholeheartedly as the last stand for pilots at this company.

Your even tempered tone belies the futility of your endeavor.

My loyalty to this company is only as valid as the paper it was written on - and that has been demonstrated to be as whimsical, manipulative, coy and disengenuous as you are.

Don't grow a wish-bone where you should have a backbone.

I, like "Mister Warning", am also not a frequent poster. I am however quite a frequent reader. I too have been here longer than is required for full provident fund redemption on resignation. I too am looking at getting out of here just as soon as I can. I used to love it here. But the present management and it's attitude leaves me stone cold - for every reason afore-stated. "Mana" epitomises the ignorance and arrogance inherent in management today. Respect is earned - not commanded. Sadly, today's manangement doesn't know what that means.

Unbelievable! This is my only answer to Mana´s attitude. In stead of trying to listen and understand we only get manage-speak and head burying. Not ONE question answered by this guy! Only propaganda and BS.
This is a timewasting exercise, same as the pilots meetings. Guys, as sad as it is, this guy shows you exactly the "I don´t care about your complaints" attitude of our management. How very, very sad!
Don´t waste your time here anymore, nothing will change because they don´t want to change anything! :ugh:

Mana is here to refute our claims because it's making a difference. We know the truth here, please ignore his management drivel and spare others from enduring the disgraceful management treatment of ALL the employee groups within EK.

A double post but Mana needs to hear the truth,


Mana,

EK is at the point that management feels compelled enough to damage control and post on an internet forum. Very telling situation isn't it? This fact alone should be extremely worrying and as mentioned before is an effect not a cause of the poor morale within EK.

If an individual has a 50-60k yearly drm DEWA bill, perhaps it would be best to isolate the issue not brushstroke the entire villa community and unilaterally alter a contract. When isolated incidences occur don't you think they should be treated as such? This applies to shoot from the hip FCIs, FCNs, SOP's and a plethora of other reactionary changes over the recent years. Take some time to digest the situation and why it happened and how it can be reasonably rectified for a win-win solution.

Cost cutting contract adjustments and productivity increases have been made to the complete disregard for the safety and health of the pilot group. Fatigue is a very serious issue and rosters are stretched to the absolute maximum. The time zone changes, day and night operations and challenges to some of our destinations are not fully appreciated or considered. Just keep your head down, you are lucky to have a job we are told. Good for morale??

The company is disjointed from many outside managers with the job of cost cutting and internal savings. There is very little cohesion or an open door policy of any kind. Come and talk to your manager? You must be joking. It is a very dragonian management style and here we are trying to vent our frustrations. Believe it Mana, this is a fact. It might not seem like it from your office, but look at these posts. It's not idle complaints and bored pilots with nothing better to do. There has been a paradigm shift in the last 5 years and EK is a money making machine, not so much a proud employer of highly motivated and happy employees. Can you imagine the profits if that were the case? One of the frustrating facts is that the foundations are there to make EK a great place to work. However, we are treated and FEEL like a neccessary evil. So just a few suggestions:

Respect our contract and conditions of service, more open and honest dialogue, read the last one again, honor internal transfers by seniority, hire more pilots for greater flexibility and lower the bid window, implement a true non-punitive safety culture, reward us when we sacrifice with pay increases, give us more positive feedback and search for ways of improving morale. It IS important.

Most pilots are willing to help and have done so in great numbers in the past but pay us over a reasonable threshold, not 92 hours. Most pilots have a very professional attitude, give EK their best and want this company to succeed, but you can't keep eroding our working conditions and take advantage of us without an eventual backlash. You have it before you.

But you say we must do this to protect the companies interests and profitability...yes, but to what end Mana? Where does the cost cutting and increase in productivity end? On the very backs of your hard working employees, EK will announce outstanding profits at year end in a couple months. I sincerely hope the pilot group will be compensated for our contributions.

This is not a PPRuNe rogue group of negative pilots spouting off - this is honest feedback and the true realities from your hard working line pilots. EK is in the business of moving people, but it is also in the business of PEOPLE and PEOPLE, not airplanes , is it's most important commodity. I suggest EK start to remember this and quickly.

The honesty above are the facts of this airline, and you sir are naive to think this forum is not a ligitimate outlet to voice our concerns because without a governing body or a real support group for us at EK ,this is ALL we have. With your strong language of professionalism and compliance, I suggest you also abide to the highest standards and fix what is obviously broken. I'd say you have some work to do...

I respectfully suggest everybody step down from warning prospective new hires about the dangers of coming to EK.
It is now totally unnecessary as Mana has taken the job upon him/herself

Regards to all:)

The dogmatism of the EK management as depicted here by mana(gement) is typical for an uneducated ex-army (navy-whatever) mediocre little man from the midlands. And his team.

Funny that the little man talks about UAE law, a mix of sharia and western law and takes that as a basis for the contract the pilots have signed. Law of the contract is were you signed it, in your country.

Funny that he talks about a totally failed manpower planning, something the little man can not do anything about.

The little, insignificant man has not done anything for the fleet, pilots, employees for the past seven years.

Keep on going with your `pre war Yorkshire hospital` management style.

eventually your time will be up.

Utter, Utter, Utter CRAP!!!

EK did not do any recruiting during a period when aircraft were rolling in and people were leaving. Why? Because they had changed the productivity threshold and thus thought they could man the new aircraft with the same number of crew working 90+ hrs/mth indefinatley.

Not their fault that this simply didn't work? I can tell you first hand that senior members of flight ops told the VPs it couldn't be sustained and were ignored.

As to a competative package, yes, it's still not bad. But how do you explain a situation where the demand for pilots is increasing, yet our package is significantly less than it was previously?

So, you don't think company policy (or, more accuratley, the comopanies propensity to IGNORE it's non-punative policy!!) is of interest to existing pilots or prospective joiners?

But why was the interpretation changed? The COMPANY interpreted the contract to mean that all utilities were paid, then changed its mind. This would be a breach of coman law under any decent legal system. If it is fair and reasnoble to have a cap on utilities, why was that cap not specified in the contract?

As I said, Mana, if you've pissed ME off to the point of having to point out the flaws in your pro-company ramblings, you've done your case no good at all!

I don't believe it! Mana a Pom?
Yer 'avin' a laugh!

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/laughinatu.gif

wow
 

I, like many of you, am an avid reader but rarely post. However after seeing the posts from our friend "mana" I would like to share my views.

"Leadership" - definition
"The ART of influencing human behaviour in order to accomplish a mission towards a common goal." In my opinion severely lacking in EK.

The current practices of rostering crews for 92 hrs a month remind me of some of the 'safaris' driving down SZR. The red line is NOT a goal! It's a limitation! Sooner or later your going to need some serious work done, or have to change the system.

As far as I'm concerned (with all respect) most pilots have degrees in something from uni or college besides being pilots, most being in business. I don't know about you, but I could sit at a desk and make descisions just like you do, however do you know how to perform a single engine go-around mana? Bottom line is guys we are PROFESSIONALS, and we can't let anyone forget that.

As far as the choice of being here or home, of course we'd all like to be at home. However, we all chose to come here because the "package" was good. Mana, my friend, the package is all relative. If anyone of us could make the same at home we'd be there. Period. And unfortunately the package is sliding very quickly! TC's, hours, fatigue, blah blah, the list go's on! I think EK better wake up before they have a bunch of shiny AC sitting on the ramp with no one to fly them.

Someone else made a good point earlier. They talk about making employees happy. Hmm. Someone threatens to leave, pay them more. Hmm. Roadshow says life in Dubai will be rosy and fun. Hmm. How about retention of the 2200 or so guys and gals filling seats right now here in DXB for you!!!! How about trying to keep the skilled, professional, and talented people you have to keep the airline profitable and more importantly safe!

When I think back to 5 or 6 years ago, if you knew someone who worked at EK, they had made it! You strived to get there, and be a part of something special. Now, I am here, and wish it was as I heard it once was.

Guys and gals, I am proud to fly with each and every one of you. Keep it safe and hopefully one day our friend mana will wake up, talk to his superiors and make this place what it has the potential to be.

Joke.

trimotor: Corrected, I depend to heavily on spell check, so when it’s not there for me things start to go wrong :).

I have no more to add in relation to other discussion points raised. I have expressed my view, you have expressed yours. I think it’s extremely unfortunate that you see people who view EK in a more positive light than yourself as company ramblers.

We have all acknowledged that EK has several challenges that need to be addressed and that everything is not perfect. I have tried to voice in a polite manner that internet forums is not the right place to take up these issues, and they will not get solved through discussing them here.

EK is one company with employees working together towards one goal. To be the best possible airline. I think it’s discouraging you don't see we are all in this together, and the only way to solve our problems is through cooperation and teamwork. Your view that everyone involved in management are either deaf ore dumb is both counterproductive and totally wrong.

I am happy that the views reflected by the majority of you are not representational for EKs staff, and that the reality experienced luckily differs allot from the one portrayed here. I think EK needs to take measures to ensure that negative views not in accordance with reality is not tolerated, and that such views cannot be allowed to destroy the good working climate at EK. If we could operate in a professional manner and have faith in our co-workers we would all be much better off.