If not Emirates, then where to ??
 

First, I´d like to thank all people who took their time and posted on threads about EK. For sure, things look a lot rosey from the outside. The thing is, though: I live in a 3rd world country, where I am not satisfied with my job (A320 F/O). Neither my wage is good, nor I have much time home. Management is also close to this "don´t disturb me" approach I read many complaining about. So, for me, going to EK, even though it is not as good as I thought, and being advised by people who work there, would substantially increase my income and family relation.

My question is: If not EK, where to ?? Note that going to an US major or Europe is a no/no due to my citizenship.

HI,

Where are you from?
Maybe you can go to Qatar Airways or Kuwait Airways or Etihad Airways?

best regards,
Patrick

Hello, Patrick;
From what I´ve heard, Ethiad is less than EK, and Qatar is not a nice place to bring family to, due to their religious extremism (so I heard, not personal). I did not hear anything about Kuwait, but it sounds to me like the city is not as good as Dubai is.

Eisenhower
 

Your question is justified.

IF you come to the Middle East there is only one airline to go to:- Emirates.

Emirates might not be paradise but at least they have some level of professionalism and by far the best "total package"....

All others are probably worse than your present airline (esp. QR and GF):zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

Good luck

Try Cathay Pacific.

Yeah, Dog....and go to those forums and you'll see more of the same management / crew / lifestyle issues as here
CX...big issues... heard about the 49ers? ...and that's old news
2 guys from Dragon dismissed for not working on days off
.....seriously, we're all getting the shaft

To be honest it sounds like most airlines have the same kind of issues... However, when it comes to the Gulf I would say EK is probably the best bet - Etihad's still the new kid on the block, Qatar's trying hard to be like EK (but I don't think that using A319s for medium to long haul is the way to go:\ :\ )

As for where is best to live, well - depends what you like. I like Dubai, I know others will disagree but there is a lot to do there. Abu Dhabi's a long way behind, Qatar again trying to play "catchup". I hear that Bahrain's a nice place, and I know Oman is.... I wouldn't bother with Sharjah though:{

Thanks for your posts. I´ve noticed a good number of Europeans and Americans at EK. I would like to know what makes the package at EK more interesting than, let´s say Cathay, that have bases both in the EU and the US. Wouldn´t a company like CX be actually what many are looking for ?

I think its more about lifestyle,its not just the package that we should consider.Personally if i had to choose between living in US or Dubai i would go to Dubai without thinking twice.

@White Knight

Why a 319LR is a bad choice for medium ops? First of all I was already a pax on this 319 and it is in points of pax comfort equal to a "real" long range aircraft.
Just because at least one ME airline starts to use it`s brain to reduce costs on low densitiy sectors it doesn`t mean they offer a bad product. I find the 319(I guess as well Airbus does!) fits perfect for 6-7 hour flights from the ME to europe - why should you use a 330 for, lets say 80 Passengers? It would be just uneconomic!

An other thing - I read often the word copy in regard of Emirates and Qatar Airways - do you really think Emirates did develop everything by themself, please ..........:hmm: I think they where as well really busy copying European and Asian Airlines;) .

I think places to go in the ME are Qatar Airways and Emirates, Etihad are still ignorants beeing just fixed on typerated guys, gulf air playing in a totally other, much poorer, league.

I am aware of some really bad threads about Qatar Airways, however, honestly I hardly believe most of the stories coming from always the same writers. If I think back to some of my previous companies, I could write a lot of bad things nearly matching the post about Qatar. And I worked for airlines like lauda air and swiss...:mad:

I dunno Ike
Its just the same toy, repackaged.

...unless my info is out of date Pax fleet ....Start as a SO in Hong Kong ...yeah great!
Cargo fleet...direct entry FO EU bases ( and maybe the States too) ...Doesn't pay the same by a long shot, but you can move ( bid) after a term.
The recent ads in FLIGHT int (expressions of interest) were offering Direct entry FO, Pax fleet in Australia....and considdering that there are alot of Aussie SO, FOs in Hong Kong wanting to base at home, a new recruit going strait into a Brisbane base would be a real kick in the kazoo.

I cant really help with your original question, but I'd have to say EK is as good, or bad as the rest ...if you reed the other forums, no bed of roses anywhere

tomuchwork,
so where are you now that you know so much about EK?

CX is a no-brainer.
As an S/O you will earn the same as an Emirates Captain.
2 years later you will earn 50-75% more or get bypass pay.
10 years later you will be on 3 times the pay.
And you can own property outright and after 7 years service you get a permanent resident visa that nobody will take away.

:{ (I want to go there too)

......a CX SO...??? pays as much as an EK captain???
Good Christ, man!
....this is getting rather silly now ...
...wild statments like that are not adding credibility to your painting of the EK picture.
Go to the Harbour forum and bask in the dissatisfaction contained within, then get back to me and tell me the flavor of what you find...DECs, DEFOs 49ers. If you still think its a move worth taking, then dont ask why new EK guys 'never listen to good advice'

...and while I'm here, what's current the upgrade time for the fellas in CX? ...with the recent adds in FLIGHT for Direct entry and bases other than Honkers, quite awhile, huh ....sound familiar?

@zomp

What you mean? You mean that EK for sure didn`t develop flying:) (because the brits together with the germans did:hmm: , at least you get the impression flying in and over this countries).

That the use a livery that as well enough other airlines use as well? What`s your point...

I am following various threads about EK and Qatar. I see on both sides a lot of complainers. Some complaints might be right, some other are propably from some angry F/Os missing out on upgrades, for reasons most likely just the airline and the F/O know.

JUST - to say Emirates is the only good place to go in the ME I personally find a bit snobistic. My opinion.

......a CX SO...??? pays as much as an EK captain???

Unfortunately its true, can somebody back me up here i dont have the scales to post.

cathay pacific (passenger ops)
SO base £38,676
EK:
Capt base 24518 AED (roughly £3650 a month £43,000 a year)

according to PPJ-network, i don't know if EK or CX offers free housing or such and these digits probadly aren't very accurate

C'mon !! ....EK captains get over 28K ...36K after top-ups for DECs is the current rumour

Not so no-lights. A starter in the left seat is on between 24000 and 25000AED. the web site states 27000ishAED as a start pay, but that would be a 2nd year captain. If he were to take the accomodation allowance that would be another 9000AED per month. So thats just under a CX JFO pay wise. Of course the EK fella will be flying 900hrs a year of back of the clock flying, so saving for a long retirement is not required.

Don

Approximate Numbers CX S/O
 

CX S/O about HKD45000 per month basic plus HKD20000 housing = ~HKD65000 monthly, about USD8300. Taxed at 16% ~ USD7000.

Cx SO makes more than EK Captain ????????????
 

That doesn't sound right !!

From what I found CX SO starts with approx 386,550.00 but that's Hong Kong dollars !!!!!! Plus you take away, i think, 16% for MR. Tax Man !

So if I got it right that comes down to about 3500 USD per month . I guess that's more like it now .

Cheers ,

Igor...

EKPRISONER, think your mixed up a bit. Starting salary FIRST OFFICER Emirates, Basic plus housing is 27000 Dirham is net income US$7400. This is excluding Provident funds(12%), bonus, dental,medical, erp and child education. guess thats about right. As fare as I know thats not what an CX SO is making. Don,t know what EK Captain is making

EK A B and C scale salaries
 

In this part of the world A scale does not represent the longest serving members of the pilot work force but quite the opposite. This is whats on offer:}

First conversions

1USD =3.67 Dirhams
1Dirham=2.11 HKD

First year captain average 3 to 5 years at EK (C scaler) basic salary 24500 AED.

*O AED if in company accomodation (90percent of pilot workforce)
*minus 170 AED for medical if married and 0 kids(it is not free medical chaps)
*O benefit to you with O KIDS

You can avail yourself of company accomodation which is non reversible and BOOST your salary by 9600AED per month.BUT you will be on your own AND will definately use all of it if you decide to rent something at least as half as decent as what EMIRATES supply. SO dont count it as salary unless you decide to live in some sh***hole to save a few dids. In which case you will not like it here long.

Now then, last year the company introduced a B scale by introducing Direct entry Captains, the first year salary was not good enough so no suitable captains came. SO what to do!! what any GOOD manager should do. Introduce a better salary to attract the guys. Which is what they did BUT whoops not for everybody JUST for them!:ugh: So the 2005 DEC B scale was born!! Therefore DEC 2005 B scaler 0 years at EK move to the 5th year of the Captains scale on 28175 AED per month.:ok: Good stuff hey!!

Anyway needing over 100 DEcs this year but you guessed it money not getting those captains to come on B scale salaries so the talk of the town is the 2006 A SCALE for DECs straight in at circa 35000 to 36000AED per month.:mad: I am Ten years with the company and still am not near that.

Hears the cruncher.

Requirements are 10000 hours 4000 jet command above 55TONNES

Hands up any body else meeting those requirements at EK but are looking like needing 3 to 5 years plus to reach those salary levels!:mad:

so there it is chaps and chapesses crunch the numbers and compare.

KEEP RECOVERING:ok:

Ringading - if you're going to ring your bell - get your facts straight pse.

you say "You can avail yourself of company accomodation which is non reversible and BOOST your salary by 9600AED per month."

This means that you take the company accommodation - then you definitely don't boost yr salary by 9600AED...

I think what he is trying to say is if you take the allowance instead of company accommodation - you get the allowance of 9600AED but then have to pay your own rent and your own utilities.

then you say "Now then, last year the company introduced a B scale by introducing Direct entry Captains, the first year salary was not good enough so no suitable captains came. SO what to do!! what any GOOD manager should do. Introduce a better salary to attract the guys. Which is what they did BUT whoops not for everybody JUST for them! So the 2005 DEC B scale was born!! Therefore DEC 2005 B scaler 0 years at EK move to the 5th year of the Captains scale on 28175 AED per month. Good stuff hey!!"

My husband was a DEC and I can tell you that his salary was less than the amount you quote.

I know this is a rumour forum but this rumour is not true!

ekwife
 

Quote
My husband was a DEC and I can tell you that his salary was less than the amount you quote.

Ans: thats the amount he tells you he gets, what about all his other wives around the world to support!:}

Quote
I know this is a rumour forum but this rumour is not true!

Ans: A Professional PILOT!! Rumour forum.:rolleyes:

CW

Not sure about any "scales", but after three years as an FO and you cross over, the basic salary is DHM 27,000.

halas

There is nothing misleading or untruthful in what Ringading posted.
Ekwife... and I quote
''My husband was a DEC and I can tell you that his salary was less than the amount you quote''
If your are husband WAS a DEC....... then either he has quit or he is STILL a DEC. He will forever be a DEC until the day he quits.
Here are some of the affects of the DEC program which you persistently try to defend.
-low morale
-a huge increase in good pilots leaving EK
-a shocking increase in 'no shows' for courses
-a disturbing decline in suitable applicants
-an A, B and perhaps C payscale
-disunity within the pilot group
-an unsustainable increase in pilot workload
-one lawsuit
-an increase in detrimental health effects as a secondary result of the loss of suitable applicants
-a general mistrust in management's capabilities and truthfulness
-a lowering of the standard across the board (in addition recent DEC applicants who failed the interview are now being offered a job)
The DEC program is the worst of many bad policies that EK have instituted in the past 2 years.
This is not a slight on your hubby. Perhaps he is a decent human being and a good pilot. Do i blame him for the DEC policy? No.... unless of course he has no recognition of the bad affects it has had on the lives of over 1000 pilots and families at EK. If your attitude is a reflection of his, then i pity the F'O's who have to fly with him.
If you truly believe what you are defending then that is fine. We simply disagree. If you are attempting to lure others into joining EK as a means to improve your lifestyle and further improve your husbands lot in life, then I believe that is dishonorable.

EK WIFE

Maybe if your hubby had joined this year as a DEC he would be looking at 350000 dhs a month instead of 28000!

Upsetting isnt it!!:{ :{

KEEP RECOVERING:ok:

WHOOPS 350000 would be nice.

But correcting myself for all those exactabees 35000DHS:sad:

KEEP RECOVERING:ok:

yes, my hubby is still a DEC with EK. Believe me, he too had his time of pursuing the captain's seat and had disappointments as well, but as a few people have pointed out, if you get the opportunity to get a DEC position, who is going to turn it down. We needed it for our family and I am sorry for those who feel that he has "taken" what was theirs, but that is life. I'm sorry too that you feel I have an "attitude" but I truly get annoyed at some of the posts posted sometimes.

I am not trying to lure anyone here - what for. It just irks me sometimes when the truth is stretched to look worse than it is. why? what is the idea behind some people biting the hand that feeds it, continually. It's not good and I know that there is no-one that you can go to with grievances without jeopardising your job, but we knew that before we came here and we accept it.

Ek is a great life for some and those who are unhappy here, must also realise that and not only see their side all the time without shooting down anyone who says that they are happy.

We are happy here - for sure there are some things that could be improved on but for us our glass is half full.

well- Ekgirl - just my thouhgts...

you're stating "if you get the opportunity to get a DEC position, who is going to turn it down. We needed it for our family and I am sorry for those who feel that he has "taken" what was theirs, but that is life"

... which is really selfish, unprofessionell, disgraceful an purely egoistic!

I know some Captains (high calibre guys - with backbone and minimum moral views !!) , who would NEVER accept such a biased offer - thus shafting the hard-working F/Os their, by grabbing THEIR commands- by just exploiting the opportunity- that's as low, as it can get !

We (Senior F/Os with massive Command-Experience as well) get shafted by those selfish guys, who just can't get enough, and don't let other pilots get their earned (!!!) share as well in due time!

We (Me!!) have also families to feed, and we agreed to wait our time, but now we've been overlooked in favour of those blokes ! ...after serving 4 hard years in EK with > 10.000 hrs as well !!

Thus, the moral of our pilots workforce is even more deteriorated by that, as your "hubby"
(how sweet....) had just to come here to harvest other pilots seed! Great !!

Ek is definitively on their way down the drain by allowing this - the painting is on the wall!
Sorry - but i'get really bitter, if i have to imagine to fly with one of these DEC-blokes in the nearest future ...
But - Hey, don't worry, my CVs are sent out already!!
I might even consider now, taking my old - left hands seat - job on a MD 83 in europe up again ...

That's what you "hubby" - and the alikes - have achieved in EK ! Thanx for that !! :yuk:

Tomorrow, i will at least join the real flying fun, by attending the Red-Bull-Air-Race in AUH -
Anybody's down there t'morrow as well !?

Remember: "Fly fast, Fly low, Fly left" - wasn't it !?! Well- Reno -those were the days ... Ahhhhh

or possibly half EMPTY. :p

Half full or half empty, some might say is there even a glass????

Q - if a woman says something and there isn't a man there to hear it is she still wrong????

Cyberbird says...

"I know some Captains (high calibre guys - with backbone and minimum moral views !!) , who would NEVER accept such a biased offer - thus shafting the hard-working F/Os their, by grabbing THEIR commands- by just exploiting the opportunity- that's as low, as it can get !"

And then goes on to say...

"But - Hey, don't worry, my CVs are sent out already!!
I might even consider now, taking my old - left hands seat - job on a 737 in europe up again ..."

It seems to me that there might be some "hard working f/o's" back at that company in Europe. You don't have a problem going back there and taking their hard earned spot in the left seat.

Does anyone else see that this guy is full of crap.

He also says...

We (Me!!) have also families to feed, and we agreed to wait our time, but now we've been overlooked in favour of those blokes ! ...after serving 4 hard years in EK with > 10.000 hrs as well !!

With those credentials you should be a captain already or have you ticked off too many with that big mouth of yours?

7

ekwife,
Your husbands salary may well be less than the amount quoted. The pay packages for DEC's were not consistent and ranged from Dh 25,000 to a high of Dh 30,000. It was supposed to be based on experience but even that yardstick was not applied consistently.

This is the point that some are trying to make, there is no consistency here. While the company may very well be trying to offer DEC's what's on the website, most have no doubt that should their efforts be unsuccessful, all bets will be off and a better offer will be made while completely ignoring the long serving pilots already here.

Cyberbird.
Just tell me the difference between ekwife’s hubby and yourself, the moment you are back home taking the left hand seat away from another hard working FO of that company, having a family aswell and having awaited his time just as long.
What were your words again at the beginning of your post?
“... which is really selfish, unprofessionell, disgraceful an purely egoistic!”
The double standard thing, which reigns this part of the world, must have got to you real fast.
It’s up to the individual to run his own career out in today’s jungle. Definitely not to others to do it in your favour if the companies shaft us. YOU made the (apparently) wrong decision at the time when you signed an open contract. We’ll all get shafted eventually, even hubby might, but then again we all signed our own contracts.
Almost all FO’s at EK consider their career here transitory. Once they will have achieved their fourth stripe, they’ll eventually move on. You can bet that none of them intends to do that by moving back in line on the right hand seat!
Drop us all a post right here if your highness in calibre has done this one day.
I will take back every word I wrote here.
ttn

We joined as F/Os because, for some reason or other they didnt offer us DEC. Who in their right mind would turn down a DEC job over a F/O job with the same airline.

Get off your high horse boys...

The day you leave EK, you too will be looking at adds that say "DEC NEEDED.."

Basic salary for new capt is 27000 AED, not 24500 AED as stated.

I dont agree that DEC should get more than me.....but that is the risk of getting a non unionized job. We are all hired on an individual basis.

My husband was a DEC and I can tell you that his salary was less than the amount you quote.
I know this is a rumour forum but this rumour is not true![/QUOTE]

As Gillegan comments some DECs who were less keen to join EK were seduced by an 'improving' contract. There was a degree of negotiation available with a basic package of up to DH30,000+ on offer at the time.

Those DECs who joined on DH24,000+ undersold themselves in their desparation to join EK

EkWife has the smell of a Brit, perhaps the thought of GBP1,000+/month after tax in lost salary will make her cup seem less than half full.

She mentions that her family knew what it was joining, but so did everybody who joined 1992-2004, they were joining an airline with a seniority system that did not include DECs.

The company has overlooked many competent First Officers with DEC qualifications simply because it is cheaper on paper to employ a DEC, an upgrade First Officer requires replacement so the training costs are doubled.

How quickly EK has moved from being praised and lauded on Pprune to now being despised and ridiculed.

It is hard to see how the A380 can be trained for as it will take crews off a line program that is already undercrewed and barely working. Increasing numbers of people are leaving and not enough people are joining.

Drastic and expensive action is needed now to save this airline from a big fall.

When Cyberbird says: I might even consider now, taking my old - left hands seat - job on a 737 in europe up again ...
I don't consider that the same as a DEC.

I'm in a same situation. When I left my previous company a few years ago, I was in a let seat after some years as a F/O, climbing up the seniority system. After my resignation, the people running the show told me that they were more than happy with my work for the company, and if I ever for any reason felt I wanted to come back, I could take up my old position as a Captain.
Although it is a 'grey area', this old company knows me as good as I know them, I've been working for them for several years, did a training as F/O and did my upgrade with them. Also, there wouldn't be many F/O's with my experience flying for that company... Therefore, I don't think going back to a previous employer where you did serve a certain amount of time before can be regarded the same as a DEC case.

MR8