Plovdiv:
The EK contract didn't include a seniroty list, nor excluded DEC's. Read into that whatever you want, they will read it their way.
MR8:
You're applying your point of view, the FO's back in UK will most probably look at it differently..... At least if you accept that your point of view should apply there, you should accept a DEC's point of view here, if you don't want to be accused of applying double standards.

I am not defending DEC's, they act like almost everyone of us would act. It's a fact of aviation that some companies just do it this way. We should persuade them with valuable arguments that our way would be cheaper in the long run. We should ALL stop flying on days off even if it pays a fast buck, in the long run you certainly get less. We should stop flying into discretion, call in sick when fatigued etc. Flights need to be cancelled for lack of crew, then things might change because the incompetent managers will start beeing asked questions and they might turn for our help. We should persuade AS and AAR that they'll find FO's much easier when lowering the requirement to 2500h. These guys would start tomorrow and should be suitable enough. They will need longer to get the 8000h for command, thus wont bitch that quick to change seat, are transferable to the 380 (because they stay longer). Transfer Airbus skippers to the 777 (preferably the only 330 rated) they need about 15 productive days less training than DEC's (+5 less for the only 330 having no 340 conversion). Upgrade the many ready on the Bus to replace them, Bus sims have the capacity, at least more than the 777 for the accelerated command farce. The system would run smoother and CHEAPER (you moron beancounters!!!!)

Bring in other ideas and arguments, but stop lashing out on DEC's who are already here, it's useless.
ttn

ttn,

completely agree with you. I am against the company taking in DEC's, but can't hold anything against an individual taking up this opportunity.

In case AS or AAR can't live with 2500hr F/O's, why not make them S/O's; you would be able to find people as S/O, suitable for the long range operations. A cheaper way of getting 3 man flightdecks on several flights which are now operated to the limit with 2 pilots. Also, like you say, these people would need at least about 5 years before they have 6000hrs for command. Would solve the F/O shortage and make operations cheaper - why didn't they think about that one yet???

MR8

ttn

My point was more to do with EkWifes' statement that she knew what she was coming to.

She would be correct if she is pointing out that she expects constantly moving goalposts etc. But I don't think she was. Presumably she also knew that they wouldn't be the most popular animal on the farm either.

Having said that, not much changed from around '95 until about a year after the arrival of CK. We were paid fairly, paid just about enough and the non contractual seniority system worked well. EK became an airline that people aspired to work for. Can't say that now.

And if DECs and their wives put themselves up for a lashing, which they do, then people are going to lash.

As individuals they are, with some exceptions, good guys, as a concept they are despised. That's just the way it is.

Any DEC who once belonged to a previous airline that had a seniority list,and upgrade policy knows exactly what they have done by coming to EK on whichever scale they are on.24-30 K whatever.TCK put this flawed policy in place against all advice,it was divide & conquer from the start.
Each to their own,however seeing DECs here from my old airline who were members of the union and fought ANY attempt to degrade their Ts &Cs then,yet alone mention DEC is laughable hypocrisy.Some DECs are very able some are extremely average operators,yet feel thy ae a credit to EK and CRM nightmares,it is this lack of standardisation in the DECs that will be the Achilles heel.I see it time and again in the simulator and on line.
The DEC programme was not temporary as we were told,it is a FACT of EK life now but has IMHO been a huge mistake in the damage it has done to the workforce which is even more uncohesive than it was before.EK has lost credibility we are guns for hire in a dog eat dog airline that is sliding rapidly.
It is very man for himself(herself EK wife),sad but very true.Time will tell but EK is the loser in the long run for self inflicted damage.
The pub awaitsQB

I have 14000 hrs 4500 command 767 and im stuck on the friggin Airbus with no future ,no command in the forseeable future and no scores less than fours ,:* and im not allowed to leave and come back , but believe me i am leaving ......................

............I'll bet you dont..:hmm:

...interesting that nowadays FO`s are deciding if a commander is good or not....Maybe EK should ask some of you guys selecting DEC`s :8 . Allways the same, there is always a conspiration theory...:suspect: ....

Well, you sound like someone a few First Officers might have an opinion about.

And its toOmuchwork.

Plodiv , an obscure industrial town in Bulgaria...need I say more.

You could say that you are a DEC posing as a First Officer who has spent the last few months posting platitudes about aging DECs in an attempt to make yourself appear respectable.

And why not?

A DEC from a fading European non EEC flag carrier (but not your flag). Spoken highly of, by the way.

Need I say more?

tomuchwork,
you were with lauda and swiss? don't think so.

I have to agree with EKwife. We all say we wouldn't do it, but given a chance to go DEC onto a 777 or Airbus we would all do it. To increase our pay, job security and marketabilty of ourselves.

Emirates is there to do business and make money and will do whatever it takes, hire whoever it wants to sit in the left seat if they think safety is being compromised. It is their airline and we are all expates here.

Not to defend them, I personally think they have not given the current FO's enough credibility in doing the job from the other seat. The day when we get away from this BS ..."lowest common denominator" and see that some of our FO's were very experienced Captains, or perhaps very experiences FO's from the States, Canada or wherever and can fly circles around some captains, then only will the upgrades happen.

I hear that and it irks me. I am not a local cadet pilot that started flying yesterday.

Its funny if someone left here and went back to europe and got a DEC on a 737, flew 3 years could come back here and be worthy of the left seat.

I had asked this question some time ago, where does the real problem lie at EK? Is it the housing, EK pays for it and the bills. Sure it might not be the place you desire but living in a villa for free you can sock away a lot of money.

Schedule, does it suck? Over worked and under paid? DEC's , sure I can relate to that.

My opinion, tax free place to live and a good provident fund you can certainly retire. Sure it's not like it used to be but it seems to be like that every where. EK seems a lot more stable than some other places in Europe and North America.

You can travel to Europe easily or where ever you want to go. Schools seem pretty good and a new emerging city in the world. So can someone please explain why EK is messed up.

I have an interview coming up and I see more postives in EK than negatives. I just want to make a few bucks like everyone else and fly some good equitment and travel around with the wife every once and a while to some new spots.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha More people from lalaland.......... you certainly have a 'buzz" going, don't you?

Buzzmeister,
it seems you didn't make your homework, you must have a lousy job to give it up just like that.
There are so many negative stories on pprune but you people do not listen anyway after 6 months or even earlier you will regret it, can't wait to read your posts then.

Buzz

For sure things aren't what they used to be but you'll realise it's the same bunch of guys posting the same negativity constantly. We all have our gripes here, and believe me there are many, but not so bad that everyone is leaving on mass.........at least not yet anyway!

What surprises me is that the regular 'bad boys' are still in EK and STILL posting month after month after month. Guess it can't be THAT bad then after all, eh! :suspect:

Harry

I read and can pass over most comments here, but I simply couldn't resist replying to this gem Maaaate, let me assure you that you're in for a big disappointment in that department. Getting your wife on a flight just about anywhere on the EK network is damn near impossible unless you're willing to line up cap in hand for days on end - with all the other staff who are trying to do the same thing. (You may not be aware that the jump seat for the missus, even when you're the operating pilot, is simply out of the question, with no exceptions.)

And staff travel is (the?) one area that EK does respect seniority. As a new joiner, you and your wife will be in line after everyone with a start date before yours.

I have a mate who once worked as a recruiting officer in the Air Force. I remember him saying to me that all prospective recruits had one thing in common. They simply tuned out to any information he offered them that was in any way negative. When he told them the job would be disruptive to their home life etc, they simply didn't hear him.

He said thay all had one other thing in common. To a man, twelve months later, they'd be screaming that they hadn't been warned about all those things he told them about before they signed on the dotted line and took Lizzie's shilling.

Buzz
 

Buzz, its really all about expectations.
Ek may not be what it was, but I wonder what airline is. From my perspective in the USA, we are on a spiral of less pay and security for what we do.
Perhaps SIA is a better deal , if you have the 50000 usd to get the job.
Cathay, great company, and good pay . Good luck getting it. For us in the USA,options are limited. Everything you make is taxed, and your pension is probably on life support if not dead already.
A first year Ek F/O makes about 5ooo/month.by my estimation, based on where you live(US State) I would have to make 7200 usd/month- not including houseing to see that type of take home pay.- not including houseing. Starting pay at Continental Airlines is about 3000 usd, less tax.In 7 years one would make 737 Captain, and get about 140/hr.- thats 10500 usd gross, or about 7500 usd take home pay.
Now I know you are not from the USA, but the general principle applies.
Again, was the job better in the past- yes. I would have loved to fly long haul for Pan Am. Is Ek the job for you? Only you can judge that. But, based on the trend everywhere, it is one of the better ones. The comments that even the complainers are still around holds weight.
That doesn't mean that Ek is perfect, it just means that they didn't apply to the better jobs- didn't get called to the better jobs...or ,as I think- they couldn't find that elusive better job because it doesn't exist.

MTOW
 

(You may not be aware that the jump seat for the missus, even when you're the operating pilot, is simply out of the question, with no exceptions.)

Is this done in any airline?

To all the blokes whinging, no good posting your problems here as pprune will not get you another job. Better to get that job where the grass is definitely greener and come back with some positive posts. You can't have it all ie. tax free pay, housing, education, P Fund, wide body aircraft etc AND still whinge about this place. I have posted a few opinions of the place and so have others. Bottom line is get a piece of paper out and draw a line down the middle. On the left, pros, on the right, cons. Simple really. Does it all add up at the bottom of the sheet? If yes, stay, if no, then start getting your CVs out. Man, can this be any simpler!!!! :confused:

I understand that some people have a lot of things to complain about EK, but so I read in other forums, including things about CX. That brings me back to the original question. If EK has so many problems, then which would the ideal airline be ??

No one talks about Air Arabia so I would say they are the best place to go. I have seen alot of post about EK, Qatat, GF, but not once about Air Arabia.

flynhigh- No one talks about Air Arabia so I would say they are the best place to go. I have seen alot of post about EK, Qatat, GF, but not once about Air Arabia.
- that logic is questionable :8
Ike- thats an unanswerable question. Every airline has its problems. Every compant has its share of "screw the pilot" itis. The trick is finding the better fit and lifestyle for you. That may be totally different than the guy who posts here.
If you find this company thats all things for all pilots, let me know and I will send my resume in. Until then, I will go with what I believe is the best course of action for me based on what I know, and what is told to me by people I know. Beyond that, you may want to reread the Pprune disclaimer.
God, I feel like obi wan kenobi...trust your feelings Ike:O

:) May the force be with you !!

YAWN :bored:

Same old gang ( scum bags anywhere!), that are going on and on and on about how bad the working environment and T & Cs are at EK. And the best part is that these S Beez stay put in Dubai and don't leave EK while advising others to stay away ( ulterior motives eh!).

EK is as good or as bad as any other fast growing large corporation/company. So I guess there never is a perfect working environ anywhere.

A word of advice to all would be entrants at EK, ignore the scum bags and join the company. Let me assure you that you shall not regret this decision.

Oh and one other thing Adel Al Redha ( Executive Vice President Engineering & Operations) and Alan Stealey are doing a fine job.

:ok:

Interesting post indeed "Keep Discovering". I can tell from the last line in your message you must be in management........
Go on, print your name. Might get you a promotion.

Keep Discovering... back again.

For all that may not know this pest be warned. He is a wind=up merchant of the worst kind. Once sussed, as most of his posts give him away eventually, he reappears as unwelcome as he was before.

If you base any decision on what he has to say then you deserve everything you get.

Shake :mad:

Que sera sera......

You bet the joiners deserve everything they'll get at EK. Your futile effort to keep all the EK goodies for you & your gang will just not bear fruit.

When are you leaving EK?:p

Argggggh..............now I know who it is! It's that cheesy smeggy whatsit that was banned a while back. :}

Harry

He is also using 'EK shadow' currently haunting another thread...

Or Air Maldives:ok:

So why are you asking? If things are so bad for you where you are and think EK will be better then go and apply :ok: instead of asking the same old questions here, especialy if you don't like the answers and advice you are being given.

Remember:
We are all human.
We are all capable of making mistakes.
We only listen to what we want to listen to.

Good luck

Good and Bad Anywhere!
 

I am a parent of 4 little kids and interested in living in Dubai (and wife too). I think that if you search different life styles and other crime statistics around the world you would find yourself in a very ugly world:} !!! You have to make your life the best possible. This may help http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications.../print/ae.html is a nice way to investigate any country, and to compare too!

DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY GOOD THING TO SAY ABOUT LIVING IN DUBAI?

Been here for 12 years & I & the family love Dubai! No really! :) We grab every opportunity Dubai has to offer, & think it's magic. Sitting at home every night watching the TV, or reading PPrune 24/7 is going to drive you crazy & make you depressed no matter where you live in the world. Surely it's not always about the money? Life's short, and you can't take it with you. Only drawback is having to go to work! :yuk:

A serious word of warning. Do not believe anything that you read about Dubai in the press or any other official publication. There is a lot that happens here that is not reported and is 'hidden.' I know that this goes on elsewhere, but do not believe that Dubai is Nirvana, Utopia or however else you want your 'Heaven' to be described.

There are more murders than are reported. Source? I am close friends with a senior member of staff at the British Embassy. Although this is primarily 'in-fighting' between Russians, Pakistanis etc. the fact is that there is violent crime here, it just gets hushed up.

There are more robberies that get covered up by the authorities due to them not wanting the 'real Dubai' to get written about. Source? As above, as well as victims of two recent crimes.

Traffic is an absolute nightmare. Source? I suffer from it myself daily. Just search on the web for 'Traffic Dubai.'

Prostitution is rampant. Not even in Bangkok will you go into a bar and five girls walk up to you and ask you if you would like a F$@k. Yes, there are clean bars but there are a lot of sleazy bars. Where in the world, the Muslim world for goodness' sake, can you enter a club that is solely there for the purpose of providing prostitutes? Do a Google search on The Cyclone and York Hotel in Dubai! Of course, this might be an attraction to some of you.

Other than Beach (although they are dissapearing rapidly as beach front developments are being built) and Golf, there is little in the way of outdoor activities. Sports are not that well catered for but if you like shopping, then this is the place for you! We have more malls per square mile than anywhere I have ever been to! But careful of the prices, a lot of things here are now more expensive than the US and UK.

Just as many western civilisations were built by slaves, so is Dubai today. The general workforce here are treated appalingly, the salaries are really bad and their working and living conditions terrible.

Dubai is a relatively good place to start a family, to educate small kids, but teenagers suffer here as there is so little to do.

Look, I am not trying to dissuade anyone from coming here. I welcome with open arms other pilots in order that our work load can start to decrease, but I would be wrong in supporting Dubai as some kind of model city. The EK and Dubai PR machines are very powerful. The pages of the holiday brochures are testament to this as they show the beach hotels as they were three years ago, prior to the building of the various projects along the coast. But one thing that cannot be ignored is that despite the numbers of tourists Dubai welcomes every year, very few are coming back for a second holiday.

SecurID...Surely you are having a laugh?! "Little in the way of outdoor activities" :confused: Well only yesterday morning I rode my horse, followed by the 9 hole par 3 at the Monty. Had a sail in the afternoon. Played tennis this morning. (horse lame) Later today will waterski with the kids. Tonight more golf, followed by a desert camp tomorrow night with the trial bikes. And it's not even the weekend!! Maybe then I'll go for a snow ski, or go kitesurfing. (In fact I'm lying as I have to fly to London on Friday:yuk: ) Let's be objective and balanced here. :) As for the prostitution well the missus & I are out all the time and have never been confronted with this. Certainly not at Madinat, any of the Golf clubs, or any of hotels on the Sufouh strip. Also have to completely disagree with "very few tourists coming back for a second holiday" The vast majority do! Check with any of the Hotel GM's on this one.
Will agree though that the traffic is a nightmare, there is carnage on the roads, and that some workers do get treated very badly. :(

Fugazi,

Would you mind enlightening the dear readers on the cost of all these activities that you partake in? :bored:

Whether, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar or even Saudi. There are plenty of activities you can participate in to basicaly block yourself from the outside world. Thats what people do here to stay sane.

The drawback is that that they cost lots of money. The days of comming out here to save for retirement have well passed.

@ DesertM2005

I do like all the answers being given. I really appreciate them, as stated before. The thing is that, when I move, I want to go to a place that is substantially better then where I am. Otherwise, it will be like changing 6 for half a dozen.

I am also following forum about companies like CX; there is a lot being said about them too. It up to us to read and filter things. There is no perfect company, as there are no perfect people. EK is one of the companies I think would be nice working for. So is Cathay and Singapore. I am trying to see if there are others that I can consider and the draw backs with each of them.

I spent a good few years in Dubai and it is true there is a lot to do. All of the aforementioned and more!!

The problem is on an EK Captains salary with a couple of sprogs you will NOT be able to afford them. If you throw all care of financial responsibility for your retirement and your kids tertiary education then you can enjoy some of them. 2000 dhms a day does not go that far when you are playing golf riding horses owning a 4x4 and taking the mssus out to the al suffoh Hotels and the Madinat. Dinner will cost you 30% of your daily wage.

Get real my friend and for F£$s sake grow up:yuk:

:confused: Thank you everybody!!!