EK Upgrade issues (threads merged)
 

Anybody got any details on the management meeting with pilots reference the recent change of policy? Are Direct Entry Capatins on the way shortly? Do you think it's worth joining as an F/O now?

high & fast,this is not the place to ask such a poser.The whole site has been in hibernation for months and Ramadan is just around the corner.

B777 upgrade or DEC
 

I know this question has been around a few months, but I can't find a topic spend on it, and I would first like to have some opinions and rumours before posting it to TCAS's 'rumour buster' (which hasn't been updated for a month now.. no rumours I guess :E )

How will EK get enough Captains on the B777?

:confused:

I don't have any 'correct' numbers, only go by published lists and staff numbers, so I would ask you guys to correct me...

I reckon every B777 needs about 9 crews to operate.
We currently have (including the last 3 B777-300ER) 23 B777's

203 CPT (including 10 DEC's)
200 F/O (including guys still in training)

For the next years, we'll get 1 B777 per month, ie 12/year, ie 108 Captains needed on B777 per year.

Looking at the staff numbers for the F/O's, out of 200, 61 have been here for less then a year, 30 will be F/O for life. Consider that EVERY guy left is ok for command requirements, will complete the upgrade and no resignations, that means that the pool for suitable commands on B777 will be dry in EXACTLY 1 year from now...

Million dollar question: Where will we get the remaining Captains??

Either we allow F/O's from the Airbus sector to jump to the B777 for commands or we need (read: EK management has another excuse for) DEC's to operate these Boeings.

Would it be possible for an Airbus F/O to jump ship as F/O, thus becoming B777 F/O in order to get the command on B777? Even if they require at leat one year on type before possible command, it would be a very good alternative for guys with less then 2 years in the company, and getting a sure shot at command after 3 years in the company...

My opinion is: let the F/O's do the upgrade on whatever fleet upgrades are available on; if an external DEC without rating can do it, our quality in house F/O's, often with previous Boeing experience, can surely do it..

Comments please...:zzz:

Got to agree Mr8 ,
If the Airbus guys dont get the move or a course date on the ab3 then there will be great losses in the F/O ranks , greater than the patch up job of DECs.................

Better the devil you know and there is quite a few devils out there..... hang on does anybody report anything anymore.........

For sure EK will go for DEC, too bad for the guys who are here for less than a year, they should have read pprune it was posted a long time ago that it will take much longer than 3 years to command.
Thats what pprune is for actually, to share information.

I find it fascinating that for an airline who prides itself on attracting the cream....or so all of you keep claiming...that 15% of your F/Os are apparently career F/Os with zero command potential?

So you are now saying the EK recruitment system has been a bit of a lottery?

I know of at least one recruit starting on the 777 soonish who has vast amounts of airline jet command experience and years as a respected TRE/IRE...perhaps he'll be changing seats sooner than he had expected?

No exact numbers
 

Well, I mentioned in the topic starter that these numbers are based on staff lists and staff numbers.. These 30 F/O are all F/O's with very low staff numbers, e.i. F/O for life, or cadets which still don't meet the criteria for a command (6000hrs).
Anyhow, with or without these 30 guys, the problem remains.
As for your fellow comming over, if he signed as a F/O, he'll be stuck for at least 18 months in that right seat before being 'Fast-Tracked' into the left seat...

Also heard of a guy being offered DEC when on recruitment here. Although my source told me it was most likeliy for A330, he was not sure that is was not for A310...

MR8

EKs LOW AIRBUS VASELINE SUPPLY
 

OK so whats the situation”?

777 FOs getting upgrades and joined after us. (good luck to you boys, lucky you got the 777).

ADEL insisted that there would not be anyone disadvantaged by the upgrades programs even before the DEC’s came in.

DECs come into the frame, even though some haven’t flown bigger than a 737 and its not widebody or Airbus for those not so observant.

Oh yeah, some of the senior Fos have little chats with them (Morale boosters- CRM-Flt Safety) and they say they only came here for a A380 rating. WHAT?

Rumour buster, more like Morale Blaster,total waste of time and only shows what little backbone any of the high paid help have to stand up to moral issues.

Transition Upgrades. For those on the bus does that mean to leave the airline to go back to our old airline in our old jobs as captains (again) to get our dignity back?

Off to the pharmacy to get more vaseline as the shafting is well beyond the current supply forecast.

CW

Think about also the 70 or so B777 rated pilots Etihad require this year alone. I say Rated but that will be difficult to find. They will therefore pull out of the same pot as EK. At the end of it all we are all mercenaries. Who ever will pay the most will get the pilots.

As far as Boeing guys leaping ahead of Airbus guys in the command stakes. You have short memories. Airbus guys were doing the very same to the Boeing guys a couple of years ago, just after they did away with the Transition upgrade. In one or two years the reverse will happen again as the A380 arrives and they need the bodies there.

:confused:

For those who want to join any middle east airline (and not just EK) had better realise from the beginning that, once the employment contract is signed and dated...what you see is what you get, be it F/O or Command straight away.
Upgrades are at the pleasure of the respective company, regardless of past experience.

Like it or lump it, makes no difference.

Always has been, always will be, no matter what is promised afterwards.
And, as many have found out to their dismay, the 'goal posts' are a movin' constantly...also again at the companies pleasure.

Anyone dis-agree?

Don't like it...go elsewhere (after training, of course).:E

If Emirates continues to hire DECs, the first officer ranks will drain. It will cost double compared to honoring the seniority list.

We as a pilot group have got to get the word out that the DECs are not welcome at EK. I know I have said it before but when the word goes out and we back it up with our actions I guarentee that the applications for DECs will dry up and this will only help the FOs cause.

LHR Rain,
I am not in favour of DECs being employed by the company because I think we have a smashing lot of very capable F/Os who should be upgraded instead.
But following your post regarding local F/Os in the other thread (pilot shortage) I dread to think of the day when your upgrade comes up. Last thing this company needs is someone like you in the left seat.
I fly with the local F/os all the time - a very professional group of people overall, with the odd exception perhaps.
Your comments were out of line, especially since the locals were getting shafted as much as anybody else. (past tense because as far as I know no more DECs are being employed)

EKwife
I don't know where you come from that makes you think that Dubai and EK is so great but wake up! Half the actions that EK employes would be illegal in the first world. If you compare Europe to the middle east it does not even stack up and any attempt to do so only ridicules your intelligence. If EK is so great than why have so many pilots left and the applications dried up? It might be good for you but don't compare me and my country to your third world mentality. By the way the FOs stopped coming when the DECs were announced, not because of my or anyone elses comments. Get it straight.

PICU
I don't disagree with you but my question was why are there so many ex-pats in the middle east and hardly any arabs in Europe? There has to be a reason and I am curious what your reason might be. I have mine and I am sure that you have yours.

EK Wife

So I like to look at myself in the mirror and that is the reason for me not being captain? I finally have figured out why I am jerking gear for captains instead of being one. I look too much in the mirror. I just told my girlfriend to take all of our mirrors out of our apartment and I am anxioulsy awaiting my command interview phone call. It should come today and I can't wait!
I can whinge about Dubai and EK just as much as you are allowed to brag about the same. What makes you think that you are right and I am wrong? The same goes for me. I don't know if I am right or not but I do know that a lot of the stuff EK pulls (contract changes, factoring, approvals on the leaves, flight hours, etc etc) would never be tolerated in Europe or any developed country. You can tell the would be applicates about how great you think this place is and I will tell all about what EK does not tell the interviewee in the process and if I am wrong please let us know. You have the same rights that I and everyone else has in the world.
Everyone I know at EK is at the very least dissapointed in the recent changes involving EK. Some have put out CVs and some have even taken the drastic step of leaving which is no small measure to be taken lightly.
By the way I don't have a maid or a gardner. I imagine that where you come from you would have to pay taxes and a real wage to have your luxories here in the sand so enjoy this little bit of heaven you have. Did you give the hired help the raise you talked about?
I guess when I get taller I can have my command. Now I am going to hang from door way to strech myself.

So Funny what would an EK Wife no about how ****** up a job it is , and if you are an F/o with kids you probably cant afford a maid.
The best thing is the man can cancel his wifes visa without reason here so you can be sent home on a moments notice.....:ouch:

Having read this thread i have to say that EKwife is talking sense, we do need the F/O's to file the ranks, it's where they come from bothers me!

This airline has potential to be a great airline and all it needs is for the "management" to pull their overpaid, over bonused heads out of the sand and start to use the the talented in house work force we have.

As we all know there is a wealth of experience sitting in the right seats of our aircfaft, my message to the "management" is........

"WAKE UP SMELL THE COFFEE" and "BLOODY WELL USE IT".

I think you are right we need lots more great F/Os but they are worried . I have a friend offered a job here he went to Qatar instead , as a captain mind you. Also heard Qatar may look at Ek F/os who may be able to go in as Decs , but you have to resign first ,call them.
At least they r trying to do the right thing over at Qr knowing they have many A/C to crew.....
With the known orders on the 777 the list of commands should be out at least 1 year ahead of time including transitions...
For EK to save a few pennies now on training they will pay a large penalty in the long term............! look out....

I think one of the best recruiting tools EK has is the word of mouth from those employed here. It was not that long ago that never a bad word about this company was posted here. Those were the times of huge amounts of applications for the job.
Well I think the fellas are still telling their mates that are interested in joining, all about the company. It is not our fault that the information is not as good as it once was. I am sure if things start to improve here the applicates will return.
So even though it might be in your own short term interest to polish up the package here to get other suckers in, I am not sure it will help for the longer term. But it will cause a even lower moral in the company, as these new joiners find out what it is really like.
So EKwife, I am not too sure I do like your tactic of only telling the rosey picture to ensure the upgrade of EKhusband. Seems very selfish really. Instead I think we should just stay with the facts. For some the bad bits of the package over here outway the good bits, for others its the other way around. Just stay with the facts and let people make an informed decision.

Don

The more potential FOs LHRrain scares away with his personal views, the more EK has to paid to change their minds again...

Point being that, that with all these new aircraft coming over the next few years, drivers will have to come from somewhere. EK now has to share with the other Gulf airlines.

Either you look for DEC and 2000 Hr FOs or 8000 Hr FOs with command potential. DECs and old FOs is an explosive combination.

Expats will follow the money trail. If the T&Cs are better in Togo tomorrow, thats where people will go. We are the corporate mercenaries. And so what....

I have been an expat for 20 years, all around the world. The key is not to compare. Dubai is not Europe, and Europe is not Dubai. Find your peace or find another airline, because here you cant influence the conditions.

most pilots are no fools, they wouldn't let themselves be put off by stupid comments on these sites.
they will consider them but they can certainly filter out the bias. so put down whatever you like.
i am only astounded by some double standards displayed. EK's way of treating people is bashed, but the same
guys display a shameful attitude regarding others, like locals and now women. DEC's are discredited,
even to the point of threatening with "actions", but the same guys loathe QR for apparently luring
EK FO's as DEC's.
state your oppinion, but remain consistent, values should be the same for everyone and everywhere.
it boosts your credibility and will certainly make your upgrade a bit easier on you.

EkDECwife, of course you're happy here your husband hasn't been shafted by a set of stupid rules like a lot of the FO's here.

If I were you I wouldn't get too involved with the upgrade issues given your personal circumstances:hmm:

DEC's
 

As usual things tend to get too personal. We all have our point of view. Dubai is not Eden but it's not the worst place on earth either. Regarding DEC's. Pro's and cons. I totally disagree with the principle of DEC's but for colleagues to propose action"against these guys is childish. They are not the problem. Who created the problem? Not the DEC's.
What we need to do is get on with our jobs in the professional, safe manner in which we are accustomed to doing it. The numbers game will sort itself out in due course. The reality is there are a busload of aircraft coming, so who is going to fly them? Even giving every F/O eligible in the company their upgrade, we are still going to fall short. As mentioned in previous posts, we are not the only airline in the area scratching for pilots. Competition is mounting, as is the pressure on certain elements in the airline to find ENOUGH, suitably qualified pilots to fly these aircraft - tough job in the current climate, irrespective of what we are told. (25 applicants a day etc etc).
I have no doubt cross fleet upgrades will follow in due course, as will another package review. Want pilots - must pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the meantime, all F/O's keep preparing for those upgrades, keep playing golf, having coffee mornings at Lime Tree, nights out at Longs or whatever else it is you do for fun. Life might be frustrating, but hey guys, I once heard about a guy who whenever he was depressed bought a bottle of Jack Daniels, 2 Havana cigars and would go sit in a graveyard. He would drink the Jack, smoke the cigars then look around and say - WELL, compared to these guys around me I aint doing too bad!
Puts things in perspective a little bit huh?
Watch this space
Keep discovering.....................................

Talking about "actions" to scare off DECs is a bad road to go down. It was probably said after a beer or three and/or a really bad day at the office and then forgotten.


Interesting listening to the lecture from the wife of a guy who has rolled up in the last few months, a year maximum and went -

Straight to LHS
Straight to higher payscale than some existing capts
Straight to villa, kids or not
And in some cases did not even have the widebody or currency on most recent type which was a "requirement".

Great if it's you, well done, congrats. Not so great if you're waiting for your upgrade. You seem to not care that these things YOU take for granted are, after years here, a little more important to FOs.

The wife seems to be coming from sort sort of fantasy land:

-"FOs stop coming due to the whinging, so they will hire more DECs"? To do what, become FOs?

If FOs stop coming, they will improve the conditions to attract them. It is a simple matter of supply/demand. How can I put it any simpler? Why do you think the engineers have not had a pay-rise this year?

Please try to use common sense if you're going to talk down to people who have been here for years, lest you be held in the same regard as Dumpvalve, another infamous "ekwife".

Unless that's you, Dumpvalve, having some fun with a new name???

Some wise words there by the wife. The time would come a lot quicker without DECs if EK removed their self-imposed promotion criteria shackles.Sounds like nothing's changed then, hey? I guess we look out for ourselves.

My suggestion:

Go introduce yourself to Dumpvalve, if that isn't you anyway, and have regular meetings in Jumeirah to discuss watering the jingly const workers or whatever. Try to avoid the temptation to dispense advice here to people who resent, not you and your husband, but the situation that led to the presence of DECs when they are not truly necessary.

EKwife,

Lets see, you are still in the 12 to 18 month honeymoon period here. You have never had to try and survive on an FOs salary here. You have never had to try and survive on the junior Captains salary here. You think its a great place. Fantastic. I am very happy that the decision to move here has worked out so well. But I would like you to consider that for others things may not be so rosey for a whole bunch of other issues, a search of this site will explain. And these will be the issues that effect a new joining FO.

As others have said, its not all bad here. But, this is just another job. It is not up to us to try and sugar coat some of the decisions that have been made recently. In fact, I think it is of some help that guys are fully aware of what is happening before they arrive, this might help kerb the no-shows for courses etc.
If you look at the forums you will see that a pretty good balance can be seen, from the good to the bad . This is the way it should be, let the new joiners see all this and decide if its right for them.

Don.

EK Wife

For your information a very large proportion of EK's FO's were Captains in previous companies - many, like myself, were lured here by the absolute assertion at interview that we qualified for accelerated commands and the companies stated intent not to hire DEC's (because it could be so divisive said the recruiter) - guess what..

I turned up to be told on day one that the rules had changed and moving back to the LHS would now take a minimum of three years (possibly considerably longer for those on the Airbus fleet). Less than six months after arriving I saw the first DEC's turn up - whilst I don't have a single gripe with the individuals who take up the opportunity, I, like many others, have a serious and well founded gripe with a company that, in one smooth move, tells me I'm no longer able to upgrade when they said I could and then recruits DEC's (which is after all the cheaper option) because of a self generated shortage. Whether the company, or you, will admit it, every DEC that turns up is pushing all the FO's commands further downstream.

I'm glad that for you the move has been a successful one, for me, and many others it hasn't. I chose to leave a job at home with a good salary and pension based on the premise that the company would honour the commitments it made when I was interviewed - it hasn't. As a result I've had a very lean couple of years here and very much regret the decision to come here.

I'm not often moved enough to bother posting but I do think you need to be aware of the implications of some company actions and also the very real offence you may cause if you continue to take the 'I'm alright jack' line.

Not much difference between the DEC concept and the Accelerated concept, Sanddancer.

FOs with thousands of hours on jets are still being leap-frogged over by guys who turned up later on. It's just that the accelerated program has been around longer and become part of the scenery. Why should the "Accelerateds" be any less dvisive, in theory?

Funny (not) how people tend to over-look that.

Is the FO qualified to undertake command training or not? After so many years elsewhere why should the extra 18 months make all the difference?

EK Wife

Good for you and your husband. You must feel good that you got such a great job by taking mine.

EKWife

Have you really been a captain or FO, I doubt it.

Most of us probably do say what we print to peoples faces, bit of an assumption on your part there eh?


Quote "I'm sorry if I upset you but I still don't agree with saying things (some very twisted versions of the truth sometimes) anonymously on an open forum."

Fine, don't post then, by the way how do you know the truth has been twisted?


EK wife, in the nicest way, I would just drop it.

:ok:

Kunn Dize this must be your worst nightmare another "mere" female daring to write on pprune. As someone stated on a previous thread when you were bragging about getting a hostie into trouble" you sound like such a moron" I couldn't agree more. What's the matter dear, have a problem with woman in general or has your wife left you and gone home and now you are blaming it on Dubai instead of taking a serious look at your own attitude.

When you make silly comments like you find it very amusing that one of the wives dare to mention "we" when discussing her husband and the Emirates, well it is a case of "we." We were part of the team that packed up and left family and friends and came out to the unknown with our husbands, we are part of the team that has to deal with our husbands coming home totally exhausted from flying his butt off, we are part of the team that has to keep the good humour going, when the hubby is totally deflated after getting a whopping 8% increase when the company is making a $#@%load of profit. We are part of the team that has to go out and get a part time job to keep our families head above water and still be available to take the kids to and from school, sports, parties etc etc, we are part of the team that has to try and keep the husbands morale up at times like this - so yes we wives do have a right to class ourselves as "we"

Why all the interest in the Emirates anyway? You are after all a "businessman?" so the wives have more right to comment on this thread than you.

DQ: I agree with you completely re the importance of family support without which life here would have been impossible for me at least.

To try and get back to the subject you also highlight some issues that any prospective employee should know:


It was points like these that ekwife seemed to be objecting to and inferred should be 'kept quiet' so that the rest of us would 'benefit' by proliferating the myth that EK is anything other than what it really is in order to attract people to join. I think that this is the most objectional aspect to the posts and points more to their particular motivation other than I hope many others.

Girls, please! You are welcome here (the Pilots Ru Network), but we are starting to see you biting at crazy cr@p that only lowers the forum and as you can see we end up off the thread. Why not start a "we" thread and have a boys vs girls slagging match in there. No not a bad day but I come on the computer for a break (if you know what I mean)?

Critical Winge - try not to sound so patronising please

WELL WRITTEN AND SAID MENSA YOU THE BOY .:ok:

Yeah that's true, Trimotor, but the 3 year guy has missed 18 months of higher salary (which as we have seen here makes a big difference) and 18 months of command time in the logbook which for some is also pretty important if they want to move on one day, given that not everyone is as happy here as ekdecwife/ekdechusband.

18 months... who knows how many hours that is at 150 a month times X months for some of the time, plus X months times the normal limit the rest of the time, allowing for holidays, etc, etc.

Try not to disparage the motivations of the guys who are (almost) at the bottom of the food chain, the FOs without significant command time. Maybe it DOES stress them. But I'm glad things have worked out for you.

FOs who are promoted will also be senior to the DECs so maybe it isn't so bad after all, hey?

Yeah I know and I think most of the guys recognise that and do not aim their disgruntlement at the DECs, but at the policy-makers.

Unfortunately ekdecwife hasn't helped their cause, but who knows.... maybe she's posting illicitly without hubby's permission!!!

Careful ekdecwife, hubbys here have special means to instill discipline amongst their wives not normally allowed back home!

Rumours??? The last one I heard was another pay-rise. What gives, TM? Spill.....

Trimotor,

You have good points. I am a two yr and 10 mth 330 FO who is looking at a very long time to command and not because of my viewpoints. Numerous FOs ahead of me are already delayed and some at this point have been here 3.6 years and still waiting. The FOs ahead of me need to be captain and the 65 or so DECs on the Airbus did in effect take those FOs and mine commands. I don't know who is to blame but the facts are that we are still FOs (through no fault of ours) and they are here as captains and all the benifits that go will it.
Trimotor I guess I do have a bigger problem with the rule changes regarding upgrade and transition upgrade than with the DEC themselves. I did apply to go to the 777 for various reasons not the least of which would be quicker command but was of course turned down only to see very marginal DECs hired to go ahead of me and others.
The bigger issue here is the la la land that the DECs and others live in. How can they possibly know how hard it is to get by in Dubai with the low salary and rising inflation then have the gull to tell me not to say anything bad about Ek and Dubai even if it is the truth?

[QUOTE]I-FORD

As a future young pensioner, I'm looking at the ME as a potential area where to spend my last years as a pilot.
The fact that DECs are not welcomed by FOs in EK will not deter me as long as I'm welcomed by EK's management.
In the airline currently employing me the attitude shown by some of the posters in this thread, would prevent them to be upgraded captain.
And that is in a european airline where crews have all the rigths and union protection you can imagine.
I'm sure most of EK FOs are different from those posters, otherways the reason for EK looking for DECs instead of promoting from inside would be pretty obvious.


Hey man,

I hope you are kidding.

Visto che sei un CPT Az vedo che posso fare per farti cambiare idea.....


Cheers
AZDRIVER

It is fair to say that some people here at ek are happy, but the some are a very small minority, and ones perception of ek is very dependent upon personal circumstances. Ek housewife is probably quite happy given that, if as she says is true her husband joined as a DEC. Recall that when ek advertised for DECs there were few takers, thus they had to offer higher pay scales than existing captains. Thus a DEC is on a higher wage than existing captains, let alone FOs. Most DECs are older, most have kids that have left home and are no longer dependent, or at the very least are old enough to qualify for subsidised schooling (EK no longer pay for kids under 4), have houses that are payed for and so on.

By contrast take a new joining FO with a wife and one or two young kids, which is the demographic profile of the majority of new joiners, he will be lucky if he comes out even each month. If he has commitments back home he is likely to go backwards financially. These are not first timers, they are experienced FOs who have lots of heavy, long haul time, or have held commands on narrow body, and in some cases wide body types. ek NEEDs this experience but refuse to pay the going rate, which is about 50% more than whats on offer now. This is why we are seeing a high number of no shows on many courses of late. When people sit down and examine the package in detail they see it for the joke it is.

NO doubt many airlines have screwed there pilots big time over the past few years, partly because they needed to, but partly because they could. They have abused the recent economic circumstances and introduced non sustainable, and unrealistic degradation in pay, allowances, hotel conditions, schooling, accommodation, ext ext ext. However it has now caught up with them and as managers at EK bask in the glory of recent financial success, its now time to pay the piper.

allaru, well said, another great post. The thread is turning into a real truth story about EK today and you and mesaboy speak the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Nice one.:ok: