nah... not worth the bad karma. Besides he might recognise himself and feel hurt. :{

I don't have a problem with Americans and find the yank-bashing here a little off-putting. Let's switch to the kiwis, shall we? They're used to it.:ok:

I'm sure the majority of DECs are nice guys and not at all weird. Just like the majority of Accelerated Command FOs are nice guys and not
d!ckheads, despite their willingness to queue-jump.

Hi Muttley Crew,

You have a strong belief in yourself that you are funny and show wit in many of your postings – The sad thing is you’re not very funny or witty. That’s just my opinion of course.

Go ahead and Kiwi bash if you like; whatever spins your wheel! Quite unusual how some of you always have to hunt in a pack, like wolves really!

Regards,

Kiwi.

On the other hand, why stifle "intelligent" discussion?

Essentially he was an argumentative, nit-picking fcuk who was hung up on things the other guys generally wouldn't give a toss about.

FOs love being micro-managed and berated.

411A and Yanks @EK
 

411A I'm going to have to call your bluff. Fact is buddy, I know who you are, despite the fact that you wouldn't remember me.

The early Yanks who came to EK were type rated on the 727 (Al W, Bill S) or the Airbus (Bill B, OM, JB etc). Back then in the era of principled management (sort of:rolleyes: ) EK only hired DECs with experience on type.

You as a SV Tristar driver wouldn't have qualified, hence the move further East later on I guess.

The only Yank who was a pain, was BW. Who as mentioned, did a runner. Rumour was he went to FedEx on a Subic base, but never confirmed that.

I flew with some of the above mentioned as a FO. Good guys all (except BW) and I learned a lot from them. The current crop of Yank DECs I can't comment on, not having to share a flight deck with them. Never met the talking horse and don't know the Capt. America.

In his true fashion, BW was to run the Subic Operation -according to him.
My info is that he went to Kallitta.


"The only Yank who was a pain, was BW. Who as mentioned, did a runner. Rumour was he went to FedEx on a Subic base, "

Crew Resource Management
 

The common theme here would make an excellent example for a CRM course.
Everyone seems to be bitching about status,pay and Nationality issues.All these issues are not condusive with the job in hand.
When professionals start to compare with fellow co-workers they cease to become professionals.

Avation Doc,

What would make good conversation at a CRM course is the post mortem of the incident / accident that Emirates will have with the current 'head in the sand' attitude that is being exhibited by management. The holes in the swiss cheese are lining up and no one is listening. There will be so many shouting 'We Told You So!!'

And for the record, 411A has never been offered a job at Emirates. He never flew any of the required types that EK were looking for. Sorry 411A, you have been ousted as a liar, which in this part of the world is not a good thing to be called at all. But then with your extensive experience in the Middle East, you'd know that, wouldn't you?

L1011,

Era of principled management? The way things are going that could be described as just two years ago!!

Although I appreciate that the f/os are pissed off at their treatment, I'm afraid the list of things you mentioned are not all exclusive to middleeast longhaul pilots. the type of ops you do is not that big a deal and the skills are not exclusively manifest in EK f/os, previous commanders or not..Its a weak arguement. Simialr to the one that assumes all turbo prop pilots will struggle in jets, and so have to go thru a pathetic right of passage for a jet rating.protectionism wrapped up in elitism.
We have etops,rvsm (big deal to both),ULH we dont do but I'm sure its a combination of teh first three with an extra bod ( or maybe not knowing EK). I make many long haul flights in my 800, have flown in regions from the first to the fourth world and would apply my professionalism to achieve the same in a bigger aircraft.The last aircraft i flew was smaller than this one , and so it goes. The point of this rant? Dont expect sympathy or solidarity for your plight at EK if your tactic is to be so arrogant to assume that the right seat at ek is prerequisite for career advancement, and the font of all aviation skill.
Look around you on your right seat colleagues I can assure you they are not the chosen few. Three years at EK does not substitute for years of experiences, just because it wasnt at EK.

Now try and reason back rather than playing the did i fail card , because the answer is NO. In the three years since my f/o iview the comapny has changed, if they were to offer me a capts job, my decision would not be based on whether I felt adequate enough to hold my own amongst ek f/os.I know enough of them not to be intimdated by their rote knowledge of ops. As well as the experienced guys getting shafted there are many who are on thier first real airline job (ie not a third world con shop), got some knowledge and think everyone else must be inferior. Flat earth mentality. You signed the contract not the rest of the flying community.:ok:

Flame on

>>Three years at EK does not substitute for years of experiences, just because it wasnt at EK.<<

Sadly, you can't tell that to the folks in the RHS at EK, bushbolox, simply because they have fallen for the sales pitch....their beaks appear to be well above ground effect.:ugh:

L1011

I think you will find that 411A after SV did not go East as he claims to have been a B707 DEC with SQ in the Mid 70's. I guess if this is so then he left SQ to join SV on the B707 and then got rated on the Tristar at SV. This would make him at least 65 by now!! My guess after SV is that he entered the Agency world for employment. He now claims to be a Captain on Tristars with Air Universal in Jordan.What an end to an illustrious career.

Yes he certainly was not offered a B727 DEC at EK in the early days as you had to be rated and experienced on type as I also tried but not being B727 type rated they were not interested.

Millers, Strange isn't it that the man himself has totally ignored our posts :\

Actually he did move East, not to SQ but another Tristar operation where he ended his days. Met him more than once in bars around the Far East, he was a likeable old geezer. Full of shyte, but entertaining. Just likes to wind up the EK boys I reckon. Sad he tried to stretch the truth, aviation is SUCH a small world, one always gets caught out.:ooh:

Quite wide of the mark, millerscourt, and I certainly never applied for any B727 posting...far too small an aeroplane.:}

I'm quite surprised that you even considered.

Sounds like you've been rumbled 411A.... :{

Good to see you adopt the "deny, deny, deny" strategy, it always works with the missus!:ok:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! :) :)

This is the best result on this site ever! 411A, you are bloody liar matey!!! :} :} :} :} :}

411a In those days I was then a mere B737 Captain although I had been on the B707 320-C for 4 years but no longer current. As you are neither B727 or Airbus rated as others have said there was no way that you had ever been offered a DEC at EK in those early days.Why would you have even wanted to consider EK in those early days with a route structure just around the Gulf and Indian sub continent? Far too dull for a Tristar Captain of your calibre and experience surely??.

>>...there was no way that you had ever been offered a DEC at EK in those early days.<<
You are quite mistaken, millerscourt.
'Round about 1987 or so, EK ran a full page advert in Flight International requesting applications from 'experienced wide-body Captains' and no aircraft type was specified.
I applied, further correspondence followed, and a preliminary offer was presented.
Two others at SV that I know of applied, one accepted, one declined as did I.
Simple as that.
Look thru your old copies of Flight and you will clearly see the advert, run in two successive issues, as I recall.
EK's route structure at the time was limited, the salary was lower, and I was quite senior at SV.

Hunt him down boys... :}

Just looked back through the old copies, from Jan 1985 to Dec 1989. No such advert. :hmm:

Well in all fairness what he said is true as I remember.Plus I did have a conversation about working at EK with one of their 727 guys back in the late 80's and as I recall what 411a said is pretty close.:ugh:

You remember well, filejw, the information about EK was rather well known in the mid-east at the time, and quite a few guys had a look, as in 1986, SV decided that they were 'overmanned' in the flight crew department, so started selectively not renewing contracts.
This, combined with the GOSI program cancellation previously, resulted in quite a few SV guys looking elsewhere.
Didn't last all that long, as SV had to begin hiring about a year or two later.

I'm not totally surprised that the present EK guys would have no particular knowledge of this...they might well have been just out of short pants at the time.:}

Whether there was an advert or not in 86/87 does not alter the fact that you had to be rated on either the B727 or A300/310 to get a look in at EK as a DEC. 411A is neither. His colleague who he says took a position there was clearly A300 Rated. That is the difference. QED

Nope, your QED is just slightly misplaced once again, millerscourt.
One was rated on the A300-600 (SV had eleven at the time), the other was not, so far as I know.
Fact is, they were looking at quite a few Captains with wide-body heavy jet experience, but not rated at the time.
A small window of opportunity, shortlived I expect, but nonetheless, present.

That you were turned down has no bearing on the matter.
SV did the same, and trained a lot, directly into the respective widebody aircraft, as the fleet needs dictated.

By the way, I never did fly the B707 at SV, joined directly onto the L10.
As a line Captain.
I had the very necessary four engine heavy jet experience, as did many others at the time. Training wasn't bad either, lots of shouting in the sim, but most (but certainly not all) got through.

I can't help but think that EK might well have been served with the very same idea.
Less bitching and moaning might well have resulted, with a BIG training bond to go along with the program.
In doing so, many of the 'problems' that EK faces now could well have been avoided.
More pay would have helped as well, as it was just slightly low.
I wonder if wide-body training was offered to the B727 guys at the time?:}

Who cares what you flew Mr. 411A.....

The fact is, you've been busted bullshiitting on this forum. I admire your efforts to deny the truth but eventually even you will be overwhelmed. Why not bow out gracefully?

By the way, I really enjoy your not-so-subtle jibes and attempts to remain relevant in this modern era. I would be very disappointed if you were to disappear forever.

Your ramblings provide a visible backdrop against which to value the input of rational posts made herein.

Just to set the record straight. EK did advertise (more than once) for non typre-rated pilots. BUT those hired as DECs were all rated on either the 727 or the A-306/310. Only the FOs were non-rated.

Have to agree with Muttley. 411A is very entertaining, not to mention persistent. I would hate to lose his EK baiting, it works so well:cool:

You've been outed old buddy. But, don't worry, people will forget.
Go up to Oak Creek canyon and do some trout fishing for a while. When the weather cools down in AZ you can resume your favourite sport.

See the post above, Muttley, even others agree that the adverts appeared as I described.
Surprised are you?

I never mentioned I was hired, old boy, just received an offer, which I declined.

I'm affraid you have an overactive imagination.
Don't worry, not going away, I just like to remind those at EK now that the mid-east hasn't changed very much...except perhaps for the local prices.
Even the old days at SV weren't bad at all.
You might be surprised to learn that many banked their entire SV monthly salary, and paid their local expenses just from the per-diem.
Combine that with the opportunity to travel anywhere on the system FOC once a month (with the days off guaranteed, according to their schedule) made for quite a good deal.

DEC's
 

Speaking of DEC's, a freind of mine just got hired at EK,DEC 777. Coming from an A310, not a bad move:E

A friend in EK with closer to 4 years than 3 years service with EK , and more than 10k jet hours ,no command , but still , was told we are only recruiting on 777 still many dec's to come sorry.
He was on his way to resign but had hoped for a small glimmer of hope.

Nahh.... not really. Very little surprises me after living in this place a few years.

Actually I've lost track of who's said what about working where. I'll side with YOU for the time being, if it makes things a little livelier around here. :ok:

Undoubtedly the Emirates First Officers will have the flags out to celebrate your friend's arrival and will be keen to congratulate him on his good fortune.

On a related subject this quote from The Business Lounge column in Fridays' 7DAYS paper.

"Good companies know their second most important audience is their workforce, abuse them at your peril"

The context being the way that companies conduct business in Dubai. The article was slanted towards listing large local companies that tend towards following this advice. It was a list of one and the name was not Emirates.

Theidler, didn't mean to slag the f/o's at EK. I read alot about their plight here and wonder why EK does what it does to f/o's. Saving money? Experience level? Lack of f/o's to fill the void created by upgrades? Not enough sim time available or instructors to instruct?Being on the Airbus or Boeing fleet, cross-training costs?:confused:

Apparently over the last three years Emirates has discovered that it is quicker and cheaper to recruit and train a DEC than to upgrade a First Officer and then recruit and train his replacement.

It seems that they are employing as many DEC's as they can and Emirates First Officers will only be upgraded to cover any shortfall in DEC's.

I'm told that Emirates has a history of being reactive to crew shortfalls partly because they don't factor in wastage such as resignations into their forecasts.

It maybe that the accountants encourage this as the total flight crew salary bill is reflected in the minimal numbers of flight crew doing the job. Just as long as the flights still go.

With a lot of crew operating at the 900 hr/annum level the 'talking horse' is reported to have said that the GCAA are being lobbied (frantically?) to raise this limit.

Undoubtedly a breeding ground for discontent and variable standards.

Current upgrade time - EK
 

Just wondering how long to upgrade from fo to capt? Is it close to the 3 year mark?

With who UPS?

:Puff ... don't be obtuse he obviously means in the Middle East :} , being a Yank he I bet he thinks it's a country

With Emirates?

As with all airlines it depends on experience.....and ability

Dont join a Emirates expecting an upgrade within a certain time period as it will change..

Try the SEARCH function????

Very nasty 145 - chill bro - you got something against the Yanks? 4HP

typical...

typical upsguy? - yes; you too; no punctuation & you post a question without identifying the airline you're on about, expecting the rest of us to know which one of the Middle East airlines you're referring to. Typical.

Group hug please; there's too much aggro around at the mo - take it easy folks. 4HP

It depends. Min time is 3yrs if you have 6000hrs. It can be reduced to 18months if you have 8000hrs and 2000hrs command on something with jet motors that weighs in at more than 55000kg.

At the moment EK have somewhere between 1550 to 1600 pilots. So somewhere between 700 to 800 FOs who will have to upgrade before you. The papers say EK have around 90 to 95 aeroplanes now, and I have seen estimates of between 130 to 150 aircraft by 2012. We crew at between 6 to 10 crews to aeroplane (10 to those that fly a long way with multi crew on board, 6 for the others). So taking that we have 90 aircraft now, and lets say the upper figure of 150 by 2012, that 60 new aircraft, to make it easy lets say 10 crew per aeroplane, thats 600 new captains. Some of these are going to be DECs as EK are still hiring them, and will continue to do so.

EK has a lot of aircraft on order. Some are to expand the fleet, some are to replace the 772s, 332, 343.

It must also be noted that I will have no idea what next months roster will be like till the very end of this month, so all guesses taken about what will happen in the future are just purely guesses.

Don

hey don,
thanks for the info, it was very helpful.

upsguy

Hey 4hp,
In the original post there is bold print at the top that says" current upgrade time-EK". Where did that come from? Was it typed by upsguy to start the thread? And if it was in fact typed by upsguy, did he not then indentify the airline to which he was refering? These boys in Dubitown need their wives to return pronto. The summer doldrums are getting dangerous.
I see that 145qrh has taken the opportunity to bash the "yanks". I wonder which far superior place he hails from. Obviously his kind has added great advances to mankind, probably invented aviation, definately invented sarcasim, and are far superior in their knowledge of world geography. Of course those of us who ALSO think we know a little bit about geography think that a "yank" is someone from the north! But maybe that would fall into the area of "local knowledge". Tell us 145qrs which far superior place do you come from?
And upsguy, don's information is spot on.
Love to all,
330 man