EKs expansion has been ongoing for several years. If they were planning 100, then 150 and now over 200 aircraft where then were the plans to support it? Over the same period the training system lost trainers who resigned whilst others lost thier jobs due to 'surplus requirements'. How then was the expansion going to cope with the need for eventually 2000+ pilots if it was not geared for the recruitment and training of the numbers needed? Either the plan was always to resort to DECs (thus the job was misrepresented in recruitment and at interview) or the training system has been and continues to be completely mismanaged.

There is no doubt in my mind that the need for DECs could have been mitigated by much better long term management. Even now there is a chance to review the situation and construct a longer term plan to achieve the projected expansion before it falls disasterously off of the rails.

We need to: Recruit longer term F/Os with less experience who want to gain wide-body, long haul experience and review the current command criteria to maximise those who are capable of command from within. Reconsider transition courses to put pilots where they are needed and use the flex left to upgrade more F/Os. Then and only then consider DECs as a last resort to make up the short fall.

SOP
 

I seem to remember being told during training:

If you have a problem use all available resources to remedy the situation

Problem: Not enough pilots

Solution: Use the ones you've got for upgrade (who cares what type its on, these days one big jet is very much like another big jet!),this will lead to an increase of morale all round, people will think better of EK and more people will view it as a good prospect for a career and hence more people will apply.

How's that for logic - now I will watch as somebody tells me it is a useless idea!!

:D

PS to add some icing give everyone 10 days off a month minimum and give better allowances down route (rather than cutting allowances). Everyone will be more rested and I am sure that the cabin crew especially having extra days off will want to go to work to get the allowances, hence less sick days and less congestion at the clinic, and more crew wanting to go to work!!

:D

ekwife: It was the other stuff that caused such a reaction. You put the me into mercenary

Mini cooper,

Absolutely correct, your suggestions are exactly what should done.:ok:

You still don't get it do you. EK are NOT recruiting your mates who could do with the job but advertising for 'experienced' crews with the promise (inferred and broken) of upgrades. When they do change the criteria your posts may become relevant. Until then the posts you criticise generally warn those who are seeking a career progression that EK has turned out for some a career regression, your hubby excluded ofcourse.

LHR Rain

The guyes on the A330 upgrade course today, have been here 3 years and 4 months. How many pilots can there be between you and them? I think there will be 2 more upgrade courses this year. Better start studying ;)

Lady when will you get it? You have absoultely no clue about the aviation industry. If you want qualified FOs with a real training background they are not going to come because of what you and your husband did here at EK. Why would any qualified and talented pilot come here and have to spin their wheels and in a sense go backwards on the seniority list while they watch marginal DECs come and take their seats? I don't know if your husband is qualifed or not but if he fits the DEC profile he never flew a widebody and never flew outside of Europe but your situation may differ. Every DEC I flew with meets the critera metioned above.

How would you feel Ek Wife if your husband had the DEC requirement and had been here 2 years or so still an f/o after being promised a fasttrack .
After reporting the incompetence of some of these individuals it would appear my command is some 4-5 years from doj so i was told , and im not allowed to fly the 777, then somebody such as your husband comes here and gets an instant command while im rotting in the right seat , i have friends on the 777 who are fastracking in 18 months who started before me, why should i be happy?:mad:

I sympathise with the F/O's at EK, but don't believe any of you should berate EKWIFE for her opinions. What would you do in the same circumstances, for her and her husband??? Say no, sorry I can't come in as a DEC, coz I might upset a few people? Lets get real. No-one in his right mind would do that, if you were offered it. You or I would do exactly the same thing. To me, hats off to them, they were lucky, and there at the right time, and I'm sure, not the only ones. Fact is, too many aeroplanes, and not enough pilots, and it's going to get worse, as the new aircraft arrive.You,( EK ),need Capt's, RIGHT NOW!!!!!!. Takes too long to train qualified F/O's. Management says, ' Recruit DEC's, ( it's cheaper), Done job. It's not right, we all know it, but as you ' keep discovering', the goal-posts move all the time. In all honesty, are any airlines , really that different?

My solution to all of you, who are constantly whingeing. Get together and go speak your mind. Enough people doing it can change things. You are a powerful body,provided you stick together. Too scared are you? I think so, hence Pprune, which is supposed to be a rumour network, instead we have a slanging match.
tic

with all these logical remedies for the pilot shortage and upgrade-problem, there's one question bragging me constantly:
allthough ek managers have no hr skills whatsoever, they cannot be total no brainers. now tell me why on earth don't they follow the apparently easy, quickly applicable, certainly successful and less costly on the long run advices published here??
i admit, i have no clue.
ttn

LHR rain,
Sorry bud but I have to get into the mix after your last post.
Although true SOME of the DEC's fall into your profile listed in your last post, most do not.

Quote:
"I don't know if your husband is qualifed or not but if he fits the DEC profile he never flew a widebody and never flew outside of Europe but your situation may differ. Every DEC I flew with meets the critera metioned above."

I can tell you that of the 3 DEC's from my former company flying with EK on the 330/777, 2 have wide body time and are both former TRE's, one on the 330 and one on the 767, and each have over 20,000 hours. The one with no wide body time has over 16,000 hours and is a former TRE on the 320 and 737.

Where in your above profile do the former Cathay 340 Captains rate, or the former Senior TRE on the 340 from Swiss, or the former 330 Captains from Air Lingus, or the 747 Captains from the various cargo companies who are now here? I will grant you that some of the DEC's do not come close to meeting the experience level of some of our current F/O's, whose jobs they have taken. Those DEC's should not have been hired. PERIOD

But you can not make a blanket statement like yours regarding every DEC. It is not true, and not fair. You would have taken a DEC job with EK in a heart beat if you qualified. Do not expect any of us to believe otherwise.

As for EK wife, if she is like my wife who has been in this business with me for 20 years, she probably knows more than you think. To tell her she does not have a clue about this industry is rather crass on your part. I received a yellow card last month from 4HP, perhaps is your turn. You need to chill!

Regards,

330 Man

Mensaboy,

I presume your name is meant ironically. If you hire a DEC you have to hire an FO to complement him....correct. If you upgrade an FO to Captain you have to hire another FO to replace him.... and an FO to complement him as with the DEC. The accountants know their stuff sadly. I'm on your side but the numbers aren't.

HUB:rolleyes:

330 Man

You might be right that some of the US Air pilots have flown widebody in their careers. However I believe that most if not all of the US Air DECs that came to EK at the time of joining were not on widebodies because of the redundancies. I even flew with a US Air guy that had never been outside of the US and never ever been on a widebody. Believe me when I tell you that he was very happy to be at EK. I told him to cool his jets.
I will have to stand correted on the CX and Aer Lingus guys. Yellow card for me.
Your wife might have some common sense but EK Wife has none with her comments. I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion but so am I and she is in la la land and probably drunk to boot.

LHR RAIN

Your wife might have some common sense but EK Wife has none with her comments. I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion but so am I and she is in la la land and probably drunk to boot.

Chap, I think this is a little offsides. I agree with almost all the posts being made about DEC's. Crazy idea! The only fault EKWIFE has is that she has not been at EK long enough to know how things work here. Give her 2 months......

Let's keep from the personal comments and keep to the whingeing, it's so much more fun

Keep discovering..................
J1

What involves in an F/O to Captain Upgrade in Emirates. You have to do an initial course or a shorter transition course????
How many days of ground and sim???

It's a bit sad really that one can't post anything without it being ripped to pieces and twisted to suit!

First of all I was accused of being "selfish" by donpizmeov because he thought I was looking for a quick upgrade for my husband - doesn't that prove that my intentions were only to help the situation fo FOs looking to upgrade?

Then when I said my husband was a DEC - well - no need to say more!

The problem with posting on this forum is - if anyone posts anything positive they are in "la la land" and "still in the honeymoon period" (how long is the honeymoon period by the way?) have "third world mentalities", etc, etc and they get ripped to shreds in seconds.

This is the reason that the happy, contented people don't post - it's just not worth it!

I hope I have learned my lesson and when I read some of the tripe that gets posted here, I can be, like my husband, and laugh it off and not get involved again.

Trimotor is right: the majority usually are silent. I don't post often, but some stuff on this thread makes me feel like injecting a few words into the forum.

EKWIFE - Thank you for your input in this thread, it is not only healthy for people to hear a different perspective on a subject (whether one agrees with the view or not), but it is a necesary part of any balanced discussion.

MENSA & ALLURU (and some others whose names escape me) - Your posts have been relevant, eloquent, and objective. Well done! Not an easy thing to do with emotion running so rampant in a thread.

Almost every post on this thread has relevance and meaning to the subject, and most cetainly does to the person writing the post! The only request I would make is to those who are so quick to cut down the views of others.

If you feel that strongly about something it is your responsibility to do what you can as an individual to try and change it. Sitting here and saying "what's the point, it won't change anything" or "I can't; it'll have an adverse affect on my upgrade" are excuses...nothing more.

You don't have to go into the office with guns blazing and fists banging on any horizontal surface. Doing that (and people do!) achieves nothing, other than "changing nothing", and possibly having an "adverse affect on your upgrade".

Putting together a structured, well thought out, accurate case, and presenting it to AS personally is the ONLY way you can have an effect on policy. (Depending on the depth of your feeling and the size of your Kahunas, you may want to go higher, but I would do that only after you receive no response from AS.....i.e. respect the chain of command and give each person in it a chance to do their job before going over their heads)

Whether the policy you seek to change is rostering related, upgrade related, housing, education or anything else related, you MUST put forward a balanced case , with evidence, and without emotion.

I've said this before on a previous thread. I know one person doing it will make little or no difference, but 100, 200, or more pilots doing it WILL make a difference. And if it doesn't, you can look in the mirror and know that you did what you could. I guarantee you will feel better about yourself for the experience, and you might even find your views changing once you have to justify them with evidence and sound argument.

Remember, the way to win an argument/discussion is to change the other person's point of view to your own, or at least make them WANT to see your point of view. You can ONLY do that by understanding the other person's point of view to start with, and where it comes from.

I have my opinions about this subject, as does any pilot (and their families), but the reality of any expat job is that when the bag of s&^&t weighs more than the bag of gold, it is definitely time to revisit your reason for staying. No place is perfect: there will always be that bag of s&^&t to balance the bag of gold. I think the secret is to always, somehow, keep the scales tilted toward the bag of gold, and sometimes the quickest and easiest way to do that is to find a way to lighten the bag of s&^&t.

I'll just rush off now and put my kevlar t-shirt on before the replies roll in!

Cheers to all.......and remember...you woke up today...a lot of others didn't.

CTOAN

In my humble opinion most of the DEC,s are excellent , well

experienced with very strong aviation backgrounds. I don,t

know where these narrow body guys are , they may be out there

but in the minority I would suggest. Actually at the risk of

sounding like a sycophant I think most of them are better than

the home grown variety, at least that,s what some of my

colleagues think and I agree. A question of background and

training I suppose. Not to say the "normal" guys are poor

they are not on the whole .

As for the policy of recruiting DEC,s that,s another matter but

one thing is for certain those F/O,s who think they have an equal

amount of experience as MOST of these DEC,s simply do not,

neither do Most of the EK captains , that,s a fact . I am

sorry we may have to wait a bit longer for our upgrades and hope

that we won,t but at least we can learn from some of these

guys if we want to listen.

Afraid you do sound like a sycophant, a very mixed bag

Just separating fact from fiction , doesn,t mean I like the policy though.

Yours Sycophantically,

Jack

Jack D - next time you go flying how about asking some of the guys what their experience levels are both LHS and RHS, you may be surprised with what you find! Maybe you haven't flown with any really experienced FOs or less experienced Capts but here are a couple of things that come to mind:
1. I saw a DEC getting out of an a/c the other day with a FO who used to have a wide-widebody command, he has vast amounts of experience almost certainly equal to the DEC - he came here just as the rules changed and now cannot get back into the left hand seat until his 3 years are up.
2. I know of several other FOs who were trained by TRIs with less experience than they had. That is not necessarily a bad thing as the TRIs apparently (as I wasn't there) were very good at what they did, but they did not have a lot of experience to fall back on.
3. Would you class a Capt that has spent all his life flying around one area of the world in one type of aircraft doing one type of flying experienced? I wouldn't necessarily say so. Variety is the spice of life and builds experience?

Experience is a worth its weight in gold, at EK it is something I personally think that we lack in a number of areas.

We also have a vast ability range in both the LHS and RHS, so how about less of the sweeping statements please. Ta

PS use the experience in the company before resorting to DECs!!

MiniCooper

Welll your friend lost his job back home, and was able to get one with EK. And in 3 fast years he will be back in the left seat again. No big deal. If he cant accept it, then the right thing to do is to resign.

One signs a contract, with the possibility of a command within a certain time, but the FOM clearly explains the principles.
I have flown with many ex commanders, actually almost all but the former cadets, and noone is whinning about it. Some are actually happy to get the oppotunity to see things from the RHS seat.

I only hope that EK will give transition upgrades when they run out of B777 FOs. That would be a bonus!

I would certainly call a pilot who has flown one type of aircraft in one type of environment for the last 20 years full of experience. Very few pilots get the chance to fly truly worldwide. Cant really name an airline that flies to Greenland and Australia...

Jack D.

You are in denial.

Seek and ye will find.

I believe there are plenty of recruitment pilot vacancies,you sound ideal.

QB:= :*

Why are we getting into trying to compare experience? For what its worth, and coming from me, not much. It is a myth that getting more hours gains experience. Initially it is true that hours mean something but beyond about 2500 as an F/O and 1000 more as a commander, zip. I sat on my ass for 8 hours today going to the UK and just got 8hrs older, a little fatter but not more experienced.

If the company has run out of F/Os that meet their command criteria and want to expand; then they need DECs. For the DECs to be of any use and to have any worthwhile experience; They must be:

1. A commander
2. Qualified on type
3. Used to flying on worldwide ops.

A 15,000 hour 'Captain' is not twice as good as a 7,500 hour Captain, just a little older. The stats actually say they have a higher accident risk for what it is worth. I actually don't believe in hours, I believe in a meritocracy but then the whole aviation industry would collapse and we'd all be DECs rather than just legends in our own lunch times.

EK need to determine what competencies they require in their Captains and promote when they have achieved them; in order of seniority. The flaw is that this system would require honesty and humility. If they don't have enough to promote they will need to hire DECs; but they must have the experience above.

We have had the ludicrous situation of a 737 'Captain, Bill' of whom we have 3 days experience at the interview recruited to the 330 as a DEC. But a 737 'Captain, George', with marginally fewer 'hours', that has spent 2 years working for EK on the 330 is considered ineligible. One word bizarre!

Apparently one of our esteemed managers was qouted as saying 'But Bill is a Captain!' How do you deal with that mentality? Next we will be employing mates even if they fail the assessment.

If we want to move forward we have to assess true experience based upon what a pilot has accomplished during their career. Just counting hours doesn't work. If I took a different measure and said, say, landings, all wide body commanders would be helo pilots.

Cerberus:ok:

mini cooper
 

Your argument lacks consistency.

You claim our TRI's and Emirates have little experience, yet on the other hand you claim that our F/O's have so much experience that they should be considered over DEC's.

Remember that experienced F/O's are not new at EK. We have always had them. Most of our current TRI's were previously extremely experienced F/O's. Most with command experience, many with significant training experience.

EKwife,

You are absolutely right, we should not slag off the airline without a clear idea of where our agenda leads. I think you quoted your husbands longevity as a measure of experience (you have deleted all you posts, so who knows!) You did say though 'The problem with posting on this forum is - if anyone posts anything positive they are in "la la land" and "still in the honeymoon period"'

I am still generally positive about EK but my confidence in DXB took a hit when my family's car was totalled on a roundabout. Not EK's fault but it removed my rose tinted specs. There is a 'honeymoon period', what happens is that when you first arrive you are massively positive. When I first got here all I could see were 'Mega-skyscrapers'. Now all I can see is the sand in between. It doesn't mean that I think EK is a bad job, I don't believe it is nor do I think all the wingeing on the site will change that. But....by coming to DXB you gain some things but give up home! Ask yourself whether you and hubs would have come to EK on an F/O's salary for 10 years and then maybe you might have a better insight into some of the other poster's complaints.

Ghost

Payscale

You`re a typical EK man, think FOM!
Nothwistanding that EK FOM is probably the worst aviation document ever written. Don`t even think this is `the law` and `the rules` and therefore we should obey and be noble. Look at the cabin crew FTL, they are not of this world. Look at `general flight rules`, that chapter is simply the biggest joke ever.

Unfortunetely it`s the people behind the FOM, and the management that show there incapability to run an airline/flight ops. Instead they keep themselves busy with partypolitics, which means elbows and how not to get fired. How long do you think Tcas will last?

The command criteria change whenever they like. They probably change soon , because the current ones don`t match future and current growth. They don`t have anything to do with what`s `logical` or `general aviation criteria`. So Cerberus, I think , is right by saying that current experience criteria, ie flying hours, are not the best method of hiring pilots.

As for keeping the enormous amount of experience of the F/O `s dormant, there`s either a plan (doubt it) or plain stupidity. It`s a matter of using your own in house experience and employees versus people from outside. Guess what`s the best ( and cheapest) option.

I don`t write much on this forum, because I got to think of my next medical. But Payscale please, and others with the same argument that `if you don`t like it you should resign`, think again, and OUTSIDE THE BOX, thanks. I hope you know what that means.

Oh, and Ekwife, management doesn`t read Pprune. That`s criticism and that`s considered very bad in the Victorian Age management style that looks at there employees as costs and not as assets.

Better stick you`re head in the sand below Red dune, see no evil,.......

Happy fighting cheers

The reason the DEC program is here has nothing to do with experience. The DEC's can do the job and so can most of the current EK FO's.

So why have a program that upsets most of our pilots?

One word. HEDGING

He will be invaluable to the company after the next major screw up, which if current practise is continued (FTL's etc.), won't be long.

SVPFO Sacrificially Valuable Person For Offloading

How much do you think Etihad will pay for a new Captain in 2007? 30,000...40,000...50,000 dhs per month. Who can tell, market forces will determine that. One thing is for sure, if a new Captain can demand the bigger salaries, about 400 FO's at Emirates will all of a sudden become "experienced" and Emirates will continue to get bums in the left seat for under 30,000 dhs. In the meantime management are going to continue hedging there bets and they will not allow that commodity in the right seat to dry up. Count on it.

Welcome to the Emirates Pilots Hedge Fund.

Keep Discovering.

BYLAW

I do partially agree with you. Dont take me for one of those who spend their days off at the office, trying to nose their way in.

However, in a company like ours, where there is no communication between us and them, how do you suggest we think out of the box.

I dont know too much about the FOM, because someone cut it out of the budget, so I dont have a readable copy, but it is the legal document that dictates our operations. Good or bad, I vaguely remember the first page said something about Approved by UAE GCAA.

The fact is, we are expanding. We are not getting enough pilots. Some are leaving, but that is not alarmingly many. What are they going to do about it.

Remember what EZY did some years back :uhoh:

With regard to sicko the psycho, if he wants to learn from DECs then he should read the Weekly safety reports "recently" and especially learn from the DEC (with new FO) and the Whoop Whoop PU,PU!


That said todays Words of Wisdom

Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

My inferiority complex is not as good as yours.

If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
:(

Whingey do you really waste your time matching the crews to

the safety reports why ? isn,t that a little amateur . The

event that you mentioned is in a well known area and has

occured before still not good though . Wouldn,t a structured

and relevant Route Ops course be a good idea ? strangely I

can only remember dangerous goods .

Eveyone is in this together and bickering is useless

I don,t care if someone is a DEC ,.a regular 3 yearer,

came from Duff Air or a major carrier they are all EK pilots

some better than others , that,s all . I am sorry for those who

missed out on the DEC policy if they joined before the

programme was in place , particularly as I am one of them,

but life goes on .


I liked your words of wisdom Here,s mine....

Remember it could happen to you !

Jack

EK Pilots:

Did I miss something here? I thought EK had stopped DEC's with the exception of the A-310. Can someone confirm this please.
This is no flame bait just trying to understand.

BDD

TM,

Thank's for the info. With all the A/C on order, will EK
be able to draw in the pilots they need? I think all the F/O's
that you have at this time should get the LHS within 2 years.
Just my opinion(if you have the time).

BDD

You forget to allow for the retirement of about 46 330s and 777-200s before 2010..............

.......... to be replaced by 60 A350 and who knows how many 772 LRs! :ok:

New EK transition upgrade policy
 

FCI coming up with new transition upgrade policy......(maybe a little more solid than just a rumor...)

It'll be on a trial basis and only for "accelerated command" qualified F/Os.....:confused:

mad

"Accelerated command"???? that's a quick way to make friends also.....Man I'm glad I'm not working for EK!

Same to hear that EK is an airline that does not respect their employees (seniority).
Well I guess this is to be expected, at the end of the day the "rules" can be change at anytime, since you have no rights.

Cheers..:cool:

I am about to join ek and I still have big doubts.....
Can you explain better the accelerated command thing?
If I decide to join it would be only because of the quick command they advertise.
Will I be disappointed?