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Emirates Payrise

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Emirates Payrise

Old 9th Jul 2019, 11:02
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 48
777-200LR.
Don’t bother trying to prove these guys/gals from EK wrong you will lose as you can see.
AIMINGHIGH123 is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2019, 16:14
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Heading west, loosing height and smoking heavily...
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by 777-200LR View Post
Let me quickly stop you there. Frontier airlines here in the U.S. didn't have a payrise since the 2005 bankruptcy. They only voted in a new contract 4 months ago...and that's with a union. Go read threads about Atlas Air; another U.S. outfit with a union and one of the lowest paid pilots in the Nation. They are currently in court regarding a new contract that was amenable back in 2016.

Air Canada has no step increases for the first 5 years for FOs, and the basic there is as good as the guys who ask you if you would like that meal large.
You have been misinformed about Air Canada. FOs and RPs are put on flat pay for their first 4 years. Year 1 is $54 500. There are significant step increases each year. Flat pay means everyone is paid the same rate irrespective of their equipment or position. The monthly salary is a 75hr guarantee. Work less and you are still paid for 75hrs. Work more and you are paid a premium. The bidding system works well. There are a significant amount of trips in open time every month for those who want to work more and make extra $. The best part is pilots flying narrow body types cannot be be rostered for more than 16 days a month but can volunteer to work more if they want. I left EK for Air Canada a couple of years ago and have not looked back once...


Last edited by Captain Sham; 9th Jul 2019 at 23:08.
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Old 9th Jul 2019, 17:04
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 44
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post
777-200LR.
Don’t bother trying to prove these guys/gals from EK wrong you will lose as you can see.

Still an EK wannabe AIMINGHIGH123?

Despite the plummeting entry standards, they still haven't taken you on yet?
Adam Barfy is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2019, 18:07
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 274

777-200LR.
Don’t bother trying to prove these guys/gals from EK wrong you will lose as you can see.
Don't worry, since there are fewer of them now, they are not as loud.

No one here is approving EK management but to think that this is not happening industry wide is either naive or ignorant.


Atlas Air Prevails in Court Ruling Against Pilot Union for Illegal Slowdown
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/atlas...-sh&soc_trk=ma

Felixthepussycat,
Looks like even with their voting powers and union backing you talk of, its back to work and shut up. Not even a crash could get them a payrise. Now where have I heard that before??
777-200LR is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2019, 19:32
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 48
In euro land the race to the bottom still continues from the likes of Vueling to BA.

My current outfit sees new FOs paid less than when I joined. How that got through no one knows and just been informed no pay rise due this year or 2020 due to current climate.
Look at BA pay scale now. It’s shocking compared to old scale. Old scale guys touching £300k a year. New scale £200k max and that’s after 34 years. Now they are pushing for 24 hr lay overs. B777 guys already doing 6 trips a month.



Air France and KLM probably the best in euro land if you can get in.

If you read the bottom of that article you will see why pilots get no sympathy. The public think we get paid too much as it is.

Last edited by AIMINGHIGH123; 9th Jul 2019 at 20:00.
AIMINGHIGH123 is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2019, 00:25
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: escaped EK
Posts: 53
poor aiming high, I feel sorry for him I really do. Complaining about pay and conditions at his current employer in the EU, he has no idea what sort of sh*tstorm he is walking into in the UAE. And in 2-3 years when he realises it was all a huge mistake and tries to run, he will find he can't. Then a new and very different reality sinks in.

I literally cried tears of joy when I finally boarded that EK flight out of DXB for the last time. Such a vile and poisonous place that I will never return to again in my life.
directimped is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2019, 10:06
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by directimped View Post
poor aiming high, I feel sorry for him I really do. Complaining about pay and conditions at his current employer in the EU, he has no idea what sort of sh*tstorm he is walking into in the UAE. And in 2-3 years when he realises it was all a huge mistake and tries to run, he will find he can't. Then a new and very different reality sinks in.

I literally cried tears of joy when I finally boarded that EK flight out of DXB for the last time. Such a vile and poisonous place that I will never return to again in my life.
I never said EK was perfect.
This is about pay rises/lack of industry wide. CX has been going down the pan for years.

EK and the ME in general at the moment offers other benefits that no other operator does. Has your rent increased? EK handles that. How about getting to work? I spend about £500 a month getting to and from work.

Do your time and get out.

Ps We have an ex EK captain joined our outfit he was at EK for 2 decades. Quote. “Is it always this bad here” Yes 4 sectors are standard. Yes aircraft go tech probably once every 10 days worked. Yes we are usually delayed. Yes they can change your shift on the day you operate. “Oh right. I will bid for part time then”.
8 year waiting list for that.

I think our management are ok but depending on who you ask depends on the answer. Some say they work for Lucifer.

Last edited by AIMINGHIGH123; 10th Jul 2019 at 10:20.
AIMINGHIGH123 is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2019, 11:15
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UAE
Posts: 944
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post

Do your time and get out.
The most sensible thing Aminghigh has ever written. Tragic, as it used to be a job you wanted to keep until you had to retire.


BigGeordie is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2019, 16:01
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uae
Posts: 2,334
Dubai is a very stressful environment to live and EK is a very stressful place to work. What I find disturbing is the number of guys planning on working til 65 !!! They ignore the warning signs that they are killing themselves.
fatbus is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2019, 09:38
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: escaped EK
Posts: 53
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post

Do your time and get out.


There is no such thing. You are talking about buying property to make more money. Great idea - under it comes time to leave and the market crashes. Do you dare tell your bank you are leaving the UAE? Think you can make the payments from abroad? Not that easy. Maybe you sell - right now the property market is in free fall. I have seen people take a 500k AED loss just to get out.

Leaving isn't easy. You pretend like the UK is such a shit place, you haven't seen anything yet. The UK is paradise compared to what you are going to experience. But why not, come on over and see for yourself. EK is but a fraction of the misery you will experience living in Dubai.
directimped is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2019, 10:08
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 53
A comparison of which airline is the worse for cutting terms and conditions or which behavior towards their employees is more abhorrent etc., is futile without a detailed examination of many factors. No one has enough access to make an accurate assessment. Besides what is gained apart from perhaps a list of employers one should avoid?

The fact is that industry-wide the T&C have been radically eroded in the airline industry. And indeed in many other industries. The entire fabric of corporate behavior has changed, putting the interests of shareholders and executives in direct conflict with those of the employees with devastating social implications for the immediate stakeholders and indeed the public at large. The Boeing 737 Max fiasco is a glaring example. As the regulators are in the pockets of corporates it is therefore not surprising that they are not looking further afield to see how endemic this is in the entire industry, though with differing manifestations.

One only has to look at France Telecom whose executives are on trial for murder because of their systematic abuse of employees leading to 35 suicides, to see how far individuals will go to protect their bonuses. (See WSJ) And they had a union for all the use it was to the 35 driven to such desperation. Imagine the implications of this in the airline industry. Thankfully we are not there.

In our own sphere however, I feel that the pilots themselves must take some responsibility. One does not need a union to retain T&C and slow the erosion. Much is in the hands of the employees themselves if they are smart, professional and diligent. We have allowed ourselves to be manipulated and marginalized often without a murmur of dissent and in some cases with groups working in direct conflict to enable their employers to divide and conquer with ease.

Obviously many of us cannot directly confront the employers on an individual basis. But through small acts of sensibly based passive resistance we can demonstrate that some changes are simply not worth the trouble, some cleverly introduced erosion should be rescinded, or some historic assumptions should be reconsidered.

I am often amazed at pilots who come to work clearly sick or fatigued. When queried they express the opinion that they will be victimized for reporting unfit. In my experience that is unlikely unless they themselves have been abusing the system. Aside from that ,there are in fact many remedies to this.

Primarily, it is unprofessional and unfair to do this. Sickness, if genuine can be validated by medical practitioners giving the company a headache if this leads to disciplinary action. Many call in sick if they are in fact tired or fatigued. In my own company these are handled quite differently though most do not know the subtle differences. The company itself has skewed the process to muddy the waters. My company calls fatigue "sickness" using essentially the same rostering codes for the two. Ridiculous really, as they are not remotely the same thing. But convenient to hide the fatigue aspects in the sickness statistics from the regulator to prevent interference in ever increasing duty times.

One is either sick or fatigued, yet many will report sick when in fact they are fatigued, playing directly into the company’s agenda. These days the fatigue itself can often be validated with modern Apps, the model of which is exactly what the company FRMS itself uses. A good record of duties and appropriate screenshots would be enough to rebut any future queries. Insist on a printout from the company FRMS for future use.

In many instances, pilots avoid putting in fatigue reports when this occurs during a duty. Either through fear of reprisal or sheer laziness. Enough reports on the actual duties that are a step too far will soon see the company make changes. It always has. The managers do not want a trail of evidence leading to their inaction.

Pilots do not bother writing about the obvious abuses in duty times. One instance is likely to be ignored but a couple of hundred will not. This only represents a small percentage of the pilot contingent. Duty times before blocks off were extended to more realistic values through mass protest and some judicious use of media. We still have the same duty time after blocks on which falls way short of the reality. However it is seldom mentioned. I guarantee a few hundred polite emails on the inadequacy of these timings would see change. I can also be confident few have the skills or are too timorous to do this despite the fact they would not be victimized.

Pilots return from leave and fly compressed rosters, clearly fatigued in the process, without doing the right thing and using the tools available to avoid this happening. At the same time they allow themselves to be taken advantage of economically. Have they no self-worth at all?

If one does not take the time to logically, unemotionally and politely, put in writing the failures and dangers of the various systems that govern us, one can hardly be surprised when the management assume all is well and push the limits a bit harder. In many instances they actively encourage us to do this to have the data to show the executives in order to drive through the changes. Yet many do nothing. They might speak up at some forum which is nothing more than egotistical venting as there is no written trail so feared by the top.

No one has earned the right to comment on PPRuNe unless they have done all they can in their sphere to resist stupidity and officially document their objection to irrational and dangerous changes.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Pixy is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2019, 11:09
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Doctor's waiting room
Posts: 563
A good post Pixy but I feel I need to comment on one part though:

I am often amazed at pilots who come to work clearly sick or fatigued. When queried they express the opinion that they will be victimized for reporting unfit. In my experience that is unlikely unless they themselves have been abusing the system. Aside from that ,there are in fact many remedies to this.

Primarily, it is unprofessional and unfair to do this. Sickness, if genuine can be validated by medical practitioners giving the company a headache if this leads to disciplinary action.
Sickness that has been certified by an AME has in the past, been used as an excuse to delay a command course for an F/O. We have often heard about colleagues who are summoned for a 'chat' on the third floor about their certified sickness. When it comes to managing sickness, the company appear to be incredibly shortsighted and simply view the employee as being less productive than they should be, instead of initially considering exactly why the employee was marked sick.
Emma Royds is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2019, 11:34
  #33 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,874
Sorry to hop in here., But Emma makes a very valid point.

Also Pixy.. I lost count of the wash ups I sat through with people complaining about rosters and fatigue, management furiously taking notes and saying ‘ things will be done’.. and nothing ever was.

I do agree with most of what you post Pixie.. however, I found this interesting, regarding the downward spiral of T and C world wide.

There is is an interesting conversation going on in the Oz forum regarding the new QF EBA. QF Shorthaul FOS are ( for what ever reason) posting actual payslips showing annual income above $200000 AUD. One Jetstar FO posted, that for 608 hours stick hours in the financial year, his gross was around $180000 AUD.

Im betting that ANY line pilot in EK that ‘ only flew ‘ 608 hours in a year, would be having a cup of hot water., no tea or biscuits.

i don’t think how many reports people write.. nothing will change. EK is determined, and has been for years now, to bleed their pilots dry, and then discard them.

( And I don’t believe what the EK package is now, even comes close to remnuerating the work a EK pilot does)
SOPS is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2019, 12:03
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Doha
Posts: 207
Originally Posted by Pixy View Post
A comparison of which airline is the worse for cutting terms and conditions or which behavior towards their employees is more abhorrent etc., is futile without a detailed examination of many factors. No one has enough access to make an accurate assessment. Besides what is gained apart from perhaps a list of employers one should avoid?

The fact is that industry-wide the T&C have been radically eroded in the airline industry. And indeed in many other industries. The entire fabric of corporate behavior has changed, putting the interests of shareholders and executives in direct conflict with those of the employees with devastating social implications for the immediate stakeholders and indeed the public at large. The Boeing 737 Max fiasco is a glaring example. As the regulators are in the pockets of corporates it is therefore not surprising that they are not looking further afield to see how endemic this is in the entire industry, though with differing manifestations.

One only has to look at France Telecom whose executives are on trial for murder because of their systematic abuse of employees leading to 35 suicides, to see how far individuals will go to protect their bonuses. (See WSJ) And they had a union for all the use it was to the 35 driven to such desperation. Imagine the implications of this in the airline industry. Thankfully we are not there.

In our own sphere however, I feel that the pilots themselves must take some responsibility. One does not need a union to retain T&C and slow the erosion. Much is in the hands of the employees themselves if they are smart, professional and diligent. We have allowed ourselves to be manipulated and marginalized often without a murmur of dissent and in some cases with groups working in direct conflict to enable their employers to divide and conquer with ease.

Obviously many of us cannot directly confront the employers on an individual basis. But through small acts of sensibly based passive resistance we can demonstrate that some changes are simply not worth the trouble, some cleverly introduced erosion should be rescinded, or some historic assumptions should be reconsidered.

I am often amazed at pilots who come to work clearly sick or fatigued. When queried they express the opinion that they will be victimized for reporting unfit. In my experience that is unlikely unless they themselves have been abusing the system. Aside from that ,there are in fact many remedies to this.

Primarily, it is unprofessional and unfair to do this. Sickness, if genuine can be validated by medical practitioners giving the company a headache if this leads to disciplinary action. Many call in sick if they are in fact tired or fatigued. In my own company these are handled quite differently though most do not know the subtle differences. The company itself has skewed the process to muddy the waters. My company calls fatigue "sickness" using essentially the same rostering codes for the two. Ridiculous really, as they are not remotely the same thing. But convenient to hide the fatigue aspects in the sickness statistics from the regulator to prevent interference in ever increasing duty times.

One is either sick or fatigued, yet many will report sick when in fact they are fatigued, playing directly into the company’s agenda. These days the fatigue itself can often be validated with modern Apps, the model of which is exactly what the company FRMS itself uses. A good record of duties and appropriate screenshots would be enough to rebut any future queries. Insist on a printout from the company FRMS for future use.

In many instances, pilots avoid putting in fatigue reports when this occurs during a duty. Either through fear of reprisal or sheer laziness. Enough reports on the actual duties that are a step too far will soon see the company make changes. It always has. The managers do not want a trail of evidence leading to their inaction.

Pilots do not bother writing about the obvious abuses in duty times. One instance is likely to be ignored but a couple of hundred will not. This only represents a small percentage of the pilot contingent. Duty times before blocks off were extended to more realistic values through mass protest and some judicious use of media. We still have the same duty time after blocks on which falls way short of the reality. However it is seldom mentioned. I guarantee a few hundred polite emails on the inadequacy of these timings would see change. I can also be confident few have the skills or are too timorous to do this despite the fact they would not be victimized.

Pilots return from leave and fly compressed rosters, clearly fatigued in the process, without doing the right thing and using the tools available to avoid this happening. At the same time they allow themselves to be taken advantage of economically. Have they no self-worth at all?

If one does not take the time to logically, unemotionally and politely, put in writing the failures and dangers of the various systems that govern us, one can hardly be surprised when the management assume all is well and push the limits a bit harder. In many instances they actively encourage us to do this to have the data to show the executives in order to drive through the changes. Yet many do nothing. They might speak up at some forum which is nothing more than egotistical venting as there is no written trail so feared by the top.

No one has earned the right to comment on PPRuNe unless they have done all they can in their sphere to resist stupidity and officially document their objection to irrational and dangerous changes.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Nail, head!

We are our own worst enemy.

OW
FlyingOW is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2019, 15:05
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,003
Beware boys and girls, a certain powerful lady on the third floor examines fatigue related reports, checks for roster swaps before and after - and if any time of rest was infringed due swap - regardless of relevance, is threatening to remove swap function from said pilot. Sly tactics.

As to disciplinary action to those who have been ordered not to fly by an AME (delayed upgrade, harassment meetiing etc)...karma will visit this third floor with such a hammer blow ...when the inevitable crash comes.

And I and many others will become willing consultants for plaintiffs lawyers, foreign CAA’s, victims families...you name it.

The onion will be peeled ...just wait.

Unfortunately death will be the elixir.
fliion is offline  
Old 12th Jul 2019, 15:13
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: six micro tesla zone
Age: 28
Posts: 381
Decline in T&Cs goes much wider than aviation. I remember in the early 2000s, my dad was a police constable at the top of his scale earning £42k. My mum was a clerical worker earning £20k on a part time NHS contract; that’s the equivalent of £67k and £32k respectively in today’s money.

Today the top of the police constable scale is £38k and a full time clerical worker in the NHS still earns £20k max. Leave allocation has reduced and final salary pensions are gone.

There are a lot of reasons for the pathetic levels remuneration across the developed world today; corporate & individual greed, increasing population & reducing workforce, over regulation, decline of the west... the list is endless and I think the snowball has got too big to stop.

I fear the only way to succeed in life is to plot your own career path, accept that there will be many twists and turns in your life, accept that you cannot rely on any single organisation to provide you with a living and just make the most of what life throws at you.

Its a brave new new world we live in, those who succeed will be those who can adapt. Sitting around looking back into the past with rose tinted glasses is not going to get you anywhere.
MaverickPrime is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2019, 09:08
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: A cut above
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by fliion View Post
Beware boys and girls, a certain powerful lady on the third floor examines fatigue related reports, checks for roster swaps before and after - and if any time of rest was infringed due swap - regardless of relevance, is threatening to remove swap function from said pilot. Sly tactics.
Hang on can you explain that one to me?

Correct me if I’m wrong - you’re saying that a pilot swaps into “fatiguing duties” and then puts in a fatigue report and is surprised that the company objects?

If I’ve understood this correctly then it’s reasonable to assume that this would happen anywhere because clearly the individual concerned is taking the piss.
whatsyourbeef is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2019, 13:26
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,003
Take a deep breath ‘whatsyour beef’ and read what I wrote again.

Where did I write swaps into fatiguing duties?

Keep up
fliion is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2019, 22:47
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: A cut above
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by fliion View Post
Take a deep breath ‘whatsyour beef’ and read what I wrote again.

Where did I write swaps into fatiguing duties?

Keep up

No need to be rude champ. I asked for your clarification.

You said “if any time of rest is infringed due swap”. So what does this mean then? Have you swapped into a duty that infringes on your rest period(s) or not?
whatsyourbeef is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2019, 23:01
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Doctor's waiting room
Posts: 563
The swap system is fully automated and uses FTL criteria plus a company created buffer for rest periods and flying hour limits. Therefore any swap that is made, will be comfortably within FTL limits. I think my colleague is trying to highlight a scenario when a swap is made, that simply reduces your rest period.
Emma Royds is offline  

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