Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

EK207 Jfk

Old 14th Dec 2017, 14:06
  #181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 3,332
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
Or the 13 ILS...
They can ILSs to 13L/R anytime, just close down KLGA and probably KEWR due to the airspace.

GF
galaxy flyer is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 14:10
  #182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Blandings
Posts: 705
"The FCTM prohibits?"

Yeah it does. Handy little document many of you may might want to have a little look into some time.

It will tell you that if a B777 follows the guidance from a 2 bar VASIS the main gear will cross the threshold at 13'. It's those little tidbits that keep me coming back.
Dropp the Pilot is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 14:11
  #183 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DontBai
Posts: 240
Straight from the USDOT FAA ATO Policy Document
Chapter 2 General Control

2-1-6. SAFETY ALERT

Issue a safety alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is in a position/altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain, obstructions, or other aircraft. Once the pilot informs you action is being taken to resolve the situation, you may discontinue the issuance of further alerts. Do not assume that because someone else has responsibility for the aircraft that the unsafe situation has been observed and the safety alert issued; inform the appropriate controller.

NOTE-
1. The issuance of a safety alert is a first priority (see para 2-1-2, Duty Priority) once the controller observes and recognizes a situation of unsafe aircraft proximity to terrain, obstacles, or other aircraft. Conditions, such as workload, traffic volume, the quality/limitations of the radar system, and the available lead time to react are factors in determining whether it is reasonable for the controller to observe and recognize such situations. While a controller cannot see immediately the development of every situation where a safety alert must be issued, the controller must remain vigilant for such situations and issue a safety alert when the situation is recognized.

2. Recognition of situations of unsafe proximity may result from MSAW/E-MSAW/LAAS, automatic altitude readouts, Conflict/Mode C Intruder Alert, observations on a PAR scope, or pilot reports.

3. Once the alert is issued, it is solely the pilot's prerogative to determine what course of action, if any, will be taken.

a. Terrain/Obstruction Alert. Immediately issue/initiate an alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is at an altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain/obstructions. Issue the alert as follows:

PHRASEOLOGY-
LOW ALTITUDE ALERT (call sign),

CHECK YOUR ALTITUDE IMMEDIATELY.

THE (as appropriate) MEA/MVA/MOCA/MIA IN YOUR AREA IS (altitude),

or if an aircraft is past the final approach fix (nonprecision approach),

or the outer marker,

or the fix used in lieu of the outer marker (precision approach),

and, if known, issue

THE (as appropriate) MDA/DH IS (altitude).

Seems pretty close to by the book
Instant Hooligan is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 14:19
  #184 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Isla Grande
Posts: 922
Originally Posted by Instant Hooligan View Post
Straight from the USDOT FAA ATO Policy Document
Chapter 2 General Control

2-1-6. SAFETY ALERT

Issue a safety alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is in a position/altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain, obstructions, or other aircraft. Once the pilot informs you action is being taken to resolve the situation, you may discontinue the issuance of further alerts. Do not assume that because someone else has responsibility for the aircraft that the unsafe situation has been observed and the safety alert issued; inform the appropriate controller.

NOTE-
1. The issuance of a safety alert is a first priority (see para 2-1-2, Duty Priority) once the controller observes and recognizes a situation of unsafe aircraft proximity to terrain, obstacles, or other aircraft. Conditions, such as workload, traffic volume, the quality/limitations of the radar system, and the available lead time to react are factors in determining whether it is reasonable for the controller to observe and recognize such situations. While a controller cannot see immediately the development of every situation where a safety alert must be issued, the controller must remain vigilant for such situations and issue a safety alert when the situation is recognized.

2. Recognition of situations of unsafe proximity may result from MSAW/E-MSAW/LAAS, automatic altitude readouts, Conflict/Mode C Intruder Alert, observations on a PAR scope, or pilot reports.

3. Once the alert is issued, it is solely the pilot's prerogative to determine what course of action, if any, will be taken.

a. Terrain/Obstruction Alert. Immediately issue/initiate an alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is at an altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain/obstructions. Issue the alert as follows:

PHRASEOLOGY-
LOW ALTITUDE ALERT (call sign),

CHECK YOUR ALTITUDE IMMEDIATELY.

THE (as appropriate) MEA/MVA/MOCA/MIA IN YOUR AREA IS (altitude),

or if an aircraft is past the final approach fix (nonprecision approach),

or the outer marker,

or the fix used in lieu of the outer marker (precision approach),

and, if known, issue

THE (as appropriate) MDA/DH IS (altitude).

Seems pretty close to by the book
IMHO it's a culture thing to blame ATC for an incident/accident in the first place. THY, Indonesian operators, third world, anyhow. But how can a ME pilot seriously blame US/JFK ATC for this incident?

JFK TOWER may have saved the ship!
gearlever is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 14:38
  #185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 479
It should be obvious to all that whatever the unique style of jfk ATC, how an A380 got into this position is hardly their fault. Over complicated pseudo rocket science procedures promulgated by not as clever as they think trainers / checkers, debilitating rosters, time zone changes, inadequate rest facilities and of course the oft quoted ‘culture’ where normal mistakes result in ludicrous and punitive diciplinary measures. Quite pathetic how it has come to this. My view: the vast majority of ek pilots are a good or above standard, badly let down by the system from all angles. There is patently no honest and just safety culture and the wrong people perpetuate this nonsense. Oh and as an aside, the sister outfit over the road killed 70 plus people but still no explanation.
olster is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 14:44
  #186 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: xxx
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by donpizmeov View Post
Totally agree fliion. This new procedure is a mess. turning one problem into another.
very true - its a mess


the FCI is now the response to the recent events!


The application of the intercept from above - even it is a approved SOP - is not allowed because it is unsafe to descend into an certified and approved ILS GS signal - which has been certified to the ICAO specs - and serving as the safety net for such a procedure.


on the other hand it is safe to fly an aircraft below the charted minimum - using the Autopilot outside of its limitations (on an APPR other than ILS below MDA or charted Miniums in a selected DES mode) ignoring an amber PFD MSG " DISENGAGE AUTOPILOT FOR LANDING" - without any safety nets.


reason is because of signal fluctuations, inside the granted signal quality of the beam.
this is a very amusing approach to the problem
WB1900 is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 18:05
  #187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,007
Originally Posted by Neptune Spear View Post
Just last week at LGA
“Traffic on crossing runway on short final and landing traffic has yet to clear be ready Delta”.....
Since I’m not a dumb ass and have common sense I stood the throttles up and when ATC cleared us for takeoff we were rolling in no time.
Has common sense left the cockpit or do we need everything spelled out for us?
I have always loved the CRI approach since it gives us a chance to do something different. The River Visual into DCA is another fun one but some of the posters on this forum should stay away from those approaches. Please!
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...CA18IA026.aspx

Looks like you and Airbubba gonna be busy dancing on your Delta buddies graves also, almost landed on an occupied taxiway.

But you said it better than me : “some of the posters on this forum should stay away from those approaches.“

As against a straigh in ILS at Home base.

Karma buddy, told ya.

Last edited by fliion; 14th Dec 2017 at 19:32.
fliion is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 18:52
  #188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Dee Sea
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by FlyingUpsideDown View Post
Something interesting and worth noting is that Runway 13L used to have a 2 Bar VASI on the left hand side. The B777 FCTM prohibits the use of the 2 Bar VASI. I see that they've upgraded to the PAPI however, recently I flew a simulator with JFK visuals which had the old 2 Bar VASI. I wonder if the EK sims have been updated? Also is a 2 Bar VASI allowed in the A380?
13R was upgraded to a PAPI. 13L has a 2-bar VASI (on both sides of the runway).
Matvey is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 19:37
  #189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 654
Originally Posted by donpizmeov View Post
Totally agree fliion. This new procedure is a mess. turning one problem into another.
Nothing like cracking a walnut with a sledgehammer, the new SOP in my view wouldn’t have prevented either event.
The issue in Moscow could never have occurred if 1000’ AAL was set, and JFK wouldn’t have happened if the crew had a clue as to their distance to fly from touchdown.
This is a bandaid applied to a knee that has jerked into an obstruction, and it won’t solve the ROOT cause.
Two things will now happen.
1. Forget flying CDAs, it’s dive and drive, the risks associated with being high outweigh the benefits to crews of flying efficiently.
2. There will now be more events related to high RODs as crews who get hung out to dry by ATC try to get to platform ALT, which despite the missive of a decision to GA from a higher ALT being safer neglects to consider the greater energy and reduced margin to make that decision as some crews will invariably be pushed further into a corner.

Just my immediate thoughts whilst enjoying a rare few days off.
Monarch Man is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 20:02
  #190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,748
Originally Posted by FlyingUpsideDown View Post
Something interesting and worth noting is that Runway 13L used to have a 2 Bar VASI on the left hand side. The B777 FCTM prohibits the use of the 2 Bar VASI. I see that they've upgraded to the PAPI however, recently I flew a simulator with JFK visuals which had the old 2 Bar VASI. I wonder if the EK sims have been updated? Also is a 2 Bar VASI allowed in the A380?
I believe use of the 2-bar VASI is prohibited for every widebody since the 747. Also, it is not allowed on the 757 as I recall.

I don't think the VASI was a player in this JFK incident, however.
Airbubba is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 20:27
  #191 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Sharp End.
Posts: 433
Olster, that's right. Blame the evil trainers and checkers for 'promulgating' this. While I acknowledge there are many other factors, it's a cheap shot to blame the trainers etc.
sluggums is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 23:03
  #192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 479
Woah, sluggums, you misinterpret my post. I was an SFI for 3 years until I had enough. The vast majority of trainers are good guys with the best of intentions including some very good friends of mine. However, there is an element of over complication where the basics get ignored. It is interesting that you are defensive about the training dept when the other stuff, warning letters etc are an integral part of the overall morale or lack of it. The joys of PPRuNe where out of context is the norm. And just where does the responsibility for the recent spate of near misses lie?
olster is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2017, 23:27
  #193 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: here and there, mostly there...
Posts: 333
Looking at the event I think the looking out part was forgotten.
Every pilot knows that when a runway moves up in yr windscreen you're actually descending too fast if yr on profile, and that its time to check what you missed. Both pilots ofcourse.

Imho JFK ATC was on the ball. Yes they can be harse, but this time they were the saving guardians, good stuff.
natops is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2017, 02:55
  #194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,059
Totally agree fliion. This new procedure is a mess. turning one problem into another
I agree don, EK hassan other problem .... and by the way to some posters: Trying to blame a working partner that just saved the day is extremely low!
glofish is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2017, 04:20
  #195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dubai
Age: 51
Posts: 195
Just my 2c......

1. ATC did not cause this. I don't think anyone really said that.
2. In any incident investigation, it is appropriate to look at ATC actions.
3. It is possible that they were using the canarsie when an easier and better approach was available. It is not unreasonable to ask ATC to look at this aspect.
4. US/JFK are seriously unfriendly at times. Their clipped, harsh and ambiguous instructions are a problem. Maybe it works for them and local pilots. TBH, I don't have a problem with it.....however, I feel very uncomfortable having to ask for clarification on something.....often the response leaves me feeling stupid and red-faced. That lies at their feet and doesn't foster a comfortable and safe working environment. Give me India ATC anyday......at least they are friendly, even if I ask them to repeat 10 times.
5. In their defense, they don't go running to the authorities at the drop of a hat(unlike the Aussies).
6. Those that think the pilots should simply have looked out are over-simplifying. This could easily have happened to me. I know it would not have happened to many of the pilots here because you guys never screw up.
7. If they were not looking in the right place, there is a reason for that. Probably trying to make sure the fmc & fcu setting were correct, as that is what is monitored and will land you in doo doo, not what you are looking at.
8. Note that the response from the company so far has been to emphasize SOP and that autoflight settings are being monitored. Further emphasis on consequences for SOP deviance, in the interest of flight safety and brand reputation. Make of this what you will.....I know what my take away is(hint : it's not that I can expect further training.......)
Kennytheking is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2017, 06:19
  #196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Posts: 730
SLF here

EK poor training, JFK crappy airport, JFK ATC poor.....nutshell disaster waiting to happen as per comments.

I fly into JFK once a month if not more. All of them on EK & several flights on EK 207 The holes in my swiss cheese seem all lined up.

I am scared stiff after reading comments of the professionals here......
Wannabe Flyer is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2017, 06:45
  #197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mars
Posts: 522
Don’t worry, this is why Aviation is safe, mistakes get discussed!

Crew cocked up, realized late, went round. Still had another slice of cheese (hopefully cheddar) that wasn’t used the ground proximity warning system. Pilots on PPRuNe suffer from the god complex and love to explain why it wouldn’t have happened to them.

Originally Posted by Wannabe Flyer View Post
SLF here

EK poor training, JFK crappy airport, JFK ATC poor.....nutshell disaster waiting to happen as per comments.

I fly into JFK once a month if not more. All of them on EK & several flights on EK 207 The holes in my swiss cheese seem all lined up.

I am scared stiff after reading comments of the professionals here......
Schnowzer is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2017, 07:08
  #198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 2,924
Exactly what schnowser said. Rantings on an anonymous forum, particularly when some seem to have an agender can't be relied on.
donpizmeov is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2017, 07:46
  #199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Posts: 730
Originally Posted by donpizmeov View Post
Exactly what schnowser said. Rantings on an anonymous forum, particularly when some seem to have an agender can't be relied on.
Phew ok so then I will enjoy my Hummous appetiser & 1700 movies on the Entertainment on the next EK flight in 6 days to JFK

BTW if some one from EK is reading this please do upgrade me as I am getting to old to sit 14 hours with my Knees in my chin & my pocket has not gotten any deeper.......

Last edited by Wannabe Flyer; 15th Dec 2017 at 09:27.
Wannabe Flyer is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2017, 10:12
  #200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Red Star
Posts: 55
So, an EK 380 with four pilots in the cockpit nearly crashes short of runway 13L in JFK.
Hardly anyone are pointing their fingers at the pilots, but blame: ATC, trainers, the procedure, the airport, USA, training, the FMC, fatigue.

The pilots scrxxed up and ATC had to tell four pilots that they were very low.

Maybe they guys were not up to the job? Maybe the guys in Moscow were not up to the job? Maybe the EK 777 that crashed had a captain who should not have been in the cockpit in the first place?
I was at the holding in DUS when EK landed a 380. Eeeh, EK xxx, runway vacated? EK xxx, you are supposed to call ground by yourself, but contact them on 121.xxx. So, after flying for 6-7 hours, none of the pilots had bothered to read up on the airport procedures.

Just rantings on an anonumus forum, nothing wrong here. Move along and have a nice flight.
Xiamen is offline  

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