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Old 17th Sep 2017, 06:05
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,006
What's with the overconfidence & defensiveness of some of the junior Trainer's/FO's/cadets these days?

Is that a "millennial pilot" thing?

Last edited by fliion; 17th Sep 2017 at 06:15.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 06:39
  #22 (permalink)  
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I agree with SOPS
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 06:41
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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SOPS you're talking BS. If SOPS were followed, EMW wouldn't have been a write off. Half the guys think the Co notam RAAS long landing after touchdown came as a result of EK521, it was there the morning the flight departed TRV. Part of "doing pilot stuff" is knowing your aircraft, and absolute least when in doubt; PITCH & POWER
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 07:24
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
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A reasonable balanced view from SOPS,
without resorting to put downs.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 07:24
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Dubayy
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It's not possible because the Training Department only taught them SOP compliance and not Pitch+Power = Performance....apparently

But yes, agreed the fear makes people do silly things...Bird on engine comes to mind.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 09:16
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
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SOPS you're talking BS. If SOPS were followed, EMW wouldn't have been a write off. Half the guys think the Co notam RAAS long landing after touchdown came as a result of EK521, it was there the morning the flight departed TRV. Part of "doing pilot stuff" is knowing your aircraft, and absolute least when in doubt; PITCH & POWER
200LR back up the blame game for a second there fella, what SOPs is saying is spot on, moreover its eminently sensible and safe.
I too have had a RAAS event that was on the face of it valid, but to me it was spurious, I elected to continue the landing, filed the paperwork and registered my concern with fleet/safety/Boeing technical pilots. Long story short, very few people where aware that RAAS referenced itself from the start rather than the end of the runway when the "policy" was written and I was vindicated along with others in suggesting that this is a tool, not a catch all.
Yet again unfortunately it's another case of unaccountable individuals embracing immature technology and making policy decisions at no risk to themselves whilst undermining the very experience and professionalism of the individuals who up until this managed to not over-run a runway.
This leads me back to what SOPs said, 200LR you must surely appreciate that procedures are there as a baseline, the piloting bit overrides all of that, and that piloting bit is presently being taught by an increasing number of "wood for the trees" trainers who themselves lack many of the key skills in areas of experience and airmanship that it will take a monumental effort to reverse, it's also clear to me that over reliance on technology is as much the culprit as is company culture, but the company at its core doesn't believe that either of these threats even exist.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 12:02
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dubai
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Skipper is a solid operator I've flown with on 330.

He was on a fairly punishing reserve roster with approximately 50 hours of back-of-the-clock flying (unfactored of course) in ten days at the time of the incident

Moscow is a tricky destination.

Nobody gets up in the morning and thinks "yeah lets screw up big time today!"

Let's not hang, draw and quarter them based on incomplete info, we can leave that to our illustrious "management".

Flex
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 12:08
  #28 (permalink)  
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200 LR...we will have to agree to disagree. Many Captains and a huge amount of FOs approaching command, dread being called into the office, for a 'talk', especially with a certain DCPB, who used to live in a country surrounded by a wall, ( who interesntly likes livining in his cubicle in the office, and tell others how to fly, but not fly himself.) in my time in EK, I was 'lucky' , I was in the position that if I did something the Company deemed ' bad' or ' showing 'The Brand' in a bad light'...my family home in Australia or my family's future would not be under threat.
However, let's look at the case of the 777 first.
If the guys had in the back of their heads ' well if we land off this we might get a phone call that says...Hi guys, we saw you landed off a RAAS warning, we know that's no problem in Dubai...but be careful if you are landing in Newcastle...anyway have a good day, see you later mate'...they would have landed and gone home.

However, I will bet you a million dollars they had in the back of their heads the email they would recieve the next morning had they landed,

" what have you done? You have landed against a RAAS warning, you have been removed from the roster pending investigation. You have blatantly ignored Company procedures. Please be in the DCPB office tomorrow morning ( on your day off) for an interview with DCPB and several other heavies'

Well, we all know the result of that one...now let's talk about the A380 in Moscow.

None of us know what really happened yet.
However, if I had just nearly buried myself into the mud of 'The Beloved Mother Country ', I would already wishing my uniform pants were brown. But as I tried to do the second ( and perhaps third) approach, with in the back of my head...well that's it...the house is gone..the kids education is gone..how will I pay out the car loan...
And sitting next to me was a new boy FO ( and I have no idea about the FOs experience), however, if he is sitting there in the middle of the night thinking...I just moved my family here..WTF just happened? You really think that crew is in the correct frame of mind to land the aircraft? I would suggest they are so stressed out, they should be in bed with about three Valium.

Fear and punishment rule. Basic common sense and pilot shti has been thrown out the window...my take on it anyway.
And it's easy for me..I do it from the comfort of home, stay safe out there!
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 12:27
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Midlands
Posts: 160
There's nothing to suggest the EMW crew didn't know SOPs or tech stuff.

Getting startled and worrying about the correct decision to make is a human factors issue and easily blocks your brain from doing the right thing. Pressure from above affects people in different ways. I'm pretty sure anyone can get forget SOPs and tech knowledge at crucial times if under enough pressure... SOPs had it spot on about corporate culture.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 13:28
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Al Ain
Posts: 99
Moscow is a very easy destination.

Some people create difficulty : how many times do you find the meters still displayed when getting in the cockpit at DME ? they figure it helps for gross error check during approach, when it's just adding confusion. You don't need meters there, it's not China ...
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 13:49
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dubai
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Agree completely with SOPs & MM. Somebody else talking BS here.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 13:56
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
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The other issue is that we have all been flying max hours for 5 years or more now. 90-100 hours a month. Fleet doesn't see it that way..."Well, you had 42 days of leave so you don't fly 1000 EVERY month" (verbatim to me in the office).

The effects of that flying is manifesting itself now in terms of sickness and in terms of performance.

I agree that we have to be professionals, stay current and fly the damn airplane. The problem is that everything works AGAINST the pilots from doing so.

Worse, they don't see it!!! It is like the trainee pilot who screws up in the sim. If he see's his mistakes you can train him to not repeat him. The dangerous one is the pilot who does NOT see where they erred.

That is EK management - head in the sand. Blame the pilots and hope for the best.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 14:38
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Originally Posted by Marcellus Wallace View Post
It's not possible because the Training Department only taught them SOP compliance and not Pitch+Power = Performance....apparently

But yes, agreed the fear makes people do silly things...Bird on engine comes to mind.
To think that a Training Department in an International Airline would have to train Pitch +Power = Performance is a BIG concern. At what point in a pilots career should this be learned, I suggest PPL not post ATPL type Rating or recurrent training.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 15:25
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 274
SOPS if you're frame of mind coming to work is how you described then maybe this isn't the place for you. I mean no disrespect but I've been here 10 years and not once have I thought about the things you have mentioned during an approach or go around. Someone here mentioned that under pressure anyone can forget an SOP or tech knowledge but your job is to keep cool under the gun that's why they pay you the pocket money. You have taken the command out of the captain; which is making a decision, living with it and most of all; able to walk away from it.

Speed2height, said it spot on. This is a big boys airline, if you need spoon feeding, again I'll say it, this might not be the place for you.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 15:59
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UAE
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10 years ago nee joiners didn't need 'spoon feeding'. They had a lot of experience before they came to Dubai. The recruits have changed, the airline hasn't.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 16:02
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
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https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19930818-0

Seems this fatigue thing has been known about for a while.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 16:51
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
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I talked to one of the guys in the flight deck of that flight. It was the late 90's back in US when we spoke- he had some years to reflect. The way he described the fatigue was powerful - scary - he said they were essentially incapacitated by it.

Funnily enough because of his honesty & humility he was hired by the FAA as an inspector and passed on his experiences to those who followed, his insight was valued and used to help the next generation learn and improve.

Different time different place.

The Complacency email today was another groan moment in a long line of primitive man mgt that is embedded in the culture here. Yes it was polite and well written but...

One cannot help but feel it's anothr "lazy pilots" moment - which ATC referred to us at that fateful meeting all those years ago that has changed fit ops since.

Moscow was a serious incident and the msg today unfortunately does not bode well for the poor guys caught in the crosshairs regardless of their errors or lack thereof.
Family lives upended - we hope not.

I looked up the opposite of COMPLACENCY the best the web could come up with was yahoo.answers => MOTIVATED

So the third/ninth floor needs to fight complacency by motivating.

You do not do that by:

Downgrading 330 skippers due seat number change
Reneging on the Freighter contract
Offering more money to those outside the property than on.
Flying pilots to the bone for 5 years with a mantra - don't like it leave
Discontinue Housing allowances for those planning to use it
Create a Punitive culture - final warning for operational errors over intentional misdeeds
Delay upgrade for 1 sim repeat - by two years
Neglect to write to the pilots and explain the current education allowance which has been done every July since mid noughties
Neglect to write the pay review letter
Let 100's of the most experienced pilots go without offering a lifestyle roster balance
Fail to keep up with inflation, in fact fall far behind.
Fail to back a skipper over a VIP customer.
Lowering minimums to a regional level

The list goes on.

Correcting the above will cost some money but infinitely less than the consequences if the complacency continues.

The echo that seems to be ringing throughout the halls lately - only a matter of time.

Signs of low morale and endemic complacency are to be found regularly.

Stop shoddy treatment of pilots, respect contracts - motivation will follow - it's called long term investing.

Red carpet @ HQ to MOL here a coupe of years ago - how ironic in today's world.

Last edited by fliion; 17th Sep 2017 at 19:11.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 17:34
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
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Just look at Rostov. That is what I think that fatigue does to a crew.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 17:40
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: on earth
Posts: 302
The fatigue factor is most probably involved in the Rostov accident BUT far from being enough to fully explain the disaster...
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 18:08
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Nail on the head fliion.
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