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EK - AAR meeting, sensible points to make.

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EK - AAR meeting, sensible points to make.

Old 19th Mar 2016, 10:13
  #1 (permalink)  
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EK - AAR meeting, sensible points to make.

So, we all have our thoughts on why there is a problem, who caused it etc etc.

If you had been invited, what would you tell him he needs to do and offer (not interested in the "tell him to ........ off" brigade, start your own thread).

Some points for me:

Substantial pay rise on basic to improve the provident fund.

Reduced overtime trigger point.

Education payments to 21 in line with Qatar.

Managers promoted on ability to manage.

2nd ALT.

Part time rosters.

helen-damnation is offline  
Old 19th Mar 2016, 10:28
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In just about everywhere else on the Globe, in industry when a company has major retention problems, brand "slip", bad press etc etc, the person at the top is changed along with his cronies.

Cannot see that happening here imho.

AAR's opinion of those who fly "his" jets is well documented. Opinions that negative and extreme are deeply set and unlikely to be altered. There is no trust or mutual respect now, hence the train will continue on its current path until the "driver" is replaced.
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 10:54
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In just about everywhere else on the Globe, in industry when a company has major retention problems, brand "slip", bad press etc etc, the person at the top is changed along with his cronies.
After a failed attempt to "get ship back on track"

But you're right that won't happen.
ExDubai is online now  
Old 19th Mar 2016, 11:13
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80 hour month roster again. Pay OT (at an approriate rate) till crewed to a level where that can happen.

Tweak the rostering system so it works with more choices. Should be no issue when the hours are back down.

Credit for all duties - sim, gs and leave.

Fix leave. Credit for leave so they are more than just days off. PROPER credit for leave.

Pay increase.


Last edited by Trader; 19th Mar 2016 at 11:15. Reason: fixed
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 11:36
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30% pay increase
AlanPardew is offline  
Old 19th Mar 2016, 11:59
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not sure why you opened a second thread on this. Anyway, if you go through my detailed post in the other thread I think the main questions for EK management must be:

- Do you think flying 43% more than a Lufthansa pilot is permanently safe ?
- Do you think flying 43% more than a Lufthansa pilot is healthy ?
- How do you think our families are coping with this situation ?
- How can you be surprised that we want to escape ?

And the questions from the big boss to AAR should be:

- If I am more than 1,500 pilots short today what do I do if the authorities start to hold me to the same standards as all the other big airlines ?
- Do we hire 1,500 pilots over night ? - or -
- Do we cut the programme by 30% ?
- How much is your brilliant idea going to cost me to order airplanes but stop hiring drivers in 2013?
- Are you the right person to fix an airline that wasn't broken before your derailed it ?
in freedom is offline  
Old 19th Mar 2016, 12:22
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This would be my dream sheet but I haven't been invited. Constructive debate leading to a better company and a safer organisation.

Working Practices:
1. Credit returned to productivity scheme for leave and ground duties
2. Productivity level returned to 84 Hours / 31 days
3. Long term commitment to increase crewing levels to avoid unnecessary overtime
4. Sign-on time to match actual on duty time
5. Job Share/Part-time available after a certain number of years service

6. FRMS to actually be implemented.
a. 6 years it still isn't a living system
b. Fatigue is a long-term issue but the EK SAFE model is short-term
c. Fatigue reduction measures must be implemented and not cancelled due commercial expediency
d. Flight Safety to be a truly separate entity from Fleet
e. Fatigue to be dealt with by Safety, and not coercive Fleet managers

7. Real no penalty safety reporting system to remove fear factor
8. Recognition that errors are made and honest errors should not be punished

9. Increase to basic pay to reflect cost of living increases since 2008
10. Recognition that the increment is contractual and not a pay-rise
11. Productivity payment increased to reflect drafted for duty outside of contracted hours (2 1/2 x Pay minimum) and fiscally punitive to company as encouragement to resolve crewing levels

12. SVP+ to be able to communicate upwards directly to board level to raise serious concerns.
13. Managers/Commanders given authority to act rather than just accountability and responsibility for when it goes wrong
14. Cross department communication encouraged

In a nutshell, "put the sticks away and buy some carrots!"

Last edited by ekwhistleblower; 22nd Mar 2016 at 08:50. Reason: point added and typo
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Old 20th Mar 2016, 00:08
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in freedom

Because yours is not the only opinion!

I'm hoping that someone who is going may put these points to AAR.
helen-damnation is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2016, 00:34
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Lets put on a show

I don''t mean to sound negative.. this is all business strategy
They already have a preplanned of action...having the meeting is a mean to justify that they consulted the pilots before initiating their changes.

Their plan would most likely be an increase in pay ( keep in mind money is how they buy your time ), and better work rules. They are not gonna reduce your productivity in anyway.

All this is taking place only caz of ppl leaving to go back to their 'first world ' countries...had the airlines not been hiring ....nothing would have changed
A320CaptDav is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2016, 00:42
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HD, I don't claim to have the only opinion. I would have just preferred to keep the discussion in one thread.
I assume that no one who attends the meeting can truly speak his mind unless he is leaving anyway. In Dubai there is no concept of free speech or a constructive dialogue.
I see this meeting as nothing more than a first crack in AAR's absolute rule. The effects of what he has done to the company are becoming too obvious.
But it's good to share on this forum what we would like to say in the meeting. And sometimes our thoughts here end up sort of in the right place ;-)
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Old 20th Mar 2016, 05:08
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It's all going to be a scam anyways... First hiccup in the world economy and they will steal anything they "give" and it will be status quo again.

Yelling at the wall will probably have a larger impact.
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Old 20th Mar 2016, 05:27
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CaptDav hit the nail on the head,

EK has a business strategy, they know how many pilots they need and can train, they have no plans to change the working conditions except to get back to 42 of days of non credited vacation and maybe drop the overtime threshold to 84 or 85 hours, the industry average in most parts of the world.

The only thing EK can not figure out is how much, or better said, how little money it will take to stop the bleeding.

AAR can't ask the local pilots this question, they can't leave except to other GCC states, plus their pay and retirement package is different to ours.

AAR can't go to the expat management or training pilots, they live in a different world then the expat line pilots.

AAR has to find out from the expat line pilots how much it will take to buy us off and we can all be bought for some amount of money.

AAR will have these meetings and sit there and listen, but the only thing he will be listening for is a number.

Last edited by north flyer; 20th Mar 2016 at 17:47.
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Old 20th Mar 2016, 05:44
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Does anyone else think this years Profit share meeting will be delayed as they might have to re calculate next years pilot wage package as well as training costs. Also if done in March can it be used as a operating cost in this year. Ie lower the overall profit .. In years past this time of year saw expenses differed til the next financial year.
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Old 20th Mar 2016, 11:01
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in freedom

Fair point

My thought was to keep the thread on one topic with people being able to put in their ideas and keep the other stuff separate.

One further idea; in increase in the number of pay increments. We have a number of folks who are at or nearing the top of the scale.
helen-damnation is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2016, 17:33
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Well my top three would be:
1) Money
2) Money
3) More money!

I, too, was of the opinion the other 'lifestyle' issues were more important but I have re-evaluated.

For one, in almost 9 years, I have had all 42 days of leave exactly one year. Don't think that will ever change.

At the first fleet forum, JA said two things that gave me pause; pilots don't really do this for the money and Dubai is a great place to live.

EK thinks people are coming here because they desperately want to live here. I know, for me, that is far from the case. Dubai is an ok place but not close to being one of the places in the world I would 'choose' to be. It certainly doesn't earn a 'home town' discount!!

Which also means if I am going to be living somewhere that isn't really where I want to be, then, yes the money is important. I need to prepare for life after this place and I don't get the luxury 'local' pension.

So while the other things are considerations, I think a significant boost to our money is the one thing that might help improve retention and recruitment. That will enable some improvements in the other areas.
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Old 20th Mar 2016, 18:36
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RBS, well put!
Aluminium shuffler is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2016, 19:33
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As RBS said, Dubai isn't high on my list of aspirational places to live either. The fact that it is ok is the reason that I'm here for the money, and not China or Saudi. And the money could be better.
Calmcavok is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2016, 19:43
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Throwing money at me, alone, would only make me happy until I've found another job!
kcar is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2016, 19:46
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So it should be attacked "young ones" style...Dear fascist bully boy, give us our money you [email protected]@rd.

Should work.
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Old 21st Mar 2016, 02:49
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A320CaptDav is correct in my opinion...

EK already has a plan to the pilots to stop the outflow of crew, and this meeting is just a way to show (hollywood style) to mostly media and possibly company minions that they're concerned for your well being.

Don't be naive to think they're looking out for you. When in history has EK ever done something for the complete positive to the pilot??

It's already a done deal whatever it is.... This is just for show.


Last edited by Kapitanleutnant; 21st Mar 2016 at 04:26.

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