Middle East Doubt
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 113
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From: SEA
Dear AGR:
Nothing wrong with the ME, if you are aware that it is not your country, not your culture and are willing to accept it. Place is safe , clean, the airlines you are considering solid and career possibilities are good.
Like everywhere you will find bitter people that will hijack your thread over some either moral, language or race supremacy issue.... do not be bothered. As said before, just apply and come and make your own assessment of the situation. At the moment I dare say that the best package is being offered by QR and they rather have a well balanced management and crew nationality mixture. Problem is, Doha is not the best place to live, but then again nobody comes to work in the ME for the lifestyle, right? Then the next best package is EK and Dubai is the better city to live in, but you might run into the white supremacist bunch you've just met, that will segregate you for your accent, as if some of them were easy to understand. And the other Airline has a good work environment but the package has not kept up with the rise in cost of living .
Hope it helps.
Nothing wrong with the ME, if you are aware that it is not your country, not your culture and are willing to accept it. Place is safe , clean, the airlines you are considering solid and career possibilities are good.
Like everywhere you will find bitter people that will hijack your thread over some either moral, language or race supremacy issue.... do not be bothered. As said before, just apply and come and make your own assessment of the situation. At the moment I dare say that the best package is being offered by QR and they rather have a well balanced management and crew nationality mixture. Problem is, Doha is not the best place to live, but then again nobody comes to work in the ME for the lifestyle, right? Then the next best package is EK and Dubai is the better city to live in, but you might run into the white supremacist bunch you've just met, that will segregate you for your accent, as if some of them were easy to understand. And the other Airline has a good work environment but the package has not kept up with the rise in cost of living .
Hope it helps.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 625
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From: Dusty West
Richard,
Those are pretty strong words and offensive at that. Your connotation and use of wording suggests that the "whites" here wear "Glory suits' and burn crosses, or perhaps you mean that they are better represented by the more gentle NAZI party?
I know a hell of a lot of pilots here who are not white who demand the same standards of RT, what would you call them?
Shame really, your post has good points but they are lost in a sea of ignorance.
Nothing more has been said here than "Strive for and use English proficiency". Perhaps you are unaware but the internationally accepted language in aviation is ENGLISH. Its was also recognized by the worlds governing bodies that language proficiency was a global issue and needed to be dealt with hence the introduction of english language proficiency testing in aviation.
There have been many lives lost in aviation attributed directly to poor radio telephony and understanding of English.
In this business, we play for keeps, and nothing less is acceptable. Those who have ventured outside of the USA, Canada and the UK only know how important this is, don't dilute the issue with such a ridiculous statement
Those are pretty strong words and offensive at that. Your connotation and use of wording suggests that the "whites" here wear "Glory suits' and burn crosses, or perhaps you mean that they are better represented by the more gentle NAZI party?
I know a hell of a lot of pilots here who are not white who demand the same standards of RT, what would you call them?
Shame really, your post has good points but they are lost in a sea of ignorance.
Nothing more has been said here than "Strive for and use English proficiency". Perhaps you are unaware but the internationally accepted language in aviation is ENGLISH. Its was also recognized by the worlds governing bodies that language proficiency was a global issue and needed to be dealt with hence the introduction of english language proficiency testing in aviation.
There have been many lives lost in aviation attributed directly to poor radio telephony and understanding of English.
In this business, we play for keeps, and nothing less is acceptable. Those who have ventured outside of the USA, Canada and the UK only know how important this is, don't dilute the issue with such a ridiculous statement
Last edited by The Outlaw; 10th November 2015 at 06:05.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: SEA
Outlaw:
I stand corrected and I do apologise,you are absolutely right, just tired of the "intellectual bullies" that hijack honest threads.....
Just look how many proper answers the this guy got, he didn't post to have his english evaluated....
But once again, apologies... should not have generalised..
Cheers mate
I stand corrected and I do apologise,you are absolutely right, just tired of the "intellectual bullies" that hijack honest threads.....
Just look how many proper answers the this guy got, he didn't post to have his english evaluated....
But once again, apologies... should not have generalised..
Cheers mate
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 105
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From: France
By using the word "might", in my understanding of a non native speaker (and level 4), richard has stated about a possibility or an eventuality.
And yes, "the internationally accepted language in aviation in (or is) ENGLISH." :-)
And yes, "the internationally accepted language in aviation in (or is) ENGLISH." :-)
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
From: Within
Very Helpfull Richard
Thanks
Thanks
Ask him what "Nothing wrong with the ME, if you are aware that it is not your country, not your culture and are willing to accept it." means.
And then ask him what "And the other Airline has a good work environment" means.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 625
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From: Dusty West
notapilot15
Your handle says it all.
The english language is still used on aerodrome ground, tower as well as most arrival, departure and en-route ATC frequencies.
There are very few areas in the world that actually use CPDLC albeit it is increasing very slowly.
Therefore it is just as important now (if not more) than it ever was for proper use and discipline of RT and comprehension of English as applied to aviation.
Your handle says it all.
The english language is still used on aerodrome ground, tower as well as most arrival, departure and en-route ATC frequencies.
There are very few areas in the world that actually use CPDLC albeit it is increasing very slowly.
Therefore it is just as important now (if not more) than it ever was for proper use and discipline of RT and comprehension of English as applied to aviation.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 625
Likes: 0
From: Dusty West
Richard,
I apologize if I came across as a little curt.
I normally do not side much with the company given their treatment of the rank and file, rostering practices etc. I am however in full agreement of the way they filter candidates based on their lack of understanding of English and how it applies to aviation. For the most part I find it is pretty decent but there are some occasions where some of our guys and girls (of ANY color or background) have an abhorrent disregard for RT standards.
The controller in Iran will be unsure why the American flight is climbing to "three-five-ohh"...what does that mean? Is he climbing in 35 minutes? What is his current level? Maybe it was his airspeed? It makes the controller unsure and puts doubt in the whole exchange. Might work in North America but not here.
When I first arrived here too many years ago, I was called out on my RT which pissed me off a little at first. As I gained more experience with the route network I realized that the "old Aussie" was actually correct and so made it my mission to do it correctly. Think of flying to Moscow with CB's all around, complicated altimetry procedures and adding some poor RT to really crank up the workload.
Much like the SOP's, if you learn it correctly the first time, there is no fear when the 6 month check comes around.
I apologize if I came across as a little curt.
I normally do not side much with the company given their treatment of the rank and file, rostering practices etc. I am however in full agreement of the way they filter candidates based on their lack of understanding of English and how it applies to aviation. For the most part I find it is pretty decent but there are some occasions where some of our guys and girls (of ANY color or background) have an abhorrent disregard for RT standards.
The controller in Iran will be unsure why the American flight is climbing to "three-five-ohh"...what does that mean? Is he climbing in 35 minutes? What is his current level? Maybe it was his airspeed? It makes the controller unsure and puts doubt in the whole exchange. Might work in North America but not here.
When I first arrived here too many years ago, I was called out on my RT which pissed me off a little at first. As I gained more experience with the route network I realized that the "old Aussie" was actually correct and so made it my mission to do it correctly. Think of flying to Moscow with CB's all around, complicated altimetry procedures and adding some poor RT to really crank up the workload.
Much like the SOP's, if you learn it correctly the first time, there is no fear when the 6 month check comes around.
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 415
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From: USA
The Outlaw
The English used in aviation communications is far simple than language cops on forums expect.
OP may be on a mobile device with auto correct off (or) using a speech to text converter software (or) using a language translator (very unlikely). ATCs deal with crew from all over the world and I presume they are professional and very considerate to all.
Now a days, heavy mx is done by folks who don't know how to read/write English. That should be a major concern than improper spelling, grammar, capitalization, punctuation, too many/few articles in a para ... in a forum post.
The English used in aviation communications is far simple than language cops on forums expect.
OP may be on a mobile device with auto correct off (or) using a speech to text converter software (or) using a language translator (very unlikely). ATCs deal with crew from all over the world and I presume they are professional and very considerate to all.
Now a days, heavy mx is done by folks who don't know how to read/write English. That should be a major concern than improper spelling, grammar, capitalization, punctuation, too many/few articles in a para ... in a forum post.
Joined: Nov 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 444
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From: Terra Firma
The problem with doubt is that the result can be for better or worse. There is much truth said on the ME forums about terms and conditions when filtering through the drivel.
My suggestion to anyone considering the move. If you really cannot stand it any longer in your home country for either work or political reasons then come. You have no idea how difficult it will be to leave once here when your family are stable with the kids in school etc.
The jets are lovely and BIG and shiny, the guys are generally a nice bunch of people to work with BUT, you can only take so much of the hassles, disrespect, annoyances etc etc. There will come a time when you wish to return to the life you left no matter what you think of it right now. You will have difficulties when that time comes to move home due to commitments. I can tell you now, it is a lot easier to get in than it is to get out. Make very sure you are making the right decision and please understand that the sand is definitely not a greener option than grass, even with cow 'sheet' on the grass along the way.
The salary might seem good but food prices in UAE are several times more expensive than most western countries.
Jack
Testing ICAO English there with the good aviation term 'drivel' I hope its meaning is not lost in the reading.
My suggestion to anyone considering the move. If you really cannot stand it any longer in your home country for either work or political reasons then come. You have no idea how difficult it will be to leave once here when your family are stable with the kids in school etc.
The jets are lovely and BIG and shiny, the guys are generally a nice bunch of people to work with BUT, you can only take so much of the hassles, disrespect, annoyances etc etc. There will come a time when you wish to return to the life you left no matter what you think of it right now. You will have difficulties when that time comes to move home due to commitments. I can tell you now, it is a lot easier to get in than it is to get out. Make very sure you are making the right decision and please understand that the sand is definitely not a greener option than grass, even with cow 'sheet' on the grass along the way.
The salary might seem good but food prices in UAE are several times more expensive than most western countries.
Jack
Testing ICAO English there with the good aviation term 'drivel' I hope its meaning is not lost in the reading.