Lowered requirements Emirates
A full 400 hours on the jungle jet and still no call?
That's terrible.
That's terrible.
short flights long nights
My God. People apply with 400 hours on jets, their applications are submitted for 16 hours and they are not getting calls, what is going on.
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For the record it took about a week and a half to hear back. Our experience is vastly different. I only have 6500 hours with 3000 of that being DH8 command. I am not very experienced because I don't have jet time.
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Cadets are whole different story. They get a huge amount of training, it's subsidised by the country. I don't dislike the guys, they are well trained, however very synthetically. I can't trust them the way i do with expat FOs.
You would never be able to convince EK to give so much equivalent training to lower qualified applicants.
There lies my main concern: Training.
They will probably start with a new syllabus for TP and similar newbees, as they might do with non-rated DECs (
). But that means a lot more SIM hours, even more trainers absorbed, even less leave for the line guys, until some supremely witty desk driver will slowly and silently turn back the wheel to where training is today, pretending that experience shows it ample and sufficient for EK. The GCAA will rubber stamp anything anyway. Everything to keep metal flying no matter how. No one shall lose face!
On the line we will be confronted with many new nice colleagues who however need a lot more coaching and have outstanding training holes.
Mind you: Not with trainers who can block one nice flight a month (preferably to my home town, blocking 20 out of 30 days for my bids) and the nice privilege to have assured 5 days off in a row and appended to the next ones on the next roster. (Don't get me wrong, it's not an attack against trainers, it's against unfair privileges).
No, this time it will be with shattered skippers like me, working 90+ hours, through 12 hours of time difference with minimum rest and days off, having an outstanding leave balance of 30 days.
It's simply drilling very tiny new holes into a slice of the cheese. But even tiny ones can add up to the big ones the situation has already drilled into others.
You would never be able to convince EK to give so much equivalent training to lower qualified applicants.
There lies my main concern: Training.
They will probably start with a new syllabus for TP and similar newbees, as they might do with non-rated DECs (
). But that means a lot more SIM hours, even more trainers absorbed, even less leave for the line guys, until some supremely witty desk driver will slowly and silently turn back the wheel to where training is today, pretending that experience shows it ample and sufficient for EK. The GCAA will rubber stamp anything anyway. Everything to keep metal flying no matter how. No one shall lose face!On the line we will be confronted with many new nice colleagues who however need a lot more coaching and have outstanding training holes.
Mind you: Not with trainers who can block one nice flight a month (preferably to my home town, blocking 20 out of 30 days for my bids) and the nice privilege to have assured 5 days off in a row and appended to the next ones on the next roster. (Don't get me wrong, it's not an attack against trainers, it's against unfair privileges).
No, this time it will be with shattered skippers like me, working 90+ hours, through 12 hours of time difference with minimum rest and days off, having an outstanding leave balance of 30 days.
It's simply drilling very tiny new holes into a slice of the cheese. But even tiny ones can add up to the big ones the situation has already drilled into others.
Last edited by glofish; 17th Sep 2015 at 15:13.
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TP or not TP
Hi Guys
I followed your posts quite a bit
What i can see is that there are still People out there how have not the little bit of an idea what TP flying is.
First yes Qantas or South African express is flying in limited areas, still serving on an entriere continent to do not see a lot of different weather.
Ask a guy from Europe or Canada and it will be a lot of a different story.
In Europe and Canada are TP guys available with multiple 1000 hours on both seats. They serve an average of 4 to 6 sectors a day in 5 days patterns. Do you really believe that a big Jet captain on the fat wide body can come even close to that experience if you start looking into flown sectors.
a typical TP commander makes a T/O or LDG decision up to 6 times a day, with all the problems you can expect from it. Yes the airplane is smaller, there are less Pax on board, but the turn times are limited accordingly. So in-fact time to make the decisions on ground is as limited as they are on a bigger airplane. Having said that, these guys do not download FPL or print a ATIS msg. on the center console, and the performance calculations are done old school, mostly without fancy laptops.
Flt Bee, Wideroe, SAS, Croatia and many others are flying all over Europe, mostly small airports with sometimes extremely performance limited runways and sometime really funny weather. If you have time one day open some charts in LIDO and look what kinds of airports are out there and consider a TP guy is flying there in bad weather. And he does it on a daily basis.
the average EK pilot is lucky to do one DE-ICE and 2 low vis appr. a year. sum it up and will what a TP makes in one season.
TP Fly
CAT 2 from 100ft manual.
CAT3a from a 1000ft manual with HGS
in eng fail condition manual up to 1000ft, AP limit
just for the none believers! A Dash 8 400 has the same approach speed like a A330 and with prop anti ice on even 20kts more.
imagine going with that speed to 1800 meter runway, after a 6 degree loc appr.
It climbs with full load up to 6000fpm initial climb(you get up to 4000 maybe 5000ft) ,up to 10000ft with max 3000, a bit more if you squeez it and than with up to 2500fpm to 16000ft. unfortunately from 16000ft the performance of the props start decreasing due to the density.
Impressive number is
25000 in 16 min or 14nm 12000ft on 60000lbs To weight
consider this so expect a TP pilot to well more relaxed on workload provided that this guys have from there skills a way better cockpit scan and workload management.
It is an EK thing that to make it rocket science and it the EK instructors how believe that there is only one way to rom.
Do you really believe that 16hr straight from one continent to another, whilst sleeping half the time gives you judgment experience.
Lets say it that way. What the wide body pilot does is not more than an enhancement from previous skills.
Fact is also that certification requirements of civil commercial aircraft provides certain things which have always the same impact on weight and size of an airplane and therefore if you have understood the theory and you start anticipating the size, all the aircrafts are the same.
Conclusion - if you give a TP guy a training and the candidate has the right attitude he will be as good as anyone else.
1 PAX one a TP deserves as much safety as 500 do on a 380, responsibility cannot be counted with PAX numbers, each pilot says differently should think about his own attitude.
thanks for your time
I followed your posts quite a bit
What i can see is that there are still People out there how have not the little bit of an idea what TP flying is.
First yes Qantas or South African express is flying in limited areas, still serving on an entriere continent to do not see a lot of different weather.
Ask a guy from Europe or Canada and it will be a lot of a different story.
In Europe and Canada are TP guys available with multiple 1000 hours on both seats. They serve an average of 4 to 6 sectors a day in 5 days patterns. Do you really believe that a big Jet captain on the fat wide body can come even close to that experience if you start looking into flown sectors.
a typical TP commander makes a T/O or LDG decision up to 6 times a day, with all the problems you can expect from it. Yes the airplane is smaller, there are less Pax on board, but the turn times are limited accordingly. So in-fact time to make the decisions on ground is as limited as they are on a bigger airplane. Having said that, these guys do not download FPL or print a ATIS msg. on the center console, and the performance calculations are done old school, mostly without fancy laptops.
Flt Bee, Wideroe, SAS, Croatia and many others are flying all over Europe, mostly small airports with sometimes extremely performance limited runways and sometime really funny weather. If you have time one day open some charts in LIDO and look what kinds of airports are out there and consider a TP guy is flying there in bad weather. And he does it on a daily basis.
the average EK pilot is lucky to do one DE-ICE and 2 low vis appr. a year. sum it up and will what a TP makes in one season.
TP Fly
CAT 2 from 100ft manual.
CAT3a from a 1000ft manual with HGS
in eng fail condition manual up to 1000ft, AP limit
just for the none believers! A Dash 8 400 has the same approach speed like a A330 and with prop anti ice on even 20kts more.
imagine going with that speed to 1800 meter runway, after a 6 degree loc appr.
It climbs with full load up to 6000fpm initial climb(you get up to 4000 maybe 5000ft) ,up to 10000ft with max 3000, a bit more if you squeez it and than with up to 2500fpm to 16000ft. unfortunately from 16000ft the performance of the props start decreasing due to the density.
Impressive number is
25000 in 16 min or 14nm 12000ft on 60000lbs To weight
consider this so expect a TP pilot to well more relaxed on workload provided that this guys have from there skills a way better cockpit scan and workload management.
It is an EK thing that to make it rocket science and it the EK instructors how believe that there is only one way to rom.
Do you really believe that 16hr straight from one continent to another, whilst sleeping half the time gives you judgment experience.
Lets say it that way. What the wide body pilot does is not more than an enhancement from previous skills.
Fact is also that certification requirements of civil commercial aircraft provides certain things which have always the same impact on weight and size of an airplane and therefore if you have understood the theory and you start anticipating the size, all the aircrafts are the same.
Conclusion - if you give a TP guy a training and the candidate has the right attitude he will be as good as anyone else.
1 PAX one a TP deserves as much safety as 500 do on a 380, responsibility cannot be counted with PAX numbers, each pilot says differently should think about his own attitude.
thanks for your time
Last edited by WB1900; 28th Sep 2015 at 07:05. Reason: I am sorry for the wrong numbers, that post should have been on hold to check a couple old docs for the numbers
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Glo has nailed it...this time its gone too far, they have deluded themselves to believing this crap because it fits a perceived solution to the crises....why not just put your wife/girlfriend/dog in the right seat..itll probably come to that soon enough anyway...the dilution of product integrity is the same in all counts.
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Guys i don't really get it what's the problem with TP pilots???????in some airlines you have F/O's that go from ATR straight to A330 without problems
Because u started your carrer on TP you can't go to heavy jet?
Because u started your carrer on TP you can't go to heavy jet?
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FFS dch8d, pay attention... It's not the TP guys that are the problem, it's an airline that's suffering from chronic shortages and doesn't have the resources to train said pilots. It's not rocket science, it's merely a lack of facilities to train guys into a system that's falling apart...
Most of us flew TP's and then went onto jets. Mind you, some of the 'I've got 400hrs TP time, applied 12 hrs ago and haven't had a response, what's going on?' rubbish, doesn't exactly inspire confidence...
Most of us flew TP's and then went onto jets. Mind you, some of the 'I've got 400hrs TP time, applied 12 hrs ago and haven't had a response, what's going on?' rubbish, doesn't exactly inspire confidence...
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Emirates have already a lot of local cadets that go from the piper 34 with 200 hours total to the RHS A330 or B777, so please, stop bull****ing on turboprops guys with a lot of great experience. having myself started on tp a few years ago then medium jet i can tell you that flying a jet is a lot easier and a lot more boring. Now if emirates crews are modern slaves desesperate to fly 1000 hours of bigbig jet all over the world, based in the desert,mthen that's another matter.
short flights long nights
Read comments above yours SeaSex man. The concern is the training given, not the person.
Glofish, you got it all correct.
Glofish, you got it all correct.
short flights long nights
No it's not. There are many diffrent training syllabuses, but I will let someone else explain it, if they can be bothered.
If you take the time to read this thread, it is explained.
If you take the time to read this thread, it is explained.
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dhc8d- the issue is not TP pilots. It is low houred TP pilots. If they hire a TP captain with 5-6000 hours he would be the IDEAL candidate- in my opinion. He can fly, he can make decisions and has been flying in the wx, up and down for quite a few years. Again, imo only, I think he is a great candidate and better that the 2500 hour FO off a jet.
But that is NOT what they are looking at. They are looking at TP who barely have an ATPL. That is getting desperate.
The issue is always the LEVEL of experience.
Cadet pilots cannot even be compared because the amount of training and checking they go through is many orders above what the 1500 hour pilot with 200 hours on a TP has been through.
But that is NOT what they are looking at. They are looking at TP who barely have an ATPL. That is getting desperate.
The issue is always the LEVEL of experience.
Cadet pilots cannot even be compared because the amount of training and checking they go through is many orders above what the 1500 hour pilot with 200 hours on a TP has been through.
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I'm old school ... ex military, bush flying (various singles and light piston twins), corporate (small turbo props) and then the 707. Transition to the 707 was a big jump for me but not impossible to overcome in a relatively short period of time. Flew 'heavies' for seven years before landing a 744 position.
The transition to glass was a challenge but again, was overcome with time. 744 > 330 > 777. The 330 transition was another challenge ...
The training environment in which one finds themselves is all important, as is the age of the pilot. The youngsters soak it up but the older one is, the harder it becomes. I've been in that position and seen others in it.
EK training is of a very high standard. There is very little spoon feeding. One has to be 'on it' from the start and the pressure doesn't stop until one is checked out to the line. EK is not an outfit where it pays to rest upon one's laurels either.
Recurrent sim is always just around the corner and many fall foul of the system if their discipline, initiative and perseverance has waned. It's called resilience here, and you'd better bring a lot of it with you.
One is crucified by the workload but at the same time given no slack because of it.
As I mentioned earlier, the training standard is high and one needs to not only ingest information as if distributed by a fire hose, but retain it ... all of it, all the time.
One's experience, language skills, technical aptitude, age and ability to withstand an unpleasantly high level of stress will either hinder or help.
Five sectors a day in a TP, or 15 000 hours on heavy jets, everybody starts here at 'ground zero'. Your previous life means very little. All it will do is help you to cope, or not, as the case may be.
The transition to glass was a challenge but again, was overcome with time. 744 > 330 > 777. The 330 transition was another challenge ...
The training environment in which one finds themselves is all important, as is the age of the pilot. The youngsters soak it up but the older one is, the harder it becomes. I've been in that position and seen others in it.
EK training is of a very high standard. There is very little spoon feeding. One has to be 'on it' from the start and the pressure doesn't stop until one is checked out to the line. EK is not an outfit where it pays to rest upon one's laurels either.
Recurrent sim is always just around the corner and many fall foul of the system if their discipline, initiative and perseverance has waned. It's called resilience here, and you'd better bring a lot of it with you.
One is crucified by the workload but at the same time given no slack because of it.
As I mentioned earlier, the training standard is high and one needs to not only ingest information as if distributed by a fire hose, but retain it ... all of it, all the time.
One's experience, language skills, technical aptitude, age and ability to withstand an unpleasantly high level of stress will either hinder or help.
Five sectors a day in a TP, or 15 000 hours on heavy jets, everybody starts here at 'ground zero'. Your previous life means very little. All it will do is help you to cope, or not, as the case may be.
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Look guys it's simple, as an employer you develop a wage package that will on a whole match the terms and conditions that you expect an employee to sign up to, as time goes on naturally the terms and conditions change and so naturally the package has to change with it, if the expected work load for example increases then as an employee one would expect in good faith to see a dollar value to match said increase! Someone who is then considering taking employment with a company can then look at the what he or she can expect in return for there time and experience and decided if they think the package offered is good enough or not!
So what do we see happening now at EK, requirements have been lowered to rock bottom! Why is this? Is it because there are no more suitable jet time candidates out there? The answer to this is clearly no! The reason why EK has throw the net out wider is purely because what they have it offer in return for what you are going to give doesn't balance, all the guys at Ryr and easy etc look at what's on offer, consider time to command and are clearly not impressed! therefore EK are having to chase after people who will accept what is on offer, and I'm sorry to all you TP guys out there but that's it as I see it in a nut shell!
And yes I'm well aware that there is any amount of good TP guys out there!
I like many others have worked for many airlines and we have all seen very good captains and very ordinary captains, very good FO's and very ordinary FO's, and it's no different in Emirates, so sooner or later the dice will roll and a not so good captain will be paired up with a not so good new FO and off into the night they'll go to some ****ty airport in the middle of the monsoon season and the holes "glofish" speaks of, big or small will start to line up! Boy oh boy this forum will light up then!
So what do we see happening now at EK, requirements have been lowered to rock bottom! Why is this? Is it because there are no more suitable jet time candidates out there? The answer to this is clearly no! The reason why EK has throw the net out wider is purely because what they have it offer in return for what you are going to give doesn't balance, all the guys at Ryr and easy etc look at what's on offer, consider time to command and are clearly not impressed! therefore EK are having to chase after people who will accept what is on offer, and I'm sorry to all you TP guys out there but that's it as I see it in a nut shell!
And yes I'm well aware that there is any amount of good TP guys out there!
I like many others have worked for many airlines and we have all seen very good captains and very ordinary captains, very good FO's and very ordinary FO's, and it's no different in Emirates, so sooner or later the dice will roll and a not so good captain will be paired up with a not so good new FO and off into the night they'll go to some ****ty airport in the middle of the monsoon season and the holes "glofish" speaks of, big or small will start to line up! Boy oh boy this forum will light up then!
It climbs with full load up to 7000fpm up to 10000ft and than with up to 4000fpm to 16000ft. unfortunately from 16000ft the performance of the props start decreasing due to the density.
Full load up to 7000ftpm? A fully loaded Q400 would be pushing 2000ftpm to 10,000ft on a good day. Even an empty Q400 Doesn't get 7,000ftpm at sea level.
First yes Qantas or South African express is flying in limited areas, still serving on an entriere continent to do not see a lot of different weather.
I like that you are standing up for the TP guys, but your argument has some stunning holes in it.