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To EK pilots - Legality of EK 6221 to DFW on Apr.XX

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To EK pilots - Legality of EK 6221 to DFW on Apr.XX

Old 28th Apr 2015, 12:20
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
Posts: 853
It is 'Captain's Discretion' as has been pointed out above but only after the Captain takes into account the fitness of his crew to extend into discretion.

To me, that means a subjective assessment of how fit the cabin crew would be to handle a pax evac if I stuff up the landing at the end of an extended duty ULR flight.

Can I respectfully suggest that you are putting a legal rod right up your own jacksy if you do not, at the very least, consult with the purser to get a feeling for the cabin crew's fitness to continue into discretion. If you force it on them, something goes wrong and, at the subsequent investigation it transpires that the cabin crew were not considered or consulted then you may well be digging yourself a very big legal hole.

In addition to the above, it is also good CRM and, imho, good command.
Old 28th Apr 2015, 12:29
  #22 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: ghb
Posts: 6
kipper, that's exactly because of selfish tiny mentalities like yours that EK cc are resigning in hundreds every week. God forbid, but for one second imagine that into DFW something happens and you'll have overworked crew having to operate a 380 evacuation... does it cross your mind? Or does it cross your mind that you have half of the crew of that flight on sick at this moment for ear infections, anxiety, sleep problems, etc?

DFW leaves at 2:45 a.m.. Chances are at that time, most of the crew will not be well rested.. so maybe, just maybe I would have taken that into consideration when deciding wether to go through DFW or not. And also the passengers input on that flight which was, for a change, supportive of crew. Not one single complain was heard and btw pax were taking crew names to give compliment reports about them to EK.
heartofspades is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 13:15
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: gutter
Posts: 92
If you use commanders discretion on a ULR, you better have a very clear understanding of what an exceptional circumstance is. If you feel that it is safe to continue with such understanding, having taken into condsideration of ALL your crew, you can exercise discretion.

Get it through your head, you will be SOLELY responsible for any liability. You are responsible for every crew member. You are responsible for every crew members actions. Use the OM-A for your protection or Emirates will hang you with it if something happens. Understand the wording and your responsiblity because any proficient aviation lawyer that EK has the deepest pockets for will shred you, your family and your life.

If you continue, the crew does basic minimum service and spends as much time resting as possible.

EK gets a free walk on your licence and reaps the rewards as we hope for some crumbs, STAY SAFE! The only reason some are bullied is because we havent had an incident or accident YET that would set a precedent.
lowstandard is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 13:26
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 102
The 22 hour ULR limit is just that - there is no discretion going to that limit. Also, the next rest period is only 12 hours and not the preceding duty period!! That was pointed out in an earlier post.....
break dancer is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 13:33
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Inyomama
Posts: 3
A quick check of the facts show that the total duty that day was 21:51 hrs. Long day but legal.

Seems the OP wasn't forthcoming with the truth.
Ketools is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 13:49
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,005
Ok ok ok ....apologies for the tone (now that I've read it sober ; > )

It took me about three minutes to look it up which is my point:

OME Section 1, GENERAL pg 88 Rev 2 para 1&2

"Flights delayed ex-DXB will require a replacement Flight Crew if the projected FDP would exceed total of 22:00 hours. Departures after the specified time with a replacement Crew are subject to the provisions of the individual appendix.

The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis."


Para 12:
"In extraordinary circumstances, and with the agreement of the Fleet Chief Pilot, the limitations included in this section may be waived. The choice to waive these limitations, once approved by the Chief Pilot or his designee, rests solely with the Commander."

So now to your flight and I'm going off what's published in the FOIP for that particular flight - as I believe I'm familiar with the one you are discussing.

The Flight Crew and (by extension you) - dutied on at:

21:50Z (you pushed back 41mins late)
You dutied off at

19:36z in DFW

Your combined duty APPEARS to have been 21hrs 46mins

Before I go on ....is this correct or not?

If it is NOT can you provide the date of flight so that we can corroborate.

(I may be wrong as a bit hazy today after the margueritas :0 )

fliion is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 14:48
  #27 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: ghb
Posts: 6
That is correct, Fillion and thank you for providing up that info.
I do have doubts about the stated time on ground in DME which I believe was longer than what is stated (taxing in and out was absolutely long also given the situation...). But either way, the difference would be of about 30 minutes.

It is a dubious situation where many factors are at stake.
The whole point of this thread was to fuel true and interesting debate to demonstrate precisely how tricky of a situation it is. And you might think it's not important to discuss it, but I can assure it is because it might avoid people, especially cc, from making the same usual judgements right away and feeling (even more) devalued... It would have been an interesting discussion on the day and I believe it would have been useful. But I guess it's easier to ignore 26 tired, cranky and overworked cc and just tell them off with ''it's legal, ok?''

Anyways, guys, thanks a lot for the all the input and wish you the best flights!
Fly safe!
heartofspades is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 16:32
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UAE
Posts: 966
Absolutely, but consulting with the purser is not the same as having a group discussion with all 26 of the Cabin Crew. Even without the group hug and the vote.
BigGeordie is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 18:36
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: >FL310
Posts: 429
Fliion has been nominated as EKs CRMI of the year.
TangoUniform is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 19:23
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,035
break dancer

Please can you tell me where it says the next rest period is only 12 hours? I agree that the "rest provisions contained within the approved FTL scheme are not applicable to ULR operations" but I see nothing about actual minimum times. Not only logic, but common sense, safety and airmanship would dictate that you would require at least the same rest as the preceding duty. 22 hours duty, 22 hours rest. The reference to the normal FTL rest limitations is, in my interpretation, implying that if anything they should be greater. Remember, before EK bastardised the rules from the UK Cap371, a ULR required a minimum of 48 hrs rest. That is evidence that we should be applying a greater margin of safety rather than a lesser one when it comes to ULR rest.

No doubt the Company may try to persuade you otherwise, like any airline would, but it's not their career or licence that's on the line. Remember that.

As for the debate about minimum bunk rest for crew during ULR operations, I hate to tell you all but there isn't any. The Company applies to the regulator with each pairing a rest guide for cabin crew which will be applied for that particular pairing. It's not a mandated rest and is only 'recommended'. Whilst every effort should be made to follow it, it's not compulsory and in unforeseen circumstances, can be 'amended'.

Safe flying ladies and gents.....

harry the cod is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 19:53
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Treasure Island
Posts: 41
22:45 to 19:36 is actually 20:51 duty time...
Long Dong Silver is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 20:02
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Doctor's waiting room
Posts: 696

Regardless of what the limitations are, if you felt that tiredness was affecting you to the extent that it impaired your ability to perform your duties then report it.

On my last flight one of the GR1s came up to the flight deck with a Fatigue Report form as English is not her native language and she asked us to proof read it. I took the time to commend her on putting pen to paper because not enough cabin crew do.

Always remember that anyone can file an ASR too and it is not just a reporting system for flight crew only. ASR forms are carried on every aircraft so there are no excuses for not putting pen to paper. You just need to take a form and fill it in and then hand it to the F/O, who will ensure that it is submitted correctly back in DXB.
Emma Royds is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 20:10
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,005
Long Dong - the FDP starts one hour before sked dep time 2150-2250z

fliion is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 22:38
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,005
Settle down Capt Baptist,

I also served...though Im sure in nothing as 'comprehensive' a role as your vaunted career...and I don't believe in God....so you can take your Godspeed (3 times - seriously?)somewhere else.

The post thread heading regards LEGALITY not what we want or like.

Read the heading of the thread again "Legality of..."

So why don't you tell us whether it was LEGAL or not. I couldnt give a toss whether you agree with his decision or not. He was questioned on his LEGALITY.


Last edited by fliion; 28th Apr 2015 at 22:51.
fliion is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2015, 05:05
  #35 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: ghb
Posts: 6
Thank you all for your contributions!
I just want to bring something up that might be considered fluffy but believe me, it is damn important and EK is so undermining this in their cc management... (previous consulting\psychology\HR management experience here...)

I agree that logistically, involving the purser is much simpler than the whole 380 crew. No arguing there, specially when u have to make decisions on the spot.

But I just wanted to bring something up related to this.
EK is hiring all these kids (average age 21-26 - it's rare to know any new joiners older than this, nowadays..) some straight of college. Most of them, westerners, are well educated, a whole different generation, smart, with access to information and most of them brought up, not with warnings and punishment, but more with negotiation skills by their parents... they do want to be involved, they feel entitled and want to be part of things. If you just shut them down with 'you're doing what I'm telling you and that's it', they will leave (like they have...)! The world is too small for them and it's easy to change nowadays and this kind of disposable policy from EK is totally messing up the company's goal of being the ''aviation gourmet\top of the top'' reference... just go into skytrax and check comments on cabin crew. ahaha...

Sorry for the long post... this stuff was mentioned on the EK forums and I was astonished when the guys listening there said they had never looked at things this way... (wtfff..... i seriously hoped they were joking or something...)
heartofspades is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2015, 06:59
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: South of North
Posts: 655
Modesh yes,CC sign on 1.5 hours prior in DXB compared to pilots 1hr!

Harry-- I agree the CC rest requirements are guidelines and the CAPTAIN can make them fit. Using discretion on the return to DXB I will always have the cc take the same amount of time as discretion for rest or increase their rest, should they have any, by the amount of discretion. This ensures they are fit throughout the flight and for the landing.

That is OUR choice as a captain! We all know the pilots will be using controlled rest so expecting cc to simply work through it, especially considering they are flying 120-130 hours a month, is shameful not to mention dangerous. So you mitigate that by adjusting their rest.
Trader is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2015, 07:13
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,093
Not pretending to be absolutely right, but here's my interpretation of the book:

There is no discretion with ULRs. Discretions are described in another chapter and are also clearly limited. There is a only "maximum permitted limit" for ULRs and that in itself is self explanatory!

After that there is only a waiver of legal limits. Meaning just that: You are outside of any legality, solely and absolutely accountable for it.

The GCAA handed responsibility for that waiver down to the FCP and by that absolve themselves of any liability.
The FCP will hand down this sole waiving responsibility to you as skipper and absolves himself and the company of any liability or responsibility.
He will sweet talk you with 'think of the poor passengers, think of the cost for your company and think of blah, blah, blah', but will leave you alone in the rain in case of the slightest mishap.
As will the poor passengers. They will find a sleazy lawyer to sue the last drop out of you and the press will have a field day with your irresponsible disregard of maximum permissible limits .....

Think hard.

As for rest, i can only think of one minimum, that's 10 hours in a room with a bed. That's what you will get on a ORD, so think hard again: Do you want this after 23 hours or after 15, then continue to destination and have the same minimum rest again and all within clearly defined legal limits?

A no brainer, at least to me.
glofish is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2015, 07:35
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hotel room
Posts: 38
And btw you are lucky it was IAH and not East Coast to be followed by reduced 12 hour Layover after 22 hours of duty per contingency provisions paragraph G
Fear_of_heights is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2015, 08:59
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: evicted
Posts: 337

Personally, I believe operating near the 22hr limit increases the risk factors to the point where a very careful assessment would have to be made.

Exceeding the 22hr limit is just plain negligence and recklessness.

Should some challenging technical malfunction and/or severe weather await at the end of that long duty, I doubt that the crew can perform up to the standards that are expected of pilots by the flying public.
PositiveRate876 is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2015, 16:10
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Treasure Island
Posts: 41

My mistake. Thought that was the sign-on time
Long Dong Silver is offline  

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