EK - Variation 1!
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Laker, I know of at least one case where the skipper refused to go into discretion after he warned SMNC about it. They forced him to go to TRV and promised him a short turn. You obviously can't refuse the first sector, because you are not flying into discretion yet. However he told them he would not fly the return if it meant he would have to go into discretion. Arriving at TRV, he told the ground staff that they needed to push at a certain time. Reply was "impossible". So he left the airplane and went with the crew to a hotel.
In this case, the skipper not only showed 'cojones', but he also took into account the 30 minutes after FDP towards his duty to calculate the minimum rest... :-)
Why you might never have heard of the story? The skipper never got called in because he was in his legal right to do what he did. The company keeps it quiet because they obviously doesn't want a lot of people to find out, because more guys might get the right idea...
In this case, the skipper not only showed 'cojones', but he also took into account the 30 minutes after FDP towards his duty to calculate the minimum rest... :-)
Why you might never have heard of the story? The skipper never got called in because he was in his legal right to do what he did. The company keeps it quiet because they obviously doesn't want a lot of people to find out, because more guys might get the right idea...
Join Date: Mar 1999
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Dispatch crew means a set of crew that comes, sets up the cockpit for you, perform the walk around, order fuel, etc. You just come and start the engines and go...so your duty starts an hour later.
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Laker, have done exactly that several times this year.
I do not refuse discretion. On a day flight, if we are all rested then discretion is a possibility. But on a night flight, I will never use it unless caught in a hold on the return.
Often on these night turns they try to hold the aircraft for pax or bags (or slots).
My call to VPNC is simple. I will do anything I can to operate the flights but discretion is NOT an option.
So VPNC can 1) call in a new crew and wait for the pax etc 2) leaves the pax/bags and we go on time or 3) we can wait and still fly the outbound trip but the airplane will be stuck at the outstation.
VPNC will often say "OK, go and we will try to get them to turn you quickly". My response is always the same - Firstly the block times are often only 5 min longer than the flight times (ridiculous) so they will not be able to speed the turn. BUT--this is YOUR call VPNC! When the aircraft is grounded in India with 300 plus hotel rooms it was YOUR decision! I have given you several options, if you have another idea then throw it out, I am willing to work with you. What I am NOT willing to do is to go into discretion.
They have always decided to leave the bags etc behind!
I don't refuse discretion to be difficult. I refuse because with 90 plus hours per month I know how tired I am am at night and pushing that even further is unsafe.
I do not refuse discretion. On a day flight, if we are all rested then discretion is a possibility. But on a night flight, I will never use it unless caught in a hold on the return.
Often on these night turns they try to hold the aircraft for pax or bags (or slots).
My call to VPNC is simple. I will do anything I can to operate the flights but discretion is NOT an option.
So VPNC can 1) call in a new crew and wait for the pax etc 2) leaves the pax/bags and we go on time or 3) we can wait and still fly the outbound trip but the airplane will be stuck at the outstation.
VPNC will often say "OK, go and we will try to get them to turn you quickly". My response is always the same - Firstly the block times are often only 5 min longer than the flight times (ridiculous) so they will not be able to speed the turn. BUT--this is YOUR call VPNC! When the aircraft is grounded in India with 300 plus hotel rooms it was YOUR decision! I have given you several options, if you have another idea then throw it out, I am willing to work with you. What I am NOT willing to do is to go into discretion.
They have always decided to leave the bags etc behind!
I don't refuse discretion to be difficult. I refuse because with 90 plus hours per month I know how tired I am am at night and pushing that even further is unsafe.
Join Date: Jan 1999
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Taking Control: it's as Trader says so very well..........
How many times do we fly with colleagues who tell us that to refuse discretion is a fast ticket out of EK? We have to break this unwritten belief that discretion must be used.
Handle it as Capt. Trader describes above and things generally go well. It is Commander's Discretion, i.e. yours, to do with as you see fit on the day. Offer VPNC the facts, politely, don't get into an argument, and let them then choose an alternative from the options available. By refusing discretion we are not breaking any rules - all we really need is more of us in the left seat to accept this fact and say no when we feel we should be saying no, and the message will start to get through.
Believe me when I tell you that I am no apologist or defender of this company, but I am another who has said 'no thank you' to a suggestion to extend duty, and zero personal comeback resulted. As long was you handle the issue correctly, they will not hound you for refusing discretion.
'Aviate' your flight - 'Navigate' to the end of your Duty - and 'Communicate' your intention not to (always) offer Discretion.........
Handle it as Capt. Trader describes above and things generally go well. It is Commander's Discretion, i.e. yours, to do with as you see fit on the day. Offer VPNC the facts, politely, don't get into an argument, and let them then choose an alternative from the options available. By refusing discretion we are not breaking any rules - all we really need is more of us in the left seat to accept this fact and say no when we feel we should be saying no, and the message will start to get through.
Believe me when I tell you that I am no apologist or defender of this company, but I am another who has said 'no thank you' to a suggestion to extend duty, and zero personal comeback resulted. As long was you handle the issue correctly, they will not hound you for refusing discretion.
'Aviate' your flight - 'Navigate' to the end of your Duty - and 'Communicate' your intention not to (always) offer Discretion.........
Last edited by Plank Cap; 21st Apr 2015 at 10:25.
