Careful with your bidding ...
Join Date: Sep 2000
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So sad if its true!
@Modesh: It is indeed a ULR flight as it meets the requirement for the same. As such the FDP tables do not apply but the max FDP is 22 hrs. And unfortunately a ULR flight doesn't have to be planned with 4 crew. Reference OM-A Ch 7, annex 7.C.1 (g) and (h). For a flight with a FLIGHT time under 15 hrs 3 pilots are allowed.
@lospilots: As previously stated EK F/O's receive some training in the left seat in order to qualify them to operate from that seat during augment ops although the OM-D doesn't seem to actually mention that as a requirement. The OM-D only states that one must demonstrate practice of drills and procedures which would have been the commanders responsibility and if these differences are not significantly different between the seats then this can be demonstrated in either seat (OM-D 2.1.3.6).
@Schnowzer: Incorrect actually. A commander who is required to operate from the right hand seat has to be trained accordingly. Reference OM-A 5.2.12 and OM-D 2.1.3.6.1 And this training actually has to be done from the RHS.
So unfortunately its all legal! I guess the other question is: Is it smart? Well...
/Will
@Modesh: It is indeed a ULR flight as it meets the requirement for the same. As such the FDP tables do not apply but the max FDP is 22 hrs. And unfortunately a ULR flight doesn't have to be planned with 4 crew. Reference OM-A Ch 7, annex 7.C.1 (g) and (h). For a flight with a FLIGHT time under 15 hrs 3 pilots are allowed.
@lospilots: As previously stated EK F/O's receive some training in the left seat in order to qualify them to operate from that seat during augment ops although the OM-D doesn't seem to actually mention that as a requirement. The OM-D only states that one must demonstrate practice of drills and procedures which would have been the commanders responsibility and if these differences are not significantly different between the seats then this can be demonstrated in either seat (OM-D 2.1.3.6).
@Schnowzer: Incorrect actually. A commander who is required to operate from the right hand seat has to be trained accordingly. Reference OM-A 5.2.12 and OM-D 2.1.3.6.1 And this training actually has to be done from the RHS.
So unfortunately its all legal! I guess the other question is: Is it smart? Well...
/Will
Join Date: Sep 2008
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ULR must be planned 4 crew
Dear Will rogers
I think you may be confusing planned and on the day operations.
All ULRs must be planned 4 crew.
However on the day it may operate 3 crew if one crew member is sick and ...
1. Not ex DXB
2. Flight time less than 15hrs
3. No sig MEL
4. Crew accept to do so.
Ta M
I think you may be confusing planned and on the day operations.
All ULRs must be planned 4 crew.
However on the day it may operate 3 crew if one crew member is sick and ...
1. Not ex DXB
2. Flight time less than 15hrs
3. No sig MEL
4. Crew accept to do so.
Ta M
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In summer they usea shorter overall sector lenght and it changes from ULR to SLR and crew can be reduced to 3. Max duty @15 hrs can't be bothered to check but I'm sure some of the FAA space boys will.
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Dear Modesh,
Actually no. I'm aware of what you're referring to but that's part of the "contingency provisions" (OM-A 7.C.7) where, once more, the max flt time is limited to 15 hrs.
I was referring to OM-A 7.C.1 (g) where it states that for any ULR flight a 3 man crew operation is not permitted for any ULR sector with a scheduled FLIGHT time in excess of 15 hours. Which of course means that for a scheduled flight time of less then 15 hours it is permitted. Law is a wonderful thing to interpret...
That said I agree with you that section (h) of the same paragraph makes it all a bit confusing. The problem here I believe is the lack of the words "must" or "shall" in the OM-A. The only word used is "normally" which doesn't really mean anything.
Don't get me wrong here. I think this is all nuts but I'm just saying that it's actually probably legal subject to a revised ULR operational plan for the pairing in question. Unfortunately!
I stand by to be corrected but I would love a reference if you don't mind.
Cheers,
Will
Actually no. I'm aware of what you're referring to but that's part of the "contingency provisions" (OM-A 7.C.7) where, once more, the max flt time is limited to 15 hrs.
I was referring to OM-A 7.C.1 (g) where it states that for any ULR flight a 3 man crew operation is not permitted for any ULR sector with a scheduled FLIGHT time in excess of 15 hours. Which of course means that for a scheduled flight time of less then 15 hours it is permitted. Law is a wonderful thing to interpret...
That said I agree with you that section (h) of the same paragraph makes it all a bit confusing. The problem here I believe is the lack of the words "must" or "shall" in the OM-A. The only word used is "normally" which doesn't really mean anything.
Don't get me wrong here. I think this is all nuts but I'm just saying that it's actually probably legal subject to a revised ULR operational plan for the pairing in question. Unfortunately!
I stand by to be corrected but I would love a reference if you don't mind.
Cheers,
Will
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Well as a EK FO that trained on type a couple of years ago I can tell you I never received LHS training. It was in fact in the syllabus, but was skipped with the words "it's not a requirement anymore"
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"It's not a requirement anymore"......along with the comprehensive EFB training I'm sure we all received. Still, forcefully removing the paper charts in the sim at least abdicates the responsibility from them and places it firmly at our feet as we muddle through those wonderfully intuitive computers, from whichever seat we're sat in!
Excellence in training? Really? I don't think so but don't let those at the top stop convincing themselves otherwise. I read it in the latest SAFA so I guess it must be true!
Harry
Excellence in training? Really? I don't think so but don't let those at the top stop convincing themselves otherwise. I read it in the latest SAFA so I guess it must be true!
Harry
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Regarding seat qualification, there is no need to be qualified in the seat if you are augmenting and acting as PM.
OMA 8.3.10.2.2.......look for paragraph C.
All shall be revealed, but of course all the book experts here knew that already right?
OMA 8.3.10.2.2.......look for paragraph C.
All shall be revealed, but of course all the book experts here knew that already right?
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9:47 during the night. No different to a night India turn. Not saying it's right just saying we did the same in Europe on the way to TFS or LCA .
Took me close 6 months to get fully back into a normal sleep cycle after my last stint at e/w long haul. I could sleep off a night "there and back" charter within a day or so.
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Left seat training for emergency descent, tcas and engine failure in the cruise was once a requirement for FO's but the sim time ultimately could not be justified, you act as PM when in the LHS. The risk of decompression etc when the right seat pilot leaves the cockpit for a leak was considered too small to justify the training. Have to agree.
short flights long nights
So how does the OM A get approved if the above is correct?
Join Date: Jun 2006
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So when the CAAP says cabin crew shall get 3 1/2 hours rest on any ULR flight does that mean all of our ULRs are illegal?
On the A-380 the FAs are lucky to get 2 1/2 hours of rest. Shocking!
On the A-380 the FAs are lucky to get 2 1/2 hours of rest. Shocking!
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Emphasis on "ULR"
Those rules only apply if you operate a defined "ULR" flight, which one could argue that we don't (with the exception being LAX perhaps).
From CAAP 14:
6.2 Definitions
6.2.1 Ultra Long Range Operation (ULR)
An operation involving any sector between a specific City Pairing (Point A- Point B-Point A) where the scheduled flight time could exceed 16 hours at any time during a calendar year taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.
The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis.
Note: A ULR operation applies to both sectors of a city pair.
From CAAP 14:
6.2 Definitions
6.2.1 Ultra Long Range Operation (ULR)
An operation involving any sector between a specific City Pairing (Point A- Point B-Point A) where the scheduled flight time could exceed 16 hours at any time during a calendar year taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.
The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis.
Note: A ULR operation applies to both sectors of a city pair.
Join Date: Jun 1999
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Emphasis on "ULR"
Those rules only apply if you operate a defined "ULR" flight, which one could argue that we don't (with the exception being LAX perhaps).
From CAAP 14:
6.2 Definitions
6.2.1 Ultra Long Range Operation (ULR)
An operation involving any sector between a specific City Pairing (Point A- Point B-Point A) where the scheduled flight time could exceed 16 hours at any time during a calendar year taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.
The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis.
Note: A ULR operation applies to both sectors of a city pair.
Those rules only apply if you operate a defined "ULR" flight, which one could argue that we don't (with the exception being LAX perhaps).
From CAAP 14:
6.2 Definitions
6.2.1 Ultra Long Range Operation (ULR)
An operation involving any sector between a specific City Pairing (Point A- Point B-Point A) where the scheduled flight time could exceed 16 hours at any time during a calendar year taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.
The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis.
Note: A ULR operation applies to both sectors of a city pair.
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Hi Will,
The statement OM-A 7.C.1 (g)
This simply backs up the statement in the contingency provisions. It is not for planning.
No authority in the world would allow a planned duty of up to 22Hrs with three crew on a regular (normal) basis. (All be it with the restriction of initial flight time<15Hrs)
Sure 3 crew ULR's are allowed in order to get the aircraft back from an outstation if there is late sickness. This is a non-normal situation which is not planned and hence they have the contingency provisions..
1. Not ex DXB
2. Flight time less than 15hrs
3. No sig MEL
4. Crew accept to do so.
Thoughts??
M
The statement OM-A 7.C.1 (g)
A 3 man crew operation is not permitted for any ULR sector with a scheduled Flight Time in excess of 15 hours.
No authority in the world would allow a planned duty of up to 22Hrs with three crew on a regular (normal) basis. (All be it with the restriction of initial flight time<15Hrs)
Sure 3 crew ULR's are allowed in order to get the aircraft back from an outstation if there is late sickness. This is a non-normal situation which is not planned and hence they have the contingency provisions..
1. Not ex DXB
2. Flight time less than 15hrs
3. No sig MEL
4. Crew accept to do so.
Thoughts??
M
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Sorry if i might seem quite basic but if we are kegal to fly three crew we just do it.
Are we into discretion after 15' delay?????
Again, quite basic....we simply dont go into discretion..... Is that complicated????
Are we into discretion after 15' delay?????
Again, quite basic....we simply dont go into discretion..... Is that complicated????