QF DEC's to EK?
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I'm with QF on the B744 and junior, so I'll be in line for an aircraft or rank move. I've not heard the rumour from inside QF and would not give it much credibility.
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QF
"Unlikely you'd leave QF to go to EK...."
There's many Qantas pilots who soon won't have a choice: you can't scrap 70% of your widebody fleet and not shed staff, including pilots.
For some, it will be China Southern, Jetstar or a day job. For others, EK will be a good option. Good luck to you all.
I don't believe the latest DEC rumours and the increase in QF applications are related.
DECs is one solution to increased resignation rates; there are others of course and time will tell which way EK jumps this time.
There's many Qantas pilots who soon won't have a choice: you can't scrap 70% of your widebody fleet and not shed staff, including pilots.
For some, it will be China Southern, Jetstar or a day job. For others, EK will be a good option. Good luck to you all.
I don't believe the latest DEC rumours and the increase in QF applications are related.
DECs is one solution to increased resignation rates; there are others of course and time will tell which way EK jumps this time.
Less than half are on LOA, and some that are have already extended beyond the 3 years.
A friend of mine recently committed suicide- after 12 years at QF he was still a 747 SECOND officer and in danger of losing his job- the pressure, negativity and zero prospects got to him I guess.
I re- met another colleague recently. He had similar time in QF, was a Junior FO on the 767, had been on permanent reserve for five years, and was now looking at being demote to SO.
Being senior at QF would be great- but it's no surprise some of those those with less than 20 years up are looking at the ME.
A friend of mine recently committed suicide- after 12 years at QF he was still a 747 SECOND officer and in danger of losing his job- the pressure, negativity and zero prospects got to him I guess.
I re- met another colleague recently. He had similar time in QF, was a Junior FO on the 767, had been on permanent reserve for five years, and was now looking at being demote to SO.
Being senior at QF would be great- but it's no surprise some of those those with less than 20 years up are looking at the ME.
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Suicide is the leading cause of death in Australia for men under 44 so in the interests of empiricism it seems unlikely you should be mentioning Qantas in relation to the departed. Unless Qantas is the leading employer in Australia of course, in which case there would be some validity.
Of course there was more to it, but the stress of the insecurity in his job was most definitely a factor. He had already been through the collapse of Ansett, was basically unemployable elsewhere as he had no current, applicable experience and at 45 seemed to have no decent career prospects.
Also irrelevant to the purpose of the post- Cerbus wrote that coming to EK would be a come down for any QANTAS pilot- that is clearly, simply untrue. It has been a career dead end for over a decade.
Also irrelevant to the purpose of the post- Cerbus wrote that coming to EK would be a come down for any QANTAS pilot- that is clearly, simply untrue. It has been a career dead end for over a decade.
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If you lose your job it is a no brainier. However when you compare apples to apples EK does not stand up.
A-380 QF Captain. $380,000. 80 hours
A-380 EK Captain. $160,000. 95 hours
A-380 QF SO. $180,000. 80 hours
For the pilots not going to get downgraded or made redundant at QF they would be foolish to come to the sand. Include in your calculations the treatment of Arab style management, no unions, no CASA and a 14 hour plane trip home if you can get on the flights.
A-380 QF Captain. $380,000. 80 hours
A-380 EK Captain. $160,000. 95 hours
A-380 QF SO. $180,000. 80 hours
For the pilots not going to get downgraded or made redundant at QF they would be foolish to come to the sand. Include in your calculations the treatment of Arab style management, no unions, no CASA and a 14 hour plane trip home if you can get on the flights.
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A-380 QF Captain. $380,000. 80 hours
A-380 EK Captain. $160,000. 95 hours
A-380 QF SO. $180,000. 80 hours
A-380 EK Captain. $160,000. 95 hours
A-380 QF SO. $180,000. 80 hours
As you say you also have to factor in the management treatment and living away from home, but on the Qantas side you have to factor in the near zero career progression, and for some the fear of being made redundant.
So for some it will be a no brainer to stay home, and for others it might be very attractive. Not such a simple decision for many.
I wouldn't have thought QF A380 Captains would see EK as attractive from a financial perspective though, but then the grass is ALWAYS greener....
Plus it doesn't all come down to money.
Some of us do the job because we like the job.
I turned down QANTAS 13 years ago. Had I not, there is no question I would be MUCH better off financially.
I also would have spent the lat decade and a half doing a handful of destinations over and over, while not actually flying the aircraft, just being a seat warmer with the occasional honour of climbing or descending, while my family would have had a modest but comfortable existence in a Sydney suburb.
I could by now be an FO on the 767- junior and doing crap routes, but at least getting to fly- until they get rid of the aircraft, then who knows??
None of that is bad- there are far worse ways to make a living.
What I did instead has meant living in four different countries, flying to literally dozens more, doing a lot of very interesting and challenging stuff (EK actually less than some of the European Shorthaul flying!!) and meeting a hell of a lot of interesting people.
My Kids have gotten to travel and experience the world in a much different and more full way than the once a year holiday from Aus would have afforded, and both have gotten a great education along the way.
BUT it's all cost a fortune and we will retire more modestly than we would have if I'd gone the QF route.
Still,I don't regret it for a second, it's been a blast!!
To suggest one route through life is definitively better then another is to forget there are different types of people on the globe.
Some of us do the job because we like the job.
I turned down QANTAS 13 years ago. Had I not, there is no question I would be MUCH better off financially.
I also would have spent the lat decade and a half doing a handful of destinations over and over, while not actually flying the aircraft, just being a seat warmer with the occasional honour of climbing or descending, while my family would have had a modest but comfortable existence in a Sydney suburb.
I could by now be an FO on the 767- junior and doing crap routes, but at least getting to fly- until they get rid of the aircraft, then who knows??
None of that is bad- there are far worse ways to make a living.
What I did instead has meant living in four different countries, flying to literally dozens more, doing a lot of very interesting and challenging stuff (EK actually less than some of the European Shorthaul flying!!) and meeting a hell of a lot of interesting people.
My Kids have gotten to travel and experience the world in a much different and more full way than the once a year holiday from Aus would have afforded, and both have gotten a great education along the way.
BUT it's all cost a fortune and we will retire more modestly than we would have if I'd gone the QF route.
Still,I don't regret it for a second, it's been a blast!!
To suggest one route through life is definitively better then another is to forget there are different types of people on the globe.
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Once Bitten:
It was published in the News Ltd. papers and websites. Qantas cuts was specifically mentioned as a contributing factor. Can't see how it's off limits for this forum.
I see this as a classic 'grass is greener' scenario. Cerbus published numbers that are 1) before tax 2) very debatable and, most importantly, 3) only achievable by a very, very small percentage of the QF pilot population.
Let's compare EK seniority and QF-
<5 years
EK- F/O or junior CPT. F/Os Highy likely to upgrade in the next 5 years.
QF- N/A no hiring in the last 5 years
5-10 years
EK- CPT (A few 380 F/Os in this group treated poorly. But, will upgrade soon)
QF- S/O Facing very real possibility/probablility of losing job in next 6-12 months. If that happens, very limited prospects- S/O time not worth much.
10-15 years
EK- Senior CPT
QF- Junior F/O facing very real possibility/probability of demotion to S/O or, at best, reduction in pay after move to narrowbody.
15-20 years
EK- Senior CPT probably looking hard at contract jobs.....
QF- F/O or very junior CPT about to be demoted or, at best, reduction in pay after move to 737
20-25 years
EK- ????
QF- CPT Likely facing a reduction in pay due a downgrade in A/C type. Constantly having leave assigned at the whim of company. Every time you go to work, faced with colleagues worried sick about losing job, or being demoted, and an extremely bitter employee group.
25-30 years
EK- Are you kidding?
QF- CPT Not going to lose your job but miserable watching demise of company and destruction of your colleagues' careers. Those not on the 380 may face reduction in pay due forced move to 330 or early retirement if they can't face a late career move to Airbus after flying Boeing for years.
30-35 years
EK- You're taking the piss
QF- These are the guys making the coin Cerbus mentioned!!!!
QF A380 Captains won't be coming to EK. But it's not a simple decision for anyone other than those 100 or so guys.
It was published in the News Ltd. papers and websites. Qantas cuts was specifically mentioned as a contributing factor. Can't see how it's off limits for this forum.
I see this as a classic 'grass is greener' scenario. Cerbus published numbers that are 1) before tax 2) very debatable and, most importantly, 3) only achievable by a very, very small percentage of the QF pilot population.
Let's compare EK seniority and QF-
<5 years
EK- F/O or junior CPT. F/Os Highy likely to upgrade in the next 5 years.
QF- N/A no hiring in the last 5 years
5-10 years
EK- CPT (A few 380 F/Os in this group treated poorly. But, will upgrade soon)
QF- S/O Facing very real possibility/probablility of losing job in next 6-12 months. If that happens, very limited prospects- S/O time not worth much.
10-15 years
EK- Senior CPT
QF- Junior F/O facing very real possibility/probability of demotion to S/O or, at best, reduction in pay after move to narrowbody.
15-20 years
EK- Senior CPT probably looking hard at contract jobs.....
QF- F/O or very junior CPT about to be demoted or, at best, reduction in pay after move to 737
20-25 years
EK- ????
QF- CPT Likely facing a reduction in pay due a downgrade in A/C type. Constantly having leave assigned at the whim of company. Every time you go to work, faced with colleagues worried sick about losing job, or being demoted, and an extremely bitter employee group.
25-30 years
EK- Are you kidding?
QF- CPT Not going to lose your job but miserable watching demise of company and destruction of your colleagues' careers. Those not on the 380 may face reduction in pay due forced move to 330 or early retirement if they can't face a late career move to Airbus after flying Boeing for years.
30-35 years
EK- You're taking the piss
QF- These are the guys making the coin Cerbus mentioned!!!!
QF A380 Captains won't be coming to EK. But it's not a simple decision for anyone other than those 100 or so guys.
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cerbus
May I join you on the other side of the see saw? 11 years in the Company, line pilot with housing allowance but have not included the education allowance of 72,000. I clear 66500 per month.
Multiply that figure by 12 and that's around 800K or $218k. 92 hours, not 95 (unless you want me to include 3 hours overtime as well?) That's take home. How much tax does one pay down under on 380K? I think you'll find they come out very similar. Yes, only 80 hours for QF but how many guys can earn that figure after 11 years?
Not saying one's better than the other, just like to have balance in a debate
Harry
May I join you on the other side of the see saw? 11 years in the Company, line pilot with housing allowance but have not included the education allowance of 72,000. I clear 66500 per month.
Multiply that figure by 12 and that's around 800K or $218k. 92 hours, not 95 (unless you want me to include 3 hours overtime as well?) That's take home. How much tax does one pay down under on 380K? I think you'll find they come out very similar. Yes, only 80 hours for QF but how many guys can earn that figure after 11 years?
Not saying one's better than the other, just like to have balance in a debate
Harry
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How much tax does one pay down under on 380K?
So possibly $160k in tax one way or another.
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well, if we want balance than 92 hrs/month in EK on the 380 is also not a realistic average.
as a 380 cpt I flew 830ish hours from Mar 1st 2013 til Feb 28 2014.
the hours for every single month were: 91:35, 77:33, 85:42, 26:30, 19:13, 97:39, 56:30, 99:06, 72:08, 76:38, 69:41, 58:07...(not in this order
)
a couple of sick days and 42 days leave, passed the 92 hrs mark only twice...
tz
as a 380 cpt I flew 830ish hours from Mar 1st 2013 til Feb 28 2014.
the hours for every single month were: 91:35, 77:33, 85:42, 26:30, 19:13, 97:39, 56:30, 99:06, 72:08, 76:38, 69:41, 58:07...(not in this order
)a couple of sick days and 42 days leave, passed the 92 hrs mark only twice...
tz
Last edited by The Zohan; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:34.
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Almost 900 hours, same aircraft, same seat---lots of months with 91 hours. Take away leave and ground work and those months bring the average down. Fact is we never fly less than 85 hours in a month unless there is leave.
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Contacted you must be a company man with your insane dose of reality.
71 hours a month? Give me the drugs you are on because I sure could use them to help me sleep through the night and recover quicker after another all nighter.
I had 3 weeks vacation a few months back and flew 44 hours for the month. Think about how abused I was that month. In 11 days of work I flew 44 hours. Almost a full month at other airlines. I have not been below 90 hours and I know of no one that flies less than me.
We have too many pilots that are over 1000 hours for the year and 25% of the Emirates pilots that are over 900 hours.
Combine that with east-west crossovers, 2am starts, 6am finishes and then do the reverse pattern next week and you have for a very tired work force. It does't matter, Ryan Air pilots love it here.
71 hours a month? Give me the drugs you are on because I sure could use them to help me sleep through the night and recover quicker after another all nighter.
I had 3 weeks vacation a few months back and flew 44 hours for the month. Think about how abused I was that month. In 11 days of work I flew 44 hours. Almost a full month at other airlines. I have not been below 90 hours and I know of no one that flies less than me.
We have too many pilots that are over 1000 hours for the year and 25% of the Emirates pilots that are over 900 hours.
Combine that with east-west crossovers, 2am starts, 6am finishes and then do the reverse pattern next week and you have for a very tired work force. It does't matter, Ryan Air pilots love it here.
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I would love to fly only 71 hours a month. Unfortunately I would have to go to another airline to achieve that.
Again I know of no captain that flies anywhere close to 75 hours a month and just about everybody is well above 90 hours a month.
Again I know of no captain that flies anywhere close to 75 hours a month and just about everybody is well above 90 hours a month.