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What's the reason to apply to QR?

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

What's the reason to apply to QR?

Old 8th May 2012, 18:52
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Galicia
Posts: 50
What's the reason to apply to QR?

In my research, EK and a flagship carrier in AUH provide much better benefit and opportunity to pilots than QR. Furthermore Quality of life in Dubai and Abu Dhabi are better in comparison with Qatar. Even roster and work load.

Nevertheless, many pilots seem to be more interested in QR than EK. Veiws and replies counts prove it. That should mean I am missing QR's merits.

Probably assessment is easier? or After fail in EK's recruit process, no more choice?? or insurance?

Indeed I'm not able to find out the reason why... If I make the pilots who is working for QR feel bad, I apologize for that. My intention is not it. Could anyone shed light for me?

Thanks..
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Old 8th May 2012, 21:01
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Maybe it's due to the fact that some of us just don't meet the minimums Emirates is asking for.
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Old 8th May 2012, 21:24
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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I think it is because QR is in its selection more to the point. Sim check and a face to face interview. If you want to go for Emirates you have to pass silly computertests which apparently are also not that easy.
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Old 8th May 2012, 23:08
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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I can only speak for myself, but I didn't even try Emirates because I was only interested on DEC and Emirates and the other UAE airline were admiting only FO at that time.
That being said, the selection process at Emirates is longer and more compreensive, but I' ve done all of those tests/interviews when applying to my current airline and passed without any problem. So no issues there...
In my opinion, if you look to the expansion plans of QR and also Qatar as a country, your doubts will be cleared. QR is the best bet in terms of future, financial security and quality of living. My belief is that in 5 years both Qatar and QR are going to be better places to live and work than Dubai and EK.
But I may be wrong...
Other opinions are welcome...
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Old 9th May 2012, 01:28
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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It's all relative...

I think it is not an easy answer. For most, the situation is "relative" - perhaps Qatar offers a better situation relative to their CURRENT situation... You can find many pilots in difficult situations these days...

For example, Qatar evidently just hired something like 50 DECs on the A320 fleet from Spanair. Well, with Spanair's bankruptcy and the fact that conditions are getting much worse in Spain and the rest of Europe, Qatar represented a good opportunity for those without a job... Add similar situations at Malev, Air Comet, Olympic and other Euro carriers that have died or are dying... Most European carriers are struggling with cost issues and aggressive LCC competition and most pay packages/benefits will decline over time. It's a fact. Look at all of the Airbus rated pilots at Kingfisher in India who make become jobless soon - many will be attracted to Airbus opportunities and better pay at EK, QR and the other that should not be named. So, you cannot blame someone for wanting to improve their lives in difficult situations... Others are just looking for a temporary situation to assess their future careers - perhaps 3 years in the Gulf at Qatar will serve as a good place to orbit and contemplate their situations for some people...

Some positives about Qatar Airways and living in the Middle East from my research:

- Tax free status with an opportunity to save some money (would be very difficult to return to the UK, France, Italy or the Scandi countries after enjoying tax free status in Qatar or the UAE)

- Most direct living expenses taken care of (villa provided or payment in lieu of a villa for your own accomodations) and most educational expenses covered, etc.

- Better weather most of the time (excluding the burning mid summer in the Middle East - beats the cold winter in Northern Europe)

- Opportunity to see the world (or at least more of the world than you saw at your previous airline if you worked for non-legacies)

- Opportunity to fly newer and more sophisticated aircraft with a faster upgrade time than at most legacies (certainly Europe and North America where it could take 12-15 years to upgrade to the left seat of a narrowbody at a legacy). Big career advancement is actually possible at these airlines - if you qualify and you are hired at EK, it is possible you could fly as Captain on an A380 in 10 years time - that is not possible in Europe by a very long shot. I have read that Qatar will receive 5 787s in 2012 and then something like 1 new 787 every 3 weeks for 4 years (60 total 787s including options). That presents great growth opportunities for pilots...

- More positive economic growth story in the Middle East. Negative growth in Europe and impending doom is depressing. Doha growth is booming for now while Europe is crumbling...

- Great multi-cultural learning opportunity for many people - you will find people from many countries living in these big cities

- If you are single and you live in Dubai, you can live a great lifestyle with fantastic nightlife (I hear Doha and Abu Dhabi are not as vibrant for singles)


Some negatives related to living in the Middle East and flying for EK, QR or EY based on discussions with pilots at each:

- These airlines will work you very hard - up to the edge of the legal limit and you will likely be exhausted a lot of the time (both shorthaul and longhaul)

- Very difficult to commute back to Europe, North/South America, Asia or Australia - probably should try for a longhaul fleet at QR (777, 787 or A330/340) if you want to briefly see some of these places during a layover

- Cultural differences that some people cannot handle

- Very expensive locations - despite living accomodations paid for, Dubai, Doha and Abu Dhabi are expensive and you will burn through some of that tax-free money if you have a family and you want to live "well"

- Family challenges - living far away from home (e.g., UK or Australia) can place strain on many marriages/relationships and I have heard that divorce is quite common as a result. Some people/spouses prefer to stay home forever.

- The perception that these managements view pilots as just another resource - this could be cultural viewpoint or just a simple lack of appreciation like at most airlines (in the ME, you are a cog in the wheel and you can leave when your training bond is paid off...)


These are just a few positives and negatives I could think of based on my research. I am sure there are many more that I have missed... Plus, I wasn't referring to FlyDubai which certainly resembles a European LCC in many respects - like a European LCC but with much hotter weather.

So you can ask yourself some questions: Tired of paying astronomical taxes in Europe? Come to the Middle East... Aspire to fly a Dreamliner some time during your career? Come to the Middle East... Do you want to get out of the LCC rat race (in Europe) and you are tired of the same old LCC destinations and routines? Come to the Middle East... Want a great multi-cultural experience? Come to the Middle East...

But if you expect to not work hard as these managements attempt to squeeze as much productivity out of you as they can - then avoid the Middle East.... Again, based on what I have heard, just expect to work hard if you are employed by one of these airlines - then you will not be so surprised. Just keep your expectations in check.

In the end, do your research and make a choice that fits your personal situation. Sorry if I missed a few things. That's my $0.02.

Last edited by Iver; 9th May 2012 at 04:14.
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Old 9th May 2012, 02:29
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Join Date: Sep 2003
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Im interviewing at both...was hired as DEC for Qatar already.
Both have many pros and cons.
The overall package is better at EK. I believe that EK/Dubai is best place for excitement for your family.
However Doha is changing rapidly for the better and has money to back it up.
Qr has been having a growth rate of 35% per year. With 787, 777, A380, A350s A320 all on order. They will take delivery of new airplane every 15 days.
They were voted best airline of the year for 2011.....they are an up and coming airline, with lots of potential
Time to left seat is definitely a factor and I would be willing to bet it is quicker at this point of the game for QR.
When their new terminal is finished I believe it will help them even more as I have traveled through Doha as a revenue passenger....in First class it is amazing, as economy passenger it is a disappointment....7 months from now that will be changing.
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Old 9th May 2012, 17:17
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Iver says - ''But if you expect to not work hard as these managements attempt to squeeze as much productivity out of you as they can - then avoid the Middle East....''

I've worked for RYR & EZY.. QR simply can't be any worse..

QR was the only ME carrier that I could remain LHS..

Relative to what I'm earning.. it's a pretty huge payrise.. I'm not going to waste my time worrying about the package at EK or anywhere else.. The same as when I'm flying in Europe I'm not fretting about what guys earn at BA or Lufthansa..

Massive well funded expansion..

Plenty more reasons.. but that's what pops into my head..
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Old 9th May 2012, 17:41
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Ditto to Redline in that it is the only proper company I can remain in the LHS.

I don't mind working hard contrary to some, having had 3 fantastic jobs all of which have collapsed I don't want that to happen again.

A new better type rating and terms and conditions. The 320 roster above doesn't frighten me either and as our wonderful industry is imploding I've got far more mates in DOH AUH and DXB than I have at home so even the social life will be better and it's not raining.

Hopefully the unbelievable wait will be worth it, it's what you make of it methinks.....
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Old 10th May 2012, 00:46
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I agree with both Redline and Postern. A DEC job at QR would be a good transition if you qualify for it. There are positives and negatives to every airline job. If, for example, you are a current Iberia Airbus pilot who flies 650-700 hours per year (according to your management ), this A320 roster at QR would be considered a nightmare. You would work so much harder on a "relative" basis when compared to many airlines. But there are other pilots who could fly that roster no problem. Pilots should just be prepared to work hard regardless of fleet because pilot productivity is a top priority. Do your homework and manage your own expectations.

If you can handle the work load and cultural differences, I think there are many benefits to flying for these Middle Eastern airlines - especially for Europeans as aviation in that region is going to the crapper with lower pay and more LCC competition on the horizon. I would expect more pilots from Austrian, Sterling, Germania, SAS, BMIBaby, Olympic/Aegean, Kingfisher and other struggling airlines with diminished wage growth (or future job loss) will be looking at the Middle Eastern airline positions in more detail in the very near future. With LCC domination and a sputtering economy throughout Europe, the Middle Eastern airlines should have their pick of very qualified pilots looking for career growth prospects and marginally better wages/benefits. With Europe faltering, I would go where the growth is...

Plus, if you are going to fly anyway, you might as well fly a nice, new Airbus or Dreamliner fresh off the assembly line. I flew on a BA A320 recently and the interior was old and dilapidated - no wonder the European airlines are afraid of the far nicer EK, QR and EY products.

Last edited by Iver; 10th May 2012 at 00:59.
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Old 10th May 2012, 07:41
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Join Date: Apr 2000
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If you are heading out to the ME one decision to make is DEC at QR versus RHS at EK (assuming you don't meet EK DEC criteria).

Initially the DEC route at QR seems better but if you plan to stay in the Middle East for a longish time i.e. 5 years + then RHS EK may be a better option. It is generally accepted that the lifestyle in DXB, socially (things to do,places to go etc), domestically (better villa allowance, more school choice, better shopping for wifey) professionally (more fleet choice and route choice) and financially (better T's and C's, allowances) can be considered better.

Therefore, a 2-3yr period back in the RHS learning the routes/airline etc then many years as CPT on either A380 or B777 should perhaps be seriously considered.
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Old 10th May 2012, 08:08
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Yes but I doubt that its 2-3 years in the right seat at EK anymore. Someone made a calculation on future deliveries vs command opportunities and if you join now you might not get an upgrade before the fleet is becoming stagnant. Something to keep in mind.....
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Old 10th May 2012, 09:43
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@giovane regarding route and fleet choices, I would think that Qatar is actually a better option, within 3-4 years Qatar airways will have the largest route structure of any middle east airline. They have already caught up to EK and are adding new destinations at a phenomenal rate. EK: 115 destinations QR: 115 with the stated intention of ~160 within 3 years

The fleets will look like this during the same time period:

QR

A319/20/21 (including NEOs)
A330 (a330F?)
A350 (launch customer EIS 2013/2014)
A380 (2013)
B777
B787 (arriving in a couple of months)

EK

A330/340
A350
A380
B747F
B777

The other big player in the ME close by to DXB, is no where near as ambitious, nor does it have the quality or capacity to compete with these two. Going forward QR and EK will be in a class of their own.
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Old 10th May 2012, 11:07
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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giovanne

what makes you think that in 2-3 years, or even 4-5 for that matter, is the probable time to wait for LHS at EK??
In Recent EK roadshows across Europe they were selling the idea that 5 years was a fair estimate but this was before the 150 DEC announcement and delayed/suspended A380 deliveries.
From some friends recently admited at EK as FO they think that now a 8-9 years is a more real estimate to cope with...
In terms of quality and style of living for you and your family, Dubai is still the best choice but if you've been recently in Doha you can easily predict it won't be like that for longer. More or less like EK and QR, the Dubai airline is rapidly loosing ground to its competitor!
And I won't even mention aircraft orders...

Nice landings
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Old 10th May 2012, 11:23
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Everyone has their own reasons, for the choices they make, but why QR for me... Pretty simple. Some reasons compete with other ME carriers, some with western carriers.

Company
- Very fast growing
- Rated very highly both locally and internationally
- Sensible business model with their smaller aircraft being able to access routes unfeasible on a pure wide body fleet
- Highly competitive route structure
- Stable career
- Reasonably fast command
- Lots of capacity for growth
- Lower recruitment threshold (A320 for less experienced guys)
- Sensible recruitment process but maintain high standards
- Free accommodation or allowance
- etc etc....

Country
- Built on wealth and not debt
- rapid expansion plans over the next few years
- expanding based on commerce, science, health and education, not the volatile tourism industry
- 0 tax
- Weather/Climate
- etc etc...

I believe that the country and the company will grow so significantly in the next 5 years they will overshadow what they are today. t will be very surprised if in 5 years we look at Qatar and it does not overshadow Dubai and it's competitors in terms of amenities, comfort, job opportunity and 'sparklieness'.

For rapid progression, you have to predict where a company will be in 5 - 10 years. QR is a known quantity, the orders are there, the country has an obvious goal and I'm in the right place to take advantage of that and be part of it.

But like I said, each to his own

edited to correct spelling
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Old 10th May 2012, 12:06
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DEC ... only QR is hiring!
Right seat ... it all depends on how many years you want to invest in ME. On the long run (7-12 years) QR looks probably a better deal.



Doha vs Dubai ... life is what you wanna make out of it ... and DXB-DOH is a very easy commuting either way!
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Old 10th May 2012, 12:07
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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SELF satisfaction

Dear All,
I BELIVE BOTH COMPANIES HAVE NEGATIVE AND POSITIVE THINGS, BUT THE MAIN ISSUE IN THIS ME IS THE SELF SATISFACTION , MEANING THE TREATMENT.

THIS SALVERY LIFE THAT EVERYONE IS HAVING IS DISRESPECTFULL, THESE PEOPLE THEY INVEST A LOT OF MONEY OPENING DESTINATION AND BUYING NEW A/Cs BUT NO INVESMENT ON HUMAN FACTOR ie MAKING PEOPLE HAPPY.

JUST LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF QUALIFIED PILOTS THESE COMPANIES LOST IN THE PAST YEARS DUE ( rosters, days off , leave , housing ... etc)

IT'S SAD COZ THEY COULD BE THE BEST SINCE THE MONEY IS NOT THE THRET FOR THEM ..

GOD BLESS U ALL,
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Old 10th May 2012, 12:30
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Thank you very much for all dedicated replies..

Potatowings, I respect your opinion. Let me know futher.

- Lower recruitment threshold (A320 for less experienced guys)
I have 2500TT and 2300hrs in only a320. Could I expect to be assigned to a widebody instead of a320 in QR?

Last edited by enthusiast; 10th May 2012 at 12:43.
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Old 10th May 2012, 13:06
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Join Date: May 2012
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Just to reiterate what others have said. QR have lower minimum requirements, the lowest of the big three, and amongst the lowest in the Middle East.

Another determining factor is how long it takes to move through the system, from application to interview to joining date. For the last few years, whenever a decent sized airline has gone bankrupt, QR has been the first to be on their doorstep to fast track the pilots through the selection process. Beggars can't be choosers, and the majority of these guys, if given the choice, would probably have chosen EK over QR.
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Old 10th May 2012, 13:15
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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enthusiast

Don't even bother with that hypothesis...
You definetly will be offered the 320, because of the shorter course you'll have to attend to... But in terms of salary will be better for you because you won't have any bond or salary deduction!
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Old 10th May 2012, 13:29
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Join Date: May 2004
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Since on topic, am i right in saying that the EK provident fund annialates the End of service benefit with QR? As in, no comparision, EK hands down?

Long term, i think thats worth mentioning.
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