Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Middle East
Reload this Page >

Prestige Jet- All Merged Threads

Wikiposts
Search
Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Prestige Jet- All Merged Threads

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 12th Nov 2011, 15:00
  #381 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 51
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hang in there, Mates

Hang in there, KF and Mates - the wheels of justice grind slowly around here but these people will get what they deserve. Hopefully, so will we.
Waste Management is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2011, 09:20
  #382 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Uganda
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Conclusion Based on I don't know!!

I don't know about the previous years conditions,
I think the guys that were here that just pissed and moaned and had shown to be a problem instead of just going with the flow have been the ones to take a bullet!
Captcal, I like your scientific mind and how you draw a conclusion regarding the "guys that were here" based on not knowing "about the previous years" which you "don't know about".

One more thing; I presume you are an American. I suggest that you go back to numerous posts in this thread by Faris Deeb's where he collectively insulted all American professionals and asked them to go back to their country just because they tried to complain about their rights denied by PJ management. What is more interesting is the fact that many of them were close friends of Faris Deeb and used to defend him in more than one occasion! So my advice to you is not to make judgements yet. You are still living the honey moon with PJ management, and please, watch your back. PJ management is a professional backstabber.

Last edited by EX TERMINATOR; 16th Nov 2011 at 19:17.
EX TERMINATOR is offline  
Old 16th Nov 2011, 12:54
  #383 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: All over
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hey Cal, ask your dispatchers or ground ops people if they had received their salary...
BeCareful is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2011, 12:58
  #384 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Abu Dhabi
Age: 49
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just the Facts, Ma'am

Capt. Cal, please be informed that most comments in this thread are made by current and former employees who likewise started out with much enthusiasm, confidence and hope for the best. It is not rhetoric by third parties.

Unfortunately, at some point we stopped getting paid regularly, then we stopped getting paid altogether. This is not idle gossip, chatter and rumor-mongering: a number of us are in possession of judgments against the company for moneys owed - meaning that the UAE Labour Department and Courts of Abu Dhabi have examined the claims and found them to be true and actionable, and have initiated collection procedures against the company.

We wish you success in your tenure and operation, but please do not denigrate us or our efforts to receive what we are owed, which have been endorsed as correct, appropriate and due to us by Labour Ministry and the Courts. We only went to these organizations after months and months of promises and reneges by the company left us with no other choice.

We are no less qualified, professional or dedicated than you. We just want the pay which is owed us for the flying we have done on behalf of Prestige Jet - all safely, despite the the pressures, distractions, lack of organizational support and turmoil.

Thank you.
KangarooFlyer is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2011, 21:16
  #385 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: All over
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Oh yes, one other thing Cal... how is it legal to fly those LCA charters for Prestige Jet in a N-registered aircraft?

Don't put your license on the line for these people... they aren't worth it.
BeCareful is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2011, 21:20
  #386 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: yomamas
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
CaptCal is legit. Right.
yomama is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 06:39
  #387 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 51
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
FAR Review

As Captcal is familiar with US Federal Air Regulations 91, 121 and 135, then he no doubt knows that FAR 135 has been effectively eliminated and that flying commercial charters under FAR 91 is strictly prohibited.

If Captcal is operating the B737 under FAR Part 91 for Prestige Jet on the Larnaca trips and Prestige Jet is marketing and selling charters on the aircraft, as it was doing openly and aggressively at the Dubai Air Show, Captcal is operating the aircraft in contravention to the FARs. In order to be held out as a commercial aircraft available for charter by the public and to be actually hired out for remuneration, the aircraft must be operated under FAR Part 121, which requires it to be on an AOC and Ops Specs of a carrier qualified to operate an N-registered aircraft in commercial service.

Same is true under GCAA regulations if it were an A6-registered aircraft: the aircraft has to be operating under some AOC and Ops Specs.As an N-registered aircraft operating under US FAR Part 91, it is not.

Oops.
Waste Management is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 07:29
  #388 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In order to be held out as a commercial aircraft available for charter by the public and to be actually hired out for remuneration, the aircraft must be operated under FAR Part 121
Not true.....


then he no doubt knows that FAR 135 has been effectively eliminated
Would you care to expand on this statement?

If you have legitimate concerns, then I suggest you write to SAFA.

Mutt
mutt is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 08:54
  #389 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 51
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Tell Me What I Am Missing, Part 91

§ 91.501 Applicability.

(a) This subpart prescribes operating rules, in addition to those prescribed in other subparts of this part, governing the operation of large airplanes of U.S. registry, turbojet-powered multiengine civil airplanes of U.S. registry, and fractional ownership program aircraft of U.S. registry that are operating under subpart K of this part in operations not involving common carriage. The operating rules in this subpart do not apply to those aircraft when they are required to be operated under parts 121, 125, 129, 135, and 137 of this chapter. (Section 91.409 prescribes an inspection program for large and for turbine-powered (turbojet and turboprop) multiengine airplanes and turbine-powered rotorcraft of U.S. registry when they are operated under this part or part 129 or 137.)

(b) Operations that may be conducted under the rules in this subpart instead of those in parts 121, 129, 135, and 137 of this chapter when common carriage is not involved, include—

(1) Ferry or training flights;

(2) Aerial work operations such as aerial photography or survey, or pipeline patrol, but not including fire fighting operations;

(3) Flights for the demonstration of an airplane to prospective customers when no charge is made except for those specified in paragraph (d) of this section;

(4) Flights conducted by the operator of an airplane for his personal transportation, or the transportation of his guests when no charge, assessment, or fee is made for the transportation;

(5) Carriage of officials, employees, guests, and property of a company on an airplane operated by that company, or the parent or a subsidiary of the company or a subsidiary of the parent, when the carriage is within the scope of, and incidental to, the business of the company (other than transportation by air) and no charge, assessment or fee is made for the carriage in excess of the cost of owning, operating, and maintaining the airplane, except that no charge of any kind may be made for the carriage of a guest of a company, when the carriage is not within the scope of, and incidental to, the business of that company;

(6) The carriage of company officials, employees, and guests of the company on an airplane operated under a time sharing, interchange, or joint ownership agreement as defined in paragraph (c) of this section;

(7) The carriage of property (other than mail) on an airplane operated by a person in the furtherance of a business or employment (other than transportation by air) when the carriage is within the scope of, and incidental to, that business or employment and no charge, assessment, or fee is made for the carriage other than those specified in paragraph (d) of this section;

(8) The carriage on an airplane of an athletic team, sports group, choral group, or similar group having a common purpose or objective when there is no charge, assessment, or fee of any kind made by any person for that carriage; and

(9) The carriage of persons on an airplane operated by a person in the furtherance of a business other than transportation by air for the purpose of selling them land, goods, or property, including franchises or distributorships, when the carriage is within the scope of, and incidental to, that business and no charge, assessment, or fee is made for that carriage.

(10) Any operation identified in paragraphs (b)(1) through (b)(9) of this section when conducted—

(i) By a fractional ownership program manager, or

(ii) By a fractional owner in a fractional ownership program aircraft operated under subpart K of this part, except that a flight under a joint ownership arrangement under paragraph (b)(6) of this section may not be conducted. For a flight under an interchange agreement under paragraph (b)(6) of this section, the exchange of equal time for the operation must be properly accounted for as part of the total hours associated with the fractional owner's share of ownership.

(c) As used in this section—

(1) A time sharing agreement means an arrangement whereby a person leases his airplane with flight crew to another person, and no charge is made for the flights conducted under that arrangement other than those specified in paragraph (d) of this section;

(2) An interchange agreement means an arrangement whereby a person leases his airplane to another person in exchange for equal time, when needed, on the other person's airplane, and no charge, assessment, or fee is made, except that a charge may be made not to exceed the difference between the cost of owning, operating, and maintaining the two airplanes;

(3) A joint ownership agreement means an arrangement whereby one of the registered joint owners of an airplane employs and furnishes the flight crew for that airplane and each of the registered joint owners pays a share of the charge specified in the agreement.

(d) The following may be charged, as expenses of a specific flight, for transportation as authorized by paragraphs (b) (3) and (7) and (c)(1) of this section:

(1) Fuel, oil, lubricants, and other additives.

(2) Travel expenses of the crew, including food, lodging, and ground transportation.

(3) Hangar and tie-down costs away from the aircraft's base of operation.

(4) Insurance obtained for the specific flight.

(5) Landing fees, airport taxes, and similar assessments.

(6) Customs, foreign permit, and similar fees directly related to the flight.

(7) In flight food and beverages.

(8) Passenger ground transportation.

(9) Flight planning and weather contract services.

(10) An additional charge equal to 100 percent of the expenses listed in paragraph (d)(1) of this section.

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34314, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91–280, 68 FR 54560, Sept. 17, 2003]
Waste Management is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 08:59
  #390 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 51
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The Comment About Part 135 Being Effectively Phased Out

PART 135—OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: COMMUTER AND ON DEMAND OPERATIONS AND RULES GOVERNING PERSONS ON BOARD SUCH AIRCRAFT

Subpart A—General

§ 135.2 Compliance schedule for operators that transition to part 121 of this chapter; certain new entrant operators.

(a) Applicability. This section applies to the following:

(1) Each certificate holder that was issued an air carrier or operating certificate and operations specifications under the requirements of part 135 of this chapter or under SFAR No. 38–2 of 14 CFR part 121 before January 19, 1996, and that conducts scheduled passenger-carrying operations with:

....

(b) Obtaining operations specifications. A certificate holder described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section may not, after March 20, 1997, operate an airplane described in paragraphs (a)(1)(i), (a)(1)(ii), or (a)(1)(iii) of this section in scheduled passenger-carrying operations, unless it obtains operations specifications to conduct its scheduled operations under part 121 of this chapter on or before March 20, 1997.

(c) Regular or accelerated compliance. Except as provided in paragraphs (d), and (e) of this section, each certificate holder described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall comply with each applicable requirement of part 121 of this chapter on and after March 20, 1997 or on and after the date on which the certificate holder is issued operations specifications under this part, whichever occurs first. Except as provided in paragraphs (d) and (e) of this section, each person described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall comply with each applicable requirement of part 121 of this chapter on and after the date on which that person is issued a certificate and operations specifications under part 121 of this chapter.
Waste Management is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 12:18
  #391 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm not questioning FAR91, thats for non-commercial aircraft, in fact, something like the BBJ should be privately operated under FAR125.

As for your comment on FAR135, you are quoting FAR135-2, look at 135-1. However, regardless of the FAR status of the aircraft, what is stopping them from operating it under their own UAE AOC?

I have nothing to do with PJ, and I utterly despise companies who don't pay employees, however if you are going to win your battle, you have to do it right.

Good Luck.

Mutt
mutt is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 13:34
  #392 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 51
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cheers, Mutt.

The passage of FAR 135 which I've quoted forced operators of aircraft of between 10 and 19 seats and all turbine-powered aircraft to upgrade to FAR 121, leaving only non-turbine aircraft of 9 seats or less eligible for 135. Therefore, it is relevant to this discussion.

Part 125 allows an operator of a private aircraft to hire the aircraft out but only to a private customer. Holding the aircraft out for public hire or having multiple private customers makes it ineligible for Part 125 operation:


§ 125.11 Certificate eligibility and prohibited operations.

(a) No person is eligible for a certificate or operations specifications under this part if the person holds the appropriate operating certificate and/or operations specifications necessary to conduct operations under part 121, 129 or 135 of this chapter.

(b) No certificate holder may conduct any operation which results directly or indirectly from any person's holding out to the public to furnish transportation.

(c) No person holding operations specifications under this part may operate or list on its operations specifications any aircraft listed on any operations specifications or other required aircraft listing under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter.

[Doc. No. 19779, 45 FR 67235, Oct. 9, 1980 as amended by Amdt. 125–9, 52 FR 20028, May 28, 1987]


The reason this has arisen in the discussion is that the CEO of the company has insisted that he is permitted to operate this B737 in commercial charter service under FAR 91 and the aircraft, which is N-registered, is being openly offered on the commercial market around the Middle East and Europe, which makes it ineligible for FAR 91 or FAR 125 operation. You are correct that it could be operated under the UAE AOC, if it were placed under the UAE AOC's Ops Specs and meets all of the requirements for operating such an aircraft under GCAA regulations for commercial services, same as are met by the large airlines like Emirates, Etihad, Air Arabia, etc. - including the question of acceptability of a non-A6-registered transport category aircraft to be operated on the commercial Ops Specs of a UAE certificate holder.

Last edited by Waste Management; 20th Nov 2011 at 13:46.
Waste Management is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 14:42
  #393 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The passage of FAR 135 which I've quoted forced operators of aircraft of between 10 and 19 seats and all turbine-powered aircraft to upgrade to FAR 121, leaving only non-turbine aircraft of 9 seats or less eligible for 135. Therefore, it is relevant to this discussion.
Sorry but I dont agree with this, the important words in the FAR you quoted are that conducts scheduled passenger-carrying operations On demand operators still use 135.

insisted that he is permitted to operate this B737 in commercial charter service under FAR 91
As you have stated, this is totally illegal. We operate under FAR91 (Local Equivalent), we are only permitted to carry guests of the owners, not commercial passengers. We also have to be in a position to PROVE this to European Authorities...... Our on-demand charters operate under 135 but in a different fleet of aircraft.

Have a look at this....
EASA - Safety Assessment Of Foreign Aircraft (EC SAFA Programme)

Mutt
mutt is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 15:37
  #394 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 51
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My Opinion Only

Dear Mutt,

It appears that we have no argument. As the full corporate name of Prestige Jet is Prestige Jet Rental and its business is to fly charter aircraft for hire, all of my comments above have been addressed to the issue of an N-registered all-business class B737-500 (not VIP-configured BBJ) operated on commercial services which is openly offered for hire to the public at large, as well as the aviation community.

I agree that anybody can fly any aircraft they want for their own private purposes, under applicable regulations. But any N-registered turbine-powered aircraft offered for public hire must be operated under an AOC and Ops Specs pursuant to the applicable regulations. By all accounts, this aircraft is an N-registered aircraft being operated on behalf of a UAE and/or Jordanian company under no AOC or Ops Specs, with the operator claiming that it is possible to do so under US Federal Air Regulations Part 91.

I do not know how true this is, since one has difficulty believing anything uttered by this operator, but if it is, then it should be an issue for both FAA and GCAA - in my opinion. I could be wrong....

But, let's face it, what I think doesn't matter or count for much, if anything. It is whether the appropriate authorities agree with this analysis of the regulations and whether they have the concern and motivation to do anything about it, that counts.

Cheers, Mate.
Waste Management is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 16:39
  #395 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Your nearest Marriott
Posts: 1,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"We also have to be in a position to PROVE this to European Authorities....."

Hi Mutt, I am interested in how you are able to do this?

Is the WE you speak of, the crew - or the company?
I.R.PIRATE is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 18:00
  #396 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Is the WE you speak of
The crew

You can read other threads about passengers getting interviewed on arrival in Europe about their involvement with the owner of the aircraft.

Download the SAFA Guidance and you will see what else is expected of you.

Mutt.
mutt is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 19:26
  #397 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Your nearest Marriott
Posts: 1,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Got the SAFA guidance on hand, I just wonder how it is possible in certain employment set-ups to actually get that info without treading on owner's toes. Pilots are not always privy to the goings on behind the scene between the owner and somebody that he might deem a guest. Owner says fly this guest, on my plane - who am I to argue?
I.R.PIRATE is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 20:00
  #398 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Uganda
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well Said

It is whether the appropriate authorities agree with this analysis of the regulations and whether they have the concern and motivation to do anything about it, that counts
WM,
This is well said. However, It goes beyond an analysis that is the initiative of a professional individual. On several occasions official documents with PJ stamps were transmitted to authorities bearing proofs that PJ commercially operated N-registered aircraft that had not been put on their AOC. Aircraft details, flight details, names of passengers and destinations were all mentioned in said documents. What actions were taken? The answer can be concluded by PJ continuing to commit this plus other numerous violations.
Anyway, it is amuzing how PJ management referred to their clients as "guests" in an attempt to cover their fraudulant practices.
EX TERMINATOR is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2011, 23:02
  #399 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 51
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Who Cares?

This aircraft was stopped and fined recently in Europe because the flight attendant(s) was not type-rated to be working as air crew on this aircraft type.

So it appears that everybody cares except GCAA.
Waste Management is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2011, 13:06
  #400 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Abu Dhabi
Age: 49
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Happy Thanksgiving, Yanks

Happy Thanksgiving to our Yank mates, who have been maligned at times in this thread. All the the ones with whom I have worked here are highly professional, dedicated and work very hard in order to serve the customers, often requiring use of the proverbial Yankee Ingenuity as well as long days figuring out how to make things work. Good on ya!

KF
KangarooFlyer is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.